mixer440

Wouldn't mind some idea on a new ride.


I've been riding a mid 80's Trek 830 Chrome-Moly "Hybrid" frame for years. It was always a bit undersized and things are old/worn. I'd have to put in half the money as a new one in a similar category to keep it running.

I use my bike for exercise/daily enjoyment. Usually under 10 miles with some hills. Other times on flat dusty, gravel and dirt----or just plain crappy paved roads. Don't commute. I wouldn't be using it for narrow, steep, log hopping trails. Budget: $500-800

What I've seen

Checked the Trek FX 2,3 (7.2, 7.3) line and while nice, they seem jarring and sensitive to the lousy roads around here.

Checked the Specialized Sirrus Sport, but the feel wasn't quite there either. I felt too erect or something weird.

Impressed and spoiled by the feel of the Giant Tough Road SRL-2. The SRL-2 was silky smooth, but I was a bit nervous about trashing the carbon fiber fork. No offense to the ladies, but I don't want to put a pretty pink dress on it. About $150-200 over my budget.

Also looked at a Jamis Coda Sport and Comp. Both had a nice feel and ride, but I'm wondering about those times I want some dirt and gravel.

Frame seems to be the most important, since I'd probably be able to upgrade entry level components (exception: disc brakes)

A couple of questions/ideas.....

How well do these bikes hold up ? My current Trek chrome-moly bike with all metal components has literally lasted 30 years in crazy conditions. And, I've done the minimum maintenance.

Seems disc brakes are great for reducing rim wear. Is rim wear more of an issue on newer modern bikes ?

Just how "tender" do you need to treat bikes with carbon fiber forks? Half the time, I just lay my existing bike on it's side in the car.

Since most of these bikes feel too nimble, would putting fatter tires on one help and can the rims handle the crappy roads, bumps anyway ?


Hoping for some opinions and directions here. Thanks

Pendergast

If you like the Giant ToughRoad, don't worry about trashing the fork. Just laying the bike on its side in your car isn't going to hurt it. A couple of my gravel and off-road bikes have carbon forks. One is a geared XC bike that I put a carbon fork on in place of its suspension fork--it's similar to a ToughRoad. The other is a rigid singlespeed mountain bike. Carbon forks are pretty rugged.

If you want to stick with steel and don't mind buying mail-order, Jenson has a nice deal on the chromoly version of the Kona Big Rove. Kona Big Rove Bike 2015 > Bikes > Commuter & Urban Bikes | Jenson USA


Disc brakes aren't really for reducing rim wear although they do that. Good disc brakes just perform better than rim brakes, especially in wet conditions. They provide better control(modulation.) They require less hand pressure on the levers, especially hydraulic disc brakes.

Most bikes will take tires fatter than the ones they come with, so if you find a bike you like but would prefer tires a bit wider, ask the shop how much wider tires the bike will fit. Some will fit tires a lot wider, some only a little wider.

(Actually, all of my gravel/offroad rigid bikes have carbon forks. Forgot about my CAADX.)

idiotekniQues

I'm a Jamis Coda fan, having bought a used Coda Elite early last summer after riding a bunch of bikes - so I would choose the Coda Comp. I think the Jamis line is a great entry way into the land of hybrids and steel frames. Nice riding position, aggressive enough to get some power going and upright enough to see traffic well when riding in urban areas.

I had a Gary Fisher Kaitai for 3 years prior (think an $850 version of a Trek DS bike) and in that price range I easily notice a difference on the ride between the steel frame vs aluminum frame like it seems you have.

This is a source of contention for some - a lot of folks feel the difference in road feel on different material frames, mostly steel vs aluminum. Conversely there are variations in frame quality in that you may find differences amongst different frames of the same material - some would have better road feel than others all things being equal. A great aluminum frame could feel much nicer than a lesser quality aluminum frame.

I spent a summer riding all sorts of Treks, Cannondales and Jamis hybrids, plus others, while working at an LBS. A to B'ing them to test for ride and feel. This was primarily from bikes at $500-$1100.

At that time I had the aluminum Gary Fisher Kaitai as well. The steel was superior at those price points vs all other hybrid aluminum frames from Trek FX's to Cannondale Quicks and some Specialized and Giants and Scotts I rode as well. We sold Trek and Cannondale and Jamis, so I did the most A/B'ing with those. The only time a hybrid came close in ride feel was when I got to try a carbon fiber Trek FX - I think it was the 7.7FX at that time. That was closer to $2K though. Not sure if they have that model now - this was 4-5 years ago.

