hammb

Alright, like I'm sure everybody that has a first post in this forum, I'm looking for my first decent bike. I'm coming from a 15+ year old Dick's sporting goods Diamondback Outlook that I have swapped out with slicker tires. Of course I've never been properly fitted for my bike, and all the other issues that everybody seems to deal with. Due to a gimpy ankle I'm cutting out my running and looking to put more time on my bike. My riding consists of country roads, paved bike paths, a gravel/dirt/rock towpath trail, and one metro park has recently put in a single track mountain trail. We don't have hills, let alone mountains, in NW Ohio. I haven't ridden that trail yet, but it sounds like it's got some rocks, twists, and turns, but little elevation change.

Like every other newbie, I want a bike that will do it all. So I've been looking at the lines of bikes that do have front suspensions w/ lockout (my old Diamondback did NOT have suspension). Given the type of riding I'll be doing I'm really not sure if I'll need that suspension, and I'm not sure at the entry level I'm looking at that the suspension forks are even worth anything.

My price point is < $650, so I'm looking at the entry level or 2nd step up of most of these bikes. I have not yet gotten to the shops to actually ride, but will definitely do so before purchasing. I've currently looked at the Trek DS2, Giant Roam 2, Cannondale Quick CX, and Specialized CrossTrail Disc. It seems from these bikes the Giant gives slightly better components (from what I can tell based on name) and is actually probably the cheapest as well. Unfortunately the LBS that sells Giant is by FAR the most inconvenient for me to actually get to on any regular basis, so I'm not convinced that's the shop I want to enter into a longterm relationship with, based solely on convenience.

I'm curious, are the front forks on these things actually worth anything? Because in my budget I could probably look at the next step up to something like the Trek FX3, which would get a carbon fork and better drivetrain, but I'd be losing disc brakes, the suspension, and would have more narrow tires. I'm coming from the old school 2+" MTB tires, so I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable on the more narrow 32mm on the off road trails, thoughts on that?

I guess my biggest question is are the bikes I've been looking at actually enough better on gravel/dirt/etc to justify the additional weight? In the end I'm not racing, I'm looking for a good cardio workout. Will probably be pulling my kid in a trailer a lot. I definitely want thinner tires than my current MTB, but I'm not sure if I want to go all the way down to the size on the FX/Sirrus type hybrids. Maybe it's just because I've always been on mountain bikes, but to me those bikes look setup more like road bikes with a more upright stance, while the DS/Roam/CrossTrail/QuickCX look like they are more like a quicker but less capable MTBs.

What are the thoughts on the differences between those 2 segments for somebody like me?

Snuts

https://www.marinbikes.com/us/bikes/family/muirwoods
Not local in most locations. I stumbled across a dealer when working out of town. An impulse purchase. Now my primary ride. Great gearing, hydraulic breaks. Will accept wide rubber, fenders and racks.

Your on the right track with buying from a bike shop.
Don't be afraid of asking the locals, what they wish they would have done different.

Hope this helps.

-Snuts-

Snuts

Welcome to the Forum.

-Snuts-

practical

Based on your post, I would guess you could do without front suspension or disk brakes. Instead spend your money getting a bike that weighs less and good components. You could also spend the saved money on needed accessories such as a mirror, saddlebag, lights, etc. I think there are a lot of decent bikes at the price range you posted. Giant and Fuji provide good value at your price so you might want to check out those brands and compare them to others such as Specialized and Trek

therealjoeblow

I'm going to chime in here again with my own opinion, but will NOT participate in the likely debate because it's exhausting and fruitless...

All of the bikes you listed *with* front shocks are an excellent choice for someone with the riding locales and goals that you mentioned. They do not add a significant weight disadvantage (typically only about one kilogram extra or 2lbs), and perform very well on gravel roads and paths, and very poor pavements, despite what the naysayers would lead you to believe. They do *not* bob up and down continuously like a pogo-stick and do not rob any energy on pedal strokes.

Like I said, those statements are likely going to cause a bunch of debate, I recently participated in 2 threads with the exact same discussion and don't feel like rehashing it all again, so check my posts if you want to find the details, they're only about 2 weeks ago. Essentially, I posted 2 HD videos taken with go-pro cameras mounted right at the fork that proved the points I made above (or disproved the myths that naysayers propogate about Suntour NEX/NCX forks), and the debate generally ends when people watch those videos.

