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Direct drive vs wheel-on smart trainers - is it "worth it" to spend more?

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Direct drive vs wheel-on smart trainers - is it "worth it" to spend more?

Old 12-11-20, 05:16 AM
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This brings up an issue I'm wrestling with. We're considering replacing our cheapo/old school/bought-used-and-shabby wheel-on trainer. One of us is going to be undergoing surgery and will not be able to ride for about 6 months. We converted an old bike to our trainer. If we were going to go to a wheel-on-trainer, I wonder if it doesn't make just as much sense to buy a stationary bike. We're casual riders, not racers and not long distance bikepackers, but gradually increasing distance and speed and cadence and so forth. Any thoughts?
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Old 12-11-20, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw
This brings up an issue I'm wrestling with. We're considering replacing our cheapo/old school/bought-used-and-shabby wheel-on trainer. One of us is going to be undergoing surgery and will not be able to ride for about 6 months. We converted an old bike to our trainer. If we were going to go to a wheel-on-trainer, I wonder if it doesn't make just as much sense to buy a stationary bike. We're casual riders, not racers and not long distance bikepackers, but gradually increasing distance and speed and cadence and so forth. Any thoughts?
There are 2 separate questions that you should think about:

Get a smart device with build-in power/cadence meter or a "dumb" device with manual resistance adjustments?
Get a stationary bike or a trainer to put your bike on?

First question is really about if you intend to do structured training with it or connect to an on-line platform.
Second question depends mostly if you have the space and the budget available.
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Old 12-11-20, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw
This brings up an issue I'm wrestling with. We're considering replacing our cheapo/old school/bought-used-and-shabby wheel-on trainer. One of us is going to be undergoing surgery and will not be able to ride for about 6 months. We converted an old bike to our trainer. If we were going to go to a wheel-on-trainer, I wonder if it doesn't make just as much sense to buy a stationary bike. We're casual riders, not racers and not long distance bikepackers, but gradually increasing distance and speed and cadence and so forth. Any thoughts?
If you buy a stationary bike, you'll have to futz with it to make it fit like your existing bike in order to be comfortable. With a wheel-on trainer, you're already on the bike you have, so no adjustment necessary. The only other thing is you'll probably sacrifice a rear tire. Or buy a trainer-specific tire.
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Old 12-11-20, 02:33 PM
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I've actually got both a stationary and my trainer setup side by side in the pain cave.

We have a cheap stationary bike and it honestly gets old fast when doing workouts. I used to turn on GCN training videos on YouTube and workout to those. However you have to make manual resistance changes and really have no good way to track metrics like speed, power, cadence. What's nice is that we can switch the fit between riders quickly but again on cheaper bikes, not fine tuned and has quick a bit of slop. The biggest annoyance is the slop as stuff will slip or move around under hard efforts.

Honestly going to the smart trainer makes it way more fun and interesting. Riding in Zwift is like playing a video game where workouts in SufferFest are a flogging. I'd rather burn through tires than spend the money on a stationary IMHO.
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Old 12-12-20, 08:46 AM
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I have a KickR Snap and love it. Used to ride old school rollers. Never had a problem with tire wear or black dust. Seems to be very quiet, but I usually wear Bose Sport ear phones. But plenty quiet enough without to watch TV.

I do pump my tires full up and do a spin down each time. The ten seconds to loosen/tighten the tension knob does not seem to be a huge problem.
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Old 12-18-20, 01:57 PM
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My Kickr Snap arrives tomorrow. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Am I understanding correctly that Zwift can still use my on-bike crank-arm power meter, but still control the trainer resistance for terrain changes? Is this a better setup than using the Kickr Snap for power readings? I'm not overly concerned about accuracy and comparisons between the two power meters, just wondering if this would be a way to work around some of the concerns that are noted above.
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Old 12-19-20, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
My Kickr Snap arrives tomorrow. I'm looking forward to trying it out.

Am I understanding correctly that Zwift can still use my on-bike crank-arm power meter, but still control the trainer resistance for terrain changes? Is this a better setup than using the Kickr Snap for power readings? I'm not overly concerned about accuracy and comparisons between the two power meters, just wondering if this would be a way to work around some of the concerns that are noted above.
Using your power meter as the source of power for Zwift has the benefit of seeing consistent numbers inside and outside. Also, I think the power reading of the Snap depends a bit on how the tires are inflated and how many turns of the knob. By using your own power meter that wouldn’t matter.