Things like slight differences in tire size, saddle and grips could also affect road feel quality but there was something fundamentally different about the feel of steel. This was confirmed amongst a lot of customers as well. These customers rode steel bikes from $500 Coda's to $8000 custom jobs. This LBS was in an affluent areas so there were a lot of high end bikes around.

Jamis puts out a nice quality frame at that price point you are in IMO and in the opinion of various LBS I have visited as well. So you aren't getting a crappy steel frame from Jamis. It's a Reynold 520 chromoly frame which is respected.

Jamis, being a smaller brand, tends to also give you higher level components than a similarly priced bike from one of the big boys like Trek or Cannondale as they have to differentiate themselves. And Jamis is not a boutique smaller brand that can price very high, so they fight for your dollars with better components at equal price points. Giant seems to be an exception to that rule, as one of the major manufacturers they are known to give great bang for buck components on their whips as well.

As far as riding on dirt and gravel that would be easy - simply take a change of tires. You can usually cut a deal with your LBS so that you can get new tires on the bike right away, and they keep the new stock tires from your new whip - for a small difference in price.

You shouldn't have issues with rim wear with rim brakes for a looooooooooong time. As far as carbon fiber forks they seem very durable. When I saw carbon crack while working at the LBS it was always on the frame, never the fork. From what I know the rims should be fine getting banged around - most hybrids at those price points use heavier rims with a higher spoke count than road bikes. It's mostly when you get into the pricier hybrids, think carbon, where some brands start throwing on lighter wheels with lower spoke counts.

Good luck!

coominya

It would be interesting to have that old trek frame x-rayed for fatigue cracks, especially the fork. As for Giant's carbon forks, well Giant warrants their frame and rigid forks to be free from defects in material and workmanship for as long as the original purchaser owns the bike, so if a problem ever did arise you'd be given a new one. Conversely, I can't imagine they wouldn't offer such a warranty if they were prone to failure.

I think it's human nature to want to hang onto something that has performed well for years, but that in itself isn't reason enough to do it. A friend of mine lost a small fortune on stocks because he didn't realize the company was rotting away on the inside. He was quite surprised when they went bankrupt, to use his own words, "they had always been so faithful with the dividend"

Honestly I think you wouldn't regret getting a nice new bike.

DaveQ24

You might want to check out the Sp. Crosstrail Disc or Sport / I think my Crosstrail rides better than my Sirrus in some ways. And I find it a very comfortable bike - fork lockout is great for smooth conditions - unlocked great shock absorption.

FXjohn

I would have to say buy new.

mixer440

Thanks all for the points and ideas. I re-rode the Specialized Sirrus Sport and the Giant Tough Road SLR 2 today.

Again, I'm looking for about 20% gravel/dirt/dust and the rest on rough paved roads. No trails, no logs, no creeks. Used primarily for fun and fitness. Rain or shine. Under 10 miles 3x/week. Some short hills.

After riding them around, I found that each one would work just fine for me except for the fork differences (below). Both models have similar components including hydraulic disc brakes. There are some differences between the 2016 and 17 models.

Here's what I'm thinking if you want to chime in.

For sure the 2016 Sirrus Sport is more sensitive to the road with its aluminum fork. The 2017 is supposed to have a carbon fork, so that should dampen things a bit.

On the other hand the Giant Tough Road SLR 2 has a composite fork (not sure what that is) and that helps a lot.

That makes them pretty darn close and a difficult decision for me unless I've missed some differences in companies...etc.

The one thing that stands out is the tire width. The Tough Road has 2.0 tires and the Sirrus Sport has 32's. I suppose I could put on maybe 35's on the Sirrus Sport, but does that make sense ? Why should I or shouldn't I do that ? Unless my thinking is faulty, it seems that having the extra space on the Tough Road is a good thing, especially if you decide you want fenders.

I also rechecked the Jamis Coda lineup. Nice bikes. Better components, but no disc brakes. Chrome-Moly so pretty light for what I want. Not as sensitive to the road. Good ride. But the issue is still the tires and maybe the durability of the frame. Not sure if these bikes are intended to be on gravel or dirt.

All things being somewhat equal in feel, then for me, it comes down to tire size and why I might want a larger width tire ??

mixer440

........It would be interesting to have that old trek frame x-rayed for fatigue cracks, especially the fork.

How true. Maybe the frame has issues. It sure rides good, but too small for me. Why I rode it for so long is baffling.

idiotekniQues

I don't think tire size is the main issue because that is cheaply and easily replaced at the point of purchase. What's more important is the overall feel of the bike while test riding it. It's more the available tire clearance you have to use when and if you want to. Tires come and go.