Regarding the bike choices you noted, I commend you on having done your homework well for a new member here. You came up with the same conclusion as I did many years ago... at the same price-point, Giant offers a better bike; or at the same component level, Giant bikes are lower cost, but of exact same quality. In fact, Giant manufactures frames for Trek, Scott and several others, so you are mostly paying a premium for essentially the same bike when you buy one of the others, so unless you like the other colors or logos better, Giant is your best bang for the buck.

With respect to your comment about a long-term relationship with the dealer and inconvenience based on location - don't sweat that. You only need to go back to the dealer if you have warranty issues in the first year, and my experience with 2 Giants in the last 15 years is there have been NO reasons to return to the dealer ever for service. The bikes are bulletproof. That's not to say that you may not need to drop in once in the first year, but it's not a given, and certainly you won't need to go there several times.

I have a 2002 Giant Sedona LX, and other than tires, brake pads and chain, it's still on its original components (Shimano Deore) performing flawlessly, with only minor self-performed adjustments over the years. My other bike is a 2015 Giant Roam 1, again a bullet proof bike that has not required any service or adjustment yet other than cleaning.

After the warranty period, if you do not have the skills yourself for repairs or service, you can take the bike to any convenient local bike shop - at that point it doesn't matter what the brand is or what the shop sells - they all use the same Shimano/Suntour/SRAM/etc. components and any shop will gladly help you with service.

Cheers,
TRJB

PS. welcome to the forum, and enjoy whichever bike you choose. As I said, all of the ones you mentioned are great choices for what you noted, and are great quality bikes.

therealjoeblow

Here is the suspension debate thread. My posts with the videos are about 1/2 way down page 2.

https://www.bikeforums.net/hybrid-bic...l#post19420160

Cheers
TRJB

hammb

Thanks for the thoughts, and I did browse through the suspension thread you linked. And I even saw that the OP ended up going with a Giant. It's funny you bring up the look/color, because the colors on the Giant are far more appealing to me than the others, although my FAVORITE color scheme is only on the Roam3 (mechanical disc vs hydraulic, and no lockout on the suspension fork). Which is probably my biggest annoyance with this whole shopping process. Why do they not offer the color schemes through the whole range of trim levels? I know color doesn't MATTER, but it does kinda matter...

Interesting note on not worrying about going back to that particular shop once done with the initial warranty, etc. It was noteworthy to me as well that the Giant shop was also the only one offering 2 tuneups with purchase, and also was willing to move a little on price if I chose one they already had in inventory. That, combined with what appeared a better deal, appealed to me greatly. But like I said, after initial warranty period I just couldn't see myself frequenting that shop given its inconvenience for me at home.

I guess the big question in my head (and it seems to be a major delineation point on these forums) is where do I get the most value? I'm not a racer, I'm in it to get my heartrate up and have fun. I don't care if my avg pace is 13mph vs 15mph, so long as I'm getting the cardio I want/need. So do I really gain more value with a lighter bike that may have 1notch higher Shimano components than I do from what I would perceive as a more versatile ride with the shock/disc brakes/wider tires? It seems to me that there could be things I can do on this line of bikes that would be less feasible with the FX/Sirrus/etc line of bikes, and the only tradeoff is basically speed/weight? I know hardcore bike people are big on those things, but coming from where I'm coming from I don't see that as a major deciding factor for me. Unless I'm missing something? I mean, are the disc brakes and shocks at this level just junk that sound like features, but will end up as maintenance headaches?

I've already got a wife thinking I'm nuts to shop for bikes in this price range...I definitely don't wanna be replacing parts in the near future...

therealjoeblow

I ride for exactly the same reasons as you mentioned - exercise, cardio, fun, scenery, personal enjoyment.

I also ride exactly the same terrain as you mentioned - gravel roads and trails 50%; paved trails and roads 50%, of which half are poorly maintained and full of potholes.

I ride ~60km loops around the south half of my City, averaging ~21km/hour, which amounts to a pretty decent cardio raising clip up to about 28 km/hr on clear straightaways, and a more leisurely 14-16km/hr pace on winding trails that run through the river valleys and forests.

