+1 on that, could not have said it better...Richard

Keep the 38c Kendra Kwicks ! Richard

Sorry you guys for all the reply s, just re-read the whole thread as it is raining here and can not ride...And on the
off topic part, bikes are needed just as much as cars, buses, planes, trains, etc..just because barely over
one percent of the United States commutes to work by bicycles, Japan is around 17 percent, and I have spent
a lot of time in Peru, where it also is a primary mode of transportation, this is a big world, take away all bikes tonight, and the number would be in the high millions calling in sick for work in the morning.. Richard (Also millions of jobs
would be lost due to the biking industry, from the builders, sellers, shops,
mechanics, etc...and people who use there bikes for a living, messengers,
I think you get my point.) it was always a foolish debate from the start,
on some peoples view, that is why I never commented on it. Now the 2000.00 dollar bike verse's the 300.00 dollar one, ( we could have some fun with that ) Laugh !!

Yes ... gotta' love bikes, whether they are big ones, little ones, fast ones, slow ones, cheap ones , or expensive ones ... doesn't matter, they're all bikes and I love 'em.

(ALARM: this is off topic) But , I'm curious ... what were you up to in Peru ?

Promoting the Hybrid forum page for BF, LOL....Really my wife is from Peru, and yes all my kids speak Spanish
also..and spend there summer vacations there, at there Grandparents. Richard : )

Food, water, shelter
 

We could chat on this for days, since my only other hobbies, happens to be on Wilderness
Survival..Like building shelters, and gathering food and water, etc. but this is bike forums page.. , Thats why wearing
head phones on a bike ride does not disconnect me with nature..:rolleyes:

HERE is a few pictures of my wife and kids in USA and PERU !!!!!!
 

[QUOTE=xoxoxoxoLive;11728708]Promoting the Hybrid forum page for BF, LOL....Really my wife is from Peru, and yes all my kids speak Spanish
also..and spend there summer vacations there, at there Grandparents. Richard : )

here is some pics, I think the Cannondale F4 is better looking, but I do not have to sleep with it at night...

Just to chime in... IME there is a huge difference between an entry-level bike and one that costs $1000+. For me I could feel the difference just pushing the bike out of the store for a test ride. Tighter tolerances, sealed bearings, and smoother action lend themselves to a quality feel that cannot be matched by lesser bikes. That's not to say that a decent new bike can't be had for $300 - $400, or even less for that matter, it's that the difference between that bike and one that costs 3 to 4 times as much is palpable.

[QUOTE=xoxoxoxoLive;11729675]

[QUOTE=xoxoxoxoLive;11729866]You guys know I have never been able to link photos, this was my wife's doing...She is more computer savvy, and those are the
pictures of our girls in Peru, at there grandparents...Same ones in the special Olympics video..( LOL )..and me in the suit..I could
not believe she posted those pics....But the girls are the BEST with Grandpa ! ( Well TallDog ), now you know why I go to Peru !

Sealed bearings will not make the bike any faster, properly adjusted bearings will..In my humble opinion, for a Hybrid, ( And we are on the Hybrid forum. ) Hubs and tires will make the difference. When I was pushing my bike( into) REI ( Budget hybrid ),
a customer wanted one just like it...They installed the Topeak rack for free since I bought it there ..I paid 199.00 dollars with tax. the original OP has a nice bike ! Cannondale, let him ride...Richard

As a matter of fact your true needs are no different than a Neanderthal's and if we had grown up in a stone age culture we could live in caves and survive by hunting and gathering using stone tools. Our lives are immensely richer in many ways and also immensely poorer in other ways because of our modern material/technical culture. Because we modern urban human beings have no hunting and gathering skills or stone working skills we would be hard pressed to survive that way. But if civilization collapsed and we were forced to revert to that lifestyle we could. Or some of us could, most would die off before learning the skills and because the environment cannot feed 6 billion human hunter/gatherers. You do not, in the true sense of the word, need a bicycle.

And that is what I am discussing, the meaning of need, not your chosen means of supporting yourself. You do not need a bicycle, you have chosen to use a bicycle to support yourself. I am not questioning, criticizing, or demeaning that choice. If I knew more about it I am sure I would be impressed by what you do and admire you for it. I am merely pointing out that it is a choice not a fundamental need. I have already acknowledged that it may be an excellent choice and the best possible choice for you, given your situation and your goals in life. That is not the issue I am trying to discuss. I am trying to get you to see that none of us, not even you, needs a bicycle to live. We all choose to use bicycles and if you would understand that fact then you might not be so quick to criticize people for the amount they spend on their bikes. Whether it is a little or a lot people purchase bicycles based on their desires and their budgets. There is no reason to question whether someone needs to spend $100, $1000, or $10,000 on their bicycle because they do not need to spend anything on a bicycle, they want to spend their money on a bicycle. Needs are susceptible to a rational analysis of cost versus benefit and poor choices can be criticized to the benefit of the person making the decision. Wants are not. Wants are an expression of something deep within us and need no justification, they allow no criticism and they do not benefit from it.