I don't ride gravel. I'm more likely to hit cobblestone than gravel, and my 28's do fine there - there is tightly packed gravel, loosely packed gravel, etc... I like skinnier tires so I would go with 35's with some tread, and call it a day for gravel. But that's just based upon research which includes what a lot of gravel riders do, not real-life experience.

I'd definitely prefer disc brakes, especially if you are riding in all kinds of weather on a regular basis. If you can't increase your budget I'd think about the Kona posted in post #2 and get the steel and discs. If you can spend another 250, I'd go Jamis Coda Elite to get the discs plus the steel plus the components. If you don't want to go Kona or increase your budget I'd go with the Sirrus Sport Disc 2017 with the carbon fork and have the LBS put on 35's for you out the door.

mixer440

......If you don't want to go Kona or increase your budget I'd go with the Sirrus Sport Disc 2017 with the carbon fork and have the LBS put on 35's for you out the door.........

Good ideas idiotekniQues, points taken.

Is there a reason you would get the Sport over the ToughRoad Giant ?

I have gotten some conflicting information from the LBS's. Most say that the difference between a 32 and 35 would be negligible, and that if I ever wanted fenders I'd be out of luck due to the clearance using 38's. It does appear tight near the bracket. If that is all true, then my only choice would be the Giant unless I start over.

Perhaps, I'm not thinking about what I need in terms of tires anyway. What I do know are the conditions: Rough city roads, dirt/gravel paths sometimes, rain.. I suppose the larger width knobby Continentals on my Trek (above) spoiled me and I'm probably used to that feel.

Again, thanks for the comments.

Pendergast

If you have a Marin dealer nearby, here's another steel possibility:

https://www.marinbikes.com/us/bikes/d...6-muirwoods-29

idiotekniQues

I'd rather have a 2x9 of the Specialized than a 3x9 of the Giant. Just cause unless it's really hilly I think 3x in the front is overkill. Hell I ride a 1x9 on mostly flats with some hills that are easily conquered with a 1x9. Plus 50C tires are a bit of overkill for me for urban and dirt trails.

I ride the bike paths and Central Park and the rough pothole ridden NYC streets on 28's at high pressure. My friends ride Fuji single speeds on the same routes with 25's in the front & rear but they are a little too squirrely for me. A negligible difference overall but it is somewhat of a difference. I don't think a couple mm makes too much of a difference with speed but with a little bit of comfort. Still fundamentally I find good steel better than equally priced aluminum, a couple of mm be damned.

Going from 28's to 40's is a lot more than a couple of mm though. I smash potholes with my 28's and feel fine. Others want Big Apples in order to ride those same streets otherwise it's a **** show for them and non-rideable. My friends do it in 25's. I do it with 28's. Others want 40 or bust. It's your test rides that can tell you what works for you.

So by reading about gravel riders who go from 32's to 40's for the most part it seems, 35 seems like a sweet spot. That's why I mentioned it. But you may be better served by actual gravel riders than an observationalist like me.

I find the combination of a steel ride and 28's to be just fine on some pretty rough roads. YMMV. This is all somewhat subjective. You are spoiled on wide knobby tires on a steel ride. That's pretty cushy. At some point you have to make a choice. I like speed. Some say fat low pressure tires are just as fast as skinnier high pressure tires. I'm not buying it at this point. i found what I see as an in between.

I find the specialized a nice balance between the two bikes, Giant vs SPecialized that is, although ultimately I'd stick with a good steel frame. I set my aluminum sub $1000 frame aside a bit over a year ago and I ain't going back.

coominya

Love. I fell in love with my first bike as an adult rider. I never would have upgraded except it started breaking rear spokes and they are a pain to replace. In the end I destroyed the rear cassette in a fit of anger! I never thought of taking it to a shop or upgrading components or anything. And it was too small for me as well but I bought an extension handlebar stem that gave me better reach. (Ok so one upgrade, but a dumb one) Thing is it worked, it got the job done for years. Now I have a much better bike in the Toughroad-1 and cycling is more pleasurable, but not by any great degree. In fact today I noticed the carbon seatpost is almost too flexible for my taste. I like everything ridged, to hell with comfort.

zorrofox

Just to provide a contrary viewpoint, I ride a Cube Hyde Pro which is aluminium & very rigid. However I run 60-622 Schwalbe Big Apples at 2bar and it's extremely smooth and damned quick. I was initially wary of tyres so big but they are actually very fast once I get going. The low pressure provides all the suspension I need.

It also has Shimano Nexus 8 hub gears and quite honestly it's all most people ever need. Easy maintenance too.