For me the Giant Roam is *perfect* for this type of riding - it's quite similar in configuration to the 14 year old Sedona LX that I replaced it with (the Sedona actually went out to the cottage where I ride it on a poorly paved low-volume highway, and through rock/dirt Canadian Shield forest trails). Since getting the Roam, I have not regretted it one bit, and have not at all wished I would have gotten something different. Weight, tire width, geometry, configuration, quality of the bike - all are spot on for what I think is the perfect ride on this type of outing.

If you want faster speed, it's not the bike itself that's going to achieve it - its more the riding position. Once you get to the 25-28km/hr range, you are fighting wind resistance with the more upright stance of a hybrid. To go faster, you need to lean forward and reduce your wind exposure. For that, a road bike is the ticket. However, personally, I have 2 issues with those for the kind of riding I'm doing:

1) It's too uncomfortable for me (lower back pain, sore wrists from leaning weight on them), and
2) More importantly, it's unsafe when riding on MUP's or in any kind of traffic whatsoever to boot along at a clip with your head down.

So I'm in agreement with you - for your stated purpose, the hybrid style with front shocks is a very good choice. And the hydraulic disc brakes are not junk at all - they are great, reliable and extremely effective. They work way better than the rim brakes on my Sedona.

I think you're on the right path with pricepoint. I see a lot of entry level buyers seriously considering bikes from Walmart/Canadian Tire/Costco/Amazon etc in the $300 range. Those all come with absolute bottom of the line components that in most cases never work properly from the get-go, and often lead to people not enjoying their bikes because they don't shift properly, they squeek, things rub and wear out quickly, etc.

When you get into a Giant/Trek/Specialized at the $650 mark, you are getting a quality product that is light, durable, and reliable. There's much better value in one bike lasting you 10-15 years that you enjoyed riding every single time you went out because it just worked flawlessly, versus 2 or 3 bikes in the same timespan at $300 each that never worked properly, and you probably rode way less over the years than you really wanted to because they were always acting up and you didn't enjoy your rides as much as a result.

Cheers
TRJB

fietsbob

Hybrid , a type, brands offering them many, so first find a bike shop, pick a favorite shop,
then test ride some bikes in person, there..


The Shop can change component parts for you, at point of sale , or later.

as you decide that fine tuning preference.

therealjoeblow

One more thought on the component level, this is just my own personal position...

"One notch higher Shimano components" is relative.

Department or big-box store bikes come with "Tourney" grade components. These are pretty basic poor quality, best suited for kid's bikes that are going to be replaced every year or 2. If you have them on an adult's bike that gets ridden a decent amount, say 500-1000km per year (not as much as you would think, that's 50km a week for half the year, pretty normal for anyone cycling for exercise), then these are going to fail to perform well in 1/2/or 3 years and need replacement with better parts.

Next step up is Altus, then Acera, then Alivio. These are all in the mid-grade bikes you are looking at and are much better performing than Tourney, and Acera/Alivio will likely last you 5 to 10 years of the kind of riding I mentioned.

Next step up from Alivio is Deore, then SLX.

To me Deore is the best bang for the buck - these are lifetime components, you will easily get 10000km out of them without any wear or performance issues, and the cost upgrade to go with a full Deore drivetrain in my opinion is worth it if you want to ride the same bike for 15 years. SLX starts to get to be pretty premium and adds yet another $100-$150 on the price of a bike, and I don't think for hybrid mixed-use riders they will last longer or perform better than Deore, so I don't see the point in going that far.

You already set a good benchmark at $650, but if it were me, I would up the budget to $820 and go with the Giant Roam 1 for the full Deore drivetrain.

I don't think anyone ever said "Gee, I wish I would have bought a cheaper bike with lower grade components"... but a *lot* of people have said the opposite.

Not to say the Roam 2 is a bad bike - at $570 its a great value, especially compared to the others in the same category that are going for $650 to $660. But the Deore drivetrain is just so bulletproof, you would definitely not regret it in the long run.

...Plus, the color scheme on the Roam 1 is a lot closer to the Roam 3 that you like better too :-)

Cheers
TRJB

ColonelSanders

If you want disc brakes, the Giant Roam is pretty tough to beat in this price range.


Also new for 2017 is a new frame design for the Roam's which look much better than previous year's designs in my view.