Now, once someone has decided to earn their living on a bicycle the dynamic changes. Given that you intend to earn your living on a bike it becomes possible to do a rational analysis of costs and benefits to arrive at the optimum selection of the bicycle. That is where you are, obviously, and you have reached a decision about that. Your decision cannot be generalized to those of us who use bicycles for completely different purposes. Yet you frequently criticize people for not following your decision and for spending what you consider embarrassingly high amounts of money on their bicycles. It just doesn't work that way and in fact have you truly made the best decision by buying cheap bicycles? Have you considered what it might do for your business if you were to purchase one of these, or one of these, or one of these instead of the cheap bicycles you more or less demand that we all use? You have several times criticized me for being a showoff because I ride a $900 bicycle yet perhaps your preferred lifestyle could be better served by one that cost two and a half times as much as mine cost. If I were doing what you do I would certainly consider that option strongly.

The cave man who needed dialysis did die but your bicycle cannot do dialysis and except in extreme and somewhat contrived situations it cannot perform any similar life saving function. If I were out somewhere and saw a grizzly bear charging me and my only option was to flee then I would much rather be on my Fuji than on foot and it might indeed save my life. How often does that happen in real life? If this were a significant risk factor for me I would use means other than a bicycle to contain the risk. Even a few spears tipped with stone points might be a more dependable defense.

I don't know anything about your life and don't claim to. I do know a lot about modern human life in general though and I know that no one is truly constrained to making a living or transporting themselves by bicycle. You have other options that you could use but if you are happy with using a bicycle as you do then I think that is great and I don't question your choice. I am more like you than you think since I commute to work on one of my bikes. Doing so enhances my life in several ways even though it does draw some measure of criticism from my peers. It is an excellent choice for me.

Ken

I agree. My $900 bicycle is better in several ways than any significantly cheaper bicycle I looked at. Some people here evidently think I am an idiot but even they should know that I am not a complete idiot! :lol: If there were no detectable difference I simply would not have spent the extra money. Whether or not the difference is worth the extra money is entirely in the mind of the beholder. But to say that there is no difference is to deny the truth.

Ken

I did not deny the truth and my bike costs about the same as yours does.
What I did say is that most people have little to no benefit of bikes costing $2000 or more and that they may just aswell get one that costs $1000 and maybe have about 1% of performance difference.
Most people that only ride 10 to 15 mph will even have very little difference between a $1000 bike and a nice $500 bike.
I bought my wife a nice hybrid bike with a complete shimano deore groupset for only $500.
If people want to spend thousands of dollars on a few percents of performance gain that is entirely their choice ofcourse, but the fact that it is so remains.

What makes you think it is solely about performance and average speed :bang:? There are a whole slew of subjective reasons that go beyond your stark analysis of what is a suitable amount to spend on a bike, and what constitites "nice" within this context. What is not a benefit to you, and what you consider to be sufficiently "nice", may not coincide at all with others' personal views on the issue. You cannot force your ideology of what constitutes an acceptable bicycle on anyone else. It is merely an opinion and viewpoint you subscribe to for your own particular circumstances, and is neither right nor wrong. In short, not everyone subscribes to the same parameters.That is the fact that so remains.

[QUOTE=xoxoxoxoLive;11730028]Nice looking family, Richard ... except for that funny looking guy in the suit .... he must be a Schwinn rider, eh ? :)

(just kiddin' ya)

I don't believe that I suggested sealed bearings would make a bike any faster, I said they would offer a quality feel. Take a new pair of open bearing pedals and another pair of sealed bearing pedals and spin the axles... there is a noticeable difference in the way they feel. Also, sealed bearings will keep out the elements and if they wear out the cartridge can be replaced rather than the whole part. In truth it's the motor that makes a bike faster... put Lance on my $300 Schwinn and he'll beat me mounted on his high-dollar carbon fiber race machine every time.

As for the difference between a $1000 and a $2000 bike... there is a difference; it's just not noticeable to every rider. In the elite circles where bikes can cost more than I make in a year (or 10 years) the difference can be made in 100ths of a second, which could mean the difference between a podium finisher and an also-ran. In that case thousands spent to save 10 grams makes sense. Today I can't see myself needing a $4000 bike, but last year I couldn't see myself owning a $1300 bike either, and yet here I am riding one today. Having said that, I could easily see myself owning $4000 worth of bikes and cycling accessories.