Hydraulic discs complete the package. Actually, this is now my second bike with disc brakes & I can't see myself ever using anything else.

Good luck in your search.

coominya

Hi zorrofox. On this subject of gears, do you use the factory style pedals or do you have clipless ones with shoes to suit and spin. I use 20 gears myself. Thanks.

zorrofox

I use Shimano PD-M540 pedals with an old pair of Specialized shoes. I couldn't go back to flat pedals again. I bet you don't use 20 gears. You'll probably find you only regularly use 5 or 6 of those.

DorkDisk

Don't worry about longevity of modern frames or parts.

80s MTB had long wheelbases. A fatter front tire will slacken the head tube a bit which will slow the steering a tiny bit but the shorter chainstays are likely the culprit for the increased nimbleness you feel. I think you will quickly get used to modern "short" chainstays; if not, it might be worth your while to look at a touring bike.

coominya

No I use quite a few combinations in fact, I'd rather slip a gear here and there than have to increase the effort I put through the crank. Sometimes I leave it on the big chaining and just use 7 or 8 of the rear 10 cluster but then there are always parts of the ride with tight corners (pathways) where it makes sense to have it on the smaller ring.

Overall though I love seamless acceleration at a steady Cadence, the ability to be able to click down one if a headwind appears. That's not to say I wouldn't benefit from less gears and a broader application of muscles lol. I only ride for exercise but don't like to be too inconvenienanced as I get it, if that makes any sense.

I would be interested to know your thoughts, your cycling response to minor changes in grades, headwinds etc.

zorrofox

I understand what you're saying. I only really use my bike on tarmac since we moved down here & I've always kinda resented the vulnerability of derailleur gearing to damage. So I thought I'd give hub gears a bash. So far, so good. Some of the gaps between ratios can be a bit bigger than I'd like but it's pretty flat here so I can keep my cadence fairly steady just by pushing more. The one downside here is the heat. It's been murder lately so I end up going slower than I'd like just because I'm overheating. I come from a cold climate but now live in a hot one and it's by far my biggest problem at the moment.

coominya

I like the concept of hub gears, I had a 3-speed when I was a kid and it was great. I don't know how they go efficiency wise but they must be close to the open cluster design. Sometimes manufacturers go away from designs for pure cost effectiveness. Years ago shaft drives were coming into play on Japanese motorbikes and they were quite good. Then they just stopped fitting them to all but the dedicated tourer styles. I had a Suzuki 650 katana back in the day and the shaft on it was excellent, no maintenance and would basically last the lifetime of the bike. I wonder if hub gears are somewhat similar in quality? Some of them look pretty full on.

zorrofox

Internal hub gearing does work very well in my limited experience. I like that it's essentially maintenance free, at least on a frequent basis. I really like that I can change gear at a standstill, something all derailleur users have wished for at some time in their lifes. The chain-line is arrow straight with none of the chainslap that you become used to with a derailleur system. There are notable downsides though, some of which can be ridden around so to speak but some which I just have to live with. The hub itself is very heavy making the bike noticeably heavier overall. The steps in the gearing aren't consistent so maintaining cadence is therefore more difficult. They're expensive to buy initially, when compared to a reasonable quality freehub.

I've read some say the gear range is restricted but that's not true, 1st gear is very low & 8th is very high. The steps in between can be problematic but that has nothing to do with range. For me, I think it's unlikely I'll ever return to a multi-sprocket set-up. The complexity & vulnerability of such systems already looks very archaic to me. I ride on the road though, around lovely towns & villages in the south of France. Taking my time is the only way to go in this environment. If I was in Edinburgh in the cold & commuting to work over poor tarmac & climbing steep hills I undoubtedly would be making a different choice.

Clamms

I upgraded from a late 80's hybrid to a new '16 Specialized Sirrus Sport Disc a few months ago and the difference is like night and day. It's lighter, faster, more nimble, more rugged, brakes are better, you name it. Pretty much any new bike will be a such a significant upgrade that it won't really matter which one you choose. Just go with the one that feels best. I can tell you that the Sirrus Sport would be perfect for your stated use (80% paved/20% light trail). I also recommend disc brakes on whatever bile you ultimately choose - they're a game changer and I'll never go back.

As far as whether or not to upgrade, compare pretty much anything from the 80's to today's manufacturing and technology and it's no comparison, right? Bikes are no different. Make the upgrade and biking will become fun again, you won't regret it.

zorrofox

^ this ^

mixer440

Thanks a lot for all the ideas. For anyone else interested, I put together this for comparing the features of some bikes.

mixer440

I wound up getting a Kona Big Rove