Whilst I am very, very happy with my Giant Toughroad SLR 2, if it got stolen tomorrow and I didn't have the budget to replace it, I would be more than happy to buy the Roam 2 and make it a long term bike.

hokiefyd 

OP, welcome to the forum. I find myself agreeing with TRJB quite a bit, this thread included. I ride a Trek Verve 3, only because I found it for a screaming deal on Craigslist (one model year old for $250). It has a Shimano Acera rear derailer, a Shimano Tourney front derailer, and Shimano Acera-level EF-51 trigger brifters (shifter/brake lever assemblies). I love the color (Trek's black pearl/liquid blue combo), but recognize that the bike is basically the same as another brand with similar spec (Specialized, Giant, etc).

I have really enjoyed the Suntour NEX fork on my Trek. I keep the preload fairly low on it, so I actually get the benefits of the suspension fork (rather than keep it so high it's basically the equivalent of a rigid fork). I'm a spinner and not a masher, and I never get fork bounce when I'm cranking unless I'm being silly about and try to bounce the bike. Most of my riding is exactly the same as you: 50% paved paths/neighborhood roads and 50% gravel two-track and C&O tow path (in the Harper's Ferry area). I find the hybrid type bike to be a great choice for this -- my head's up in a comfortable position to be able to enjoy where I am and I'm getting plenty of the type of exercise I want to get. No, I'm not pumping my heart at 190 BPM on climbs -- but that's not my goal.

Consider used bikes as well as new. You can often find very good values in used bikes. I'd have never spent $650 on my Trek new, but that's what it cost the original owner. I happily gave him his asking price of $250 for it one year old. I've put all but the first 5 or 10 miles on it, and it's worked great for me.

I wish you luck in your search -- I think you're on the right path...pardon the pun!

therealjoeblow

Right back at you @hokiefyd... I agree with you here too!

I should have mentioned, I bought my 2015 Roam 1 last fall used on Kijiji, as it turns out, from a gal literally just down the street from me who was moving half way across the country and couldn't take it with her. It was just over 1 year old then, and other than a couple of scratches on the front fork from slightly careless storage, it was in like-new condition.

It sold new for $799CDN in 2015, and was *exactly* the same as the 2016 (same frame, same components, same color except for blue stripes instead of white), but had jumped in price for the model year to $959. I paid $400 for it. A huge deal for a like-new bike that had the same specs as the current model.

It's worthwhile looking around for used bikes if you're not in a hurry. I was trying to buy a Roam 0 brand new from a dealer in July and August, and due to a fiasco of poor service it fell through, which is why I ended up looking for a used bike - I was going to wait out the dealer and try again this spring, so was in no rush, and ended up finding pretty much *exactly* what I wanted within 2 months.

Cheers
TRJB

hammb

Thanks again for all the great conversation guys!

I'm not in a great big hurry, but I do want to get something before it starts to get regularly warm around here.

I don't know what it is about my area, but I've been watching on Craigslist for about a year now and I rarely see these models anywhere. Even if I expand my search to "include nearby areas" which takes it out to include all of Detroit & Ann Arbor, I still cannot find any of these bikes that would work for me. Looking for any of the 4 models I discussed all I find in my area is a women's Trek DS, and a couple Specialized CrossTrails in a size too big, and they're the ones without Disc brakes as well.

That's pretty much been the case for most of the last year. I casually shopped last summer so figured I'd watch the ads, but didn't get serious until the winter. Maybe this style is just not popular in my area, or what, I don't know. But I'm resigning myself to the fact that I'm probably gonna have to go brand new.

rumrunn6

+1 for budgeting for accessories, shoes & clothing

travbikeman

I agree, the NEX fork actually does well on the C&O, especially going from Monocacy to Harpers Ferry.

CDot

Newbie here as well and also shopping for a bike. This thread has been really helpful. To the OP: I test rode a Giant Escape 3 and Roam 3 (on pavement) just last weekend. I found the Roam to be a real pleasure to ride. It was most familiar to me, coming from only getting mtn-style bikes from "big blue"/"big red". But the differences were stark, the fit/finish of the bike was great, it felt super smooth/comfortable, and was way lighter than the bikes I had before. I highly recommend a test ride if you have the opportunity.