[QUOTE=Talldog;11732993]Thanks, Richard

I see nothing in your post I disagree with. And on the accessories, WOW can they add up fast, on my Cannondale F4 alone
have already spent a lot converting it to a Hybrid, frame pump, new water bottle cage and bottle, changed out the saddle, new
front headlamp, new tires, new Topeak rack for disk brakes, new peddles, Planet bike blinky light for rear, and think God I can
just switch the Topeak DPX truck bag with panniers back and forth between the two bikes since its quick release system.
But I think I have really come up with a Hybrid best suited for my riding style and needs, with the new semi slicks for fast
rolling down the roads, but wide enough to tackle non groomed trails, MTB gearing for all the hills around here, and still have
plenty of top end for ME, plus the lock out HeadShok right in the stem, just a quarter turn and I am riding up the hills with NO
bouncing, then flip back, and shoot off on a trail, and disk brakes for the mud I sometimes encounter, and it still makes a great
commuter to town. The Schwinn will probably become my back up bike now. I'm still more comfortable on long rides, but I think
the lower bars are just going to take a little getting used to, there still 1" above my seat, and with the all the extras, except
Topeak bag on, only weighs 30 pounds. Richard

Ken "It just doesn't work that way and in fact have you truly made the best decision by buying cheap bicycles? Have you considered what it might do for your business if you were to purchase one of these, or one of these, or one of these instead of the cheap bicycles you more or less demand that we all use?"

Are you serious? My Marin Mill Valley is a lot nicer than your bike and none of my bikes could be considered cheap in my opinion. Yes the Cannondale was less than $400 retail, but that was a long time ago. A bike like that would go for at least twice that today, even without the upgrades, Phil Wood front hub, XT rear, Mavic rims, LX crankset, etc. Cheap piece of crap.

My new bike has Tektro hydraulic disc brakes, WTB rims, WTB saddle, Deore derailleur, Truvative cranks. Stock tires were Continentals. Lists for $750. A cheap bike? I would force everyone to ride horrid junk like this!? NO

I have never suggested anybody should ride a cheap bike unless they want to, and I have never suggested anyone had a bike that was too nice. When have I ever criticized anyone for buying an expensive bike? Where are you getting this idea, Ken??

Those long bikes have much less carrying capacity than my trailer. The Mundo is very heavy and cheaply constructed. The rear wheel on Trek and Kona are too far forward. If you want a long bike look at the Surly Big Dummy. You might find some use for a bike like that, but it would be insufficient for my needs.

One of my crappy cheap bikes (triple butted alloy frame, carbon fork, Cane Creek wheels, Deore drivetrain w/ Wipperman chain and Sram cogset, Thomson seatpost, Fiziks saddle, Avid SD5 V-brakes, Conti tires. Cheap piece of junk, right?) with 400lbs of freight. Lets see you do that with a Trek Transport. HAHA!
http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/r...L-IMG_1658.jpg

Ken "But if civilization collapsed and we were forced to revert to that lifestyle we could. Or some of us could, most would die off before learning the skills and because the environment cannot feed 6 billion human hunter/gatherers."

Most of us would die, suggesting that most of us have different needs than a caveman.

You are telling me what I need to survive, and now you are telling me how to do my job. You have a lot of nerve, buddy!

The basic needs for life have not changed but you have no way to judge my ability to satisfy those needs for myself without a bicycle. A lot of younger smarter people than me, with better job skills are unemployed, many living on the streets or in homeless shelters. People die in this country every day because they can't pay for necessary medical needs. Oh, but cavemen didn't need doctors, so we don't need them either, right?

Trek Transport! :rolleyes: You haven't got a clue.

Ken "The cave man who needed dialysis did die but your bicycle cannot do dialysis and except in extreme and somewhat contrived situations it cannot perform any similar life saving function."

The point is lots of cavemen died because they needed stuff they didn't have. Are you pretending to be stupid?

I do, but not because you have a $900 bicycle.

I'm reading your lengthy post a bit at a time. It's too much nonsense for me to take in all at once.

Ken "You have several times criticized me for being a showoff because I ride a $900 bicycle yet perhaps your preferred lifestyle could be better served by one that cost two and a half times as much as mine cost."

This bit is slanderous. I have never reacted to your bicycle in any way. I don't even know what you ride, when I said my Marin was nicer that was an assumption. If you have something nicer than my Marin Mill Valley, let's see it! Apologies if you've posted about your $900 bicycle before and I didn't notice. I spent four figures on a bicycle in the 1980s. I haven't spent as much since, but spending $900 on a bike in today's market sounds very ordinary, not something I would react to.

You have absolutely no reason to think I consider $900 too much to spend on a bicycle!

Or a 250.00 dollar bike tuned correctly ! Richard

The tension is so high in this thread I could cut cheese with it.