I also plan on heading to a Performance Bike this weekend to check out Fuji's Absolute line and maybe a couple Marin bikes as well.

mickw

I can only provide my personal feelings on the Giant Roam 3 that I ride.
The 2016 model didn't have disk brakes , but the brakes work very well for me.
I went to the bike shop intending to buy a Giant Escape and after talking to the owner tried the Roam 2 and 3 for test rides.
I went with the Roam 3 , although the 2 was nicer , money was tight so I got the 3.
Very smooth and comfortable bike , faster than any bike I ever had before.
I'm old and have physical issues , so the suspension forks do offer some relief from discomfort.
I ride roads , canal paths , hard pack trails and it has been a very capable bike for me.
By the end of my first season (last summer) I could run about 30 miles at 9-11 MPH average and be pretty comfortable , just tired at the end of the ride.
I locked the forks for about 1/2 hour one day and have run unlocked ever since , it's just smoother for me.
I carry a rear rack and bag with probably 10-15 pounds of equipment all the time so the fork weight was not a factor for me.
So far about 5-600 miles with no real mechanical issues , pretty happy with this bike.
Mick

joc6812

I recently went through the research/buying process for a hybrid. I'm a geezer (65) getting back into cycling after many years. I'm riding for fitness and recreation; comfort is also important. I ride mostly on paved surfaces with some light off-road. I ended up with a Cannondale CX3. So far, I like it a lot. For me, it worked better than the comparable Trek, Giant and Specialized bikes I tested, although any of the bikes probably would have been fine for my needs. But my big learning was, buy the bike shop as much as, if not more than, the bike. The place I bought from was much friendlier with less attitude than most of the shops I visited. Also, good local feedback and 3 free future tune ups. For someone who doesn't want to fiddle with maintenance too much, this was important.
On the suspension, the bike has one, I've only used it once and it did take some of the sting out of uneven surfaces, but it wasn't essential for me and I could happily live without.

hammb

I finally got to some of the LBS to do some test rides yesterday to take advantage of it feeling like spring (hit 50 yesterday! YAY!), but pretty disappointing trip(s) to be honest, but mostly because I only got to ride one of the bikes I wanted to ride. From the Giant dealer to the Specialized dealer, and down to the Trek/Cannondale dealer (which is close to my home), they're each about 15 miles apart, so I did have to commit a couple hours to this process.

Went to the Giant first, hoping to ride a Roam2. They only had a Roam3 assembled in my size. I rode it, but was not impressed. The brakes were fine, but the shifting was clunky, and the fork sucked. The front shifter must have been out of tune because it kept clicking when it was on the middle gear. She did also put me on one of the Giant Mountain Bikes to feel the hydraulic discs for comparison, but that mostly just reaffirmed that I want a hybrid over a MTB. The gearing & grips on the MTB were not nearly as much to my liking as the Roam. The brakes were better though. She said they have some Roam2 in my size on order so I hope to stop back in soon to try that one out and see how much better the shifting/braking/feel is with the higher component level.

Then it was on to the Specialized dealer, and what is there to say. This was the only dealer that had the bike I wanted to ride in house in my size, and I loved it. Crosstrail Disc, and it was a great ride. There is a large gravel area next to their lot so I took it through that, and it handled it well. I really liked the fork on this one. The girl there did a great job adjusting the fit until it was perfect. Really enjoyed the bike, even though the component level is a notch below their competitors at this price point, this one must have just been tuned very well because it all worked really well.

From there, I headed home to the Trek/Cannondale dealer that is like 5 minutes from my house. This is the smaller of their 2 shops, but they had told me in the past they would have most of the same bikes, just perhaps different colors or whatever. Well, yeah, not so much. They didn't have a single Cannondale CX in my size so I didn't get to ride that. They didn't have a single 2017 DS series in stock at all, my size or otherwise. They did have several 2016 DS series bikes at pretty good discounts. First I rode the DS 8.2, which they had at a pretty good markdown, so well below what I had expected to spend. Unfortunately I didn't care for that bike at all. Wasn't a big fan of the posture, and the components were clunky across the board. They didn't have an 8.3 (of course), so I rode an 8.4. The 8.4 was a pretty nice bike. Still not sure I like the geometry as much as the CrossTrail, but the components were pretty slick. Shifting and braking were noticeably improved over the 8.2 (to be expected given 2 price levels up). Unfortunately, even at the discounts it's still over $700 and I don't want to pay that much. The 8.3 (especially if given a similar discount) would fit a real good price point for me, and I think compare more favorably to the DS2 than either of the 2 that I test rode. And incidentally the 8.3 came in that neon green color that might make me jump on it instantly...


So, I'm no closer to a decision now than I was 2 days ago. I definitely preferred the geometry feel on the CrossTrail over the others I rode, but I'm not sure if that's just because I was happier getting to ride the EXACT bike I expected/wanted, more attention to the fit, or just it truly does suit me better. Kinda stinks because that was the bike I was REALLY hoping to not like best. They're at full retail with 0 budge (I even asked about sales, which she said they ran a couple weeks ago, but not anytime in the near future). And at that full retail price the components are considered a notch or two below the others I plan to test...although in my one experience they felt quite good.

Next step for me is to find out when the Roam2s are coming in so I can test that. I also want to talk to the larger shop for the Trek dealer and see if they've got that 8.3 and/or the DS2 so I can ride those to compare. If I could find the 8.3 in volt green, I love that look, but I want to ride it to see how I feel about the mech discs vs hydraulic. I didn't have a problem with the mech discs on the Giant I tested though.

rgconner

Look for a used one?

therealjoeblow

Probably a lot do do with your poor experience is psychological. I had the exact same experience last summer/fall...

I went in last year to a dealer intending to test-ride a 2016 Giant Roam 0 in Large, but they only had a Roam 1 in Medium available. So I rode that and felt like it was "OK", but didn't love it. The dealer did the exact same thing as yours did - brought up one of the similar MTB's in a Large frame size for comparison and I rode that thinking "what's the point, this isn't the same bike...".

I left there frustrated and not impressed. The next day I factory ordered a 2017 Roam 0 in Large because there were no more 2016's available. I waited for several weeks, and when it arrived I excitedly went down to test ride it and *loved* it. Everything about it. That is until I got back to the shop and checked all of the parts before paying for it and found that they assembled it in the factory with a Deore drivetrain instead of the SLX that it was supposed to have. All of a sudden, with no other influence whatsoever, I hated that bike with a passion. I went from hyped to my stomach churning in less than a minute. So I left and told the shop to sort out with Giant what to do with the wrong components and let me know what they came up with, but I was not impressed.

In the mean-time, I found a used 2015 Roam 1 in Large which was *exactly* the same as the 2016 model except for the color stripes. I went and rode that bike and loved it. I negotiated a price of $400 with the owner and rode away with a bike that was fundamentally exactly the same as the other 2 that I somehow quickly grew to hate.

I know it was 100% psychological because I figured for paying $1k top retail dollar I should be able to get whatever I want exactly the way I want it, and that wasn't reality.

But in the end, I love the bike i did end up buying, and psychologically feel much better about getting it in like-new condition for 40% of the retail price rather than the BS the shop put me through!

At the end of the day, buying a brand new bike is a fairly expensive and stressing proposition, and ultimately, most of these bikes are so similar that whichever one you end up with will be the one that your heart and brain connect with, regardless of whether it's + or - $50 to $100 for a better or worse part here or there.

Cheers
TRJB

sh00k

that feeling is priceless! this is why i (for the near future lol) will not be buying from an lbs. i know getting the top models brings in the top price but most people have the luxury of waiting for someone to resell their model. it just takes patience and diligence.

boozergut

I have a 2002 Giant Sedona LX, and other than tires, brake pads and chain, it's still on its original components (Shimano Deore) performing flawlessly, with only minor self-performed adjustments over the years. My other bike is a 2015 Giant Roam 1, again a bullet proof bike that has not required any service or adjustment yet other than cleaning.

I had this bike. I had trouble with the saddle clamp pieces. The two grilled pieces that clamped onto the saddle rails gave me fits. They wore quickly. Shifting was never an issue, but I do think there are much better hybrids out there now than this one. The Sedona seemed one step above the X Mart bikes of the world.

I love my Kona Dew. My experience is that the Shimano Altus system is less sensitive to cable stretch. But YMMV.

therealjoeblow

The Sedona models have been downgraded substantially over the last 15 years... the current model is a shadow of what the LX used to be when I bought mine. My 2002 had RockShox and a Deore drivetrain, quality bearings/bracket/hubs throughout, and a much less relaxed frame, you don't find that on today's models. I wouldn't recommend the current Sedona to anyone but very infrequent neighborhood recreational riders, but hey, it's a $400 bike now new, compared to the $650-$1k ones it used to be and we are talking about here.

Cheers
TRJB

Cheers