If it works like with the Kickr, there are two options to use your power meter with the trainer:
  1. Just connect Zwift to the trainer and to the power meter, there are two settings in Zwift, one for the controllable trainer and one for the power meter.
  2. Go into the Snap settings and set it up to use your power meter as source of power, need to do this only once. Then connect Zwift to the Snap for both settings. Here is a description of how to set up the trainer:

I found that when doing interval workouts in Trainerroad, the second option provides a smoother power graph. I don’t know if that is because power matching works better this way or because the trainer is transmitting smoothened power data.
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Old 12-19-20, 10:17 AM
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I have been riding a long time indoors started with rollers and moved up their the different types over the years. I retired last year and sold my work car. I decide to buy the Kickr bike. Advantage not messing with bike maintenance Didnít have to use any add on sensors other than a Wahoo tickr. Simple setup and you just ride away. I use Sufferfest for workouts, Zwift for local group rides,and Rouvy for outdoor rides.
Having riden all the different types thru the years now. It has been interesting to see how it has advanced. I know not everyone has the money for Kickr bike but it is nice just being able to click in the petals and off you go.
I find riding with others who have Wahoo snaps now that their speed varies so much. We see it in the w/kg of some of the riders in club rides. It will jump all over the place. Or others will have sensors drop out during an hour ride. Lots of fiddling things still to work out on the wheel on trainers.
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Old 12-19-20, 10:49 AM
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I used a kickr snap for three seasons and enjoyed it. I just upgraded to the kickr 2020 and find the experience more enjoyable.
No Bluetooth dropouts ever.
No more spin down calibrations
No more pumping tires and adjusting tension.
Kickr tracks cadence so I can now pair to Apple TV instead of pairing through companion app.
Worth it for me.
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Old 12-19-20, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by frogmorton
I used a kickr snap for three seasons and enjoyed it. I just upgraded to the kickr 2020 and find the experience more enjoyable.
No Bluetooth dropouts ever.
No more spin down calibrations
No more pumping tires and adjusting tension.
Kickr tracks cadence so I can now pair to Apple TV instead of pairing through companion app.
Worth it for me.
Are there no spin down calibrations with the Kickr?
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Old 12-19-20, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by sarhog
Are there no spin down calibrations with the Kickr?
The latest 2020 model cannot be manually calibrated. DC Rainmaker reviewed it and said it is slightly inaccurate and Wahoo is trying to figure out a fix. Probably not a huge issue as long as it's not being used to race.
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Old 12-22-20, 09:15 AM
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Update: My Kickr Snap is great. Setup was simple, and I was up and riding on it in just a few minutes.

I have two Zwift rides on it, and so far absolutely love it. It's a massive improvement over my old Cyclops fluid trainer. For starters, the flywheel is a lot heavier so the Snap builds up momentum and holds it much better so the "ride feel" is much, much better. It's also quieter than my old fluid trainer, and the whole experience just feels smoother.

The only downside I see is that the knob that moves the roller to the tire doesn't have a "quick release" feature. On my Cyclops trainer, I could set it to the right pressure and then flip the lever to release it or re-tighten it, so it kept the same setting. On the Snap, I have to unscrew the knob a few turns to move the roller off the tire, so the next time it's harder to know how tight I should make it. On my ride today I had to stop and give it another half turn or so as my tire was slipping a bit on steep climbs. I've always assumed it's best practice to release the roller at the end of a ride so it doesn't leave a flat-spot on the tire, but I suppose you could just leave it cranked down all the time and it might be more consistent.

I'm using my crank-arm power meter for power readings in Zwift, so the accuracy (or lack thereof) isn't really a factor. Wahoo made me do an initial spin down when I was setting up the trainer in the app, but since I'm not using the power reading for Zwift, I'm not sure it really matters. Zwift controls the resistance for inclines/declines. I don't have a ton of climbing experience (it's super flat where I live), so it's hard to say if the inclines are realistic or not. I have the "trainer difficulty" slider set to around 75% and a 15% grade requires a fairly substantial effort on my flat-lander 1x setup (42T 11-32). I might need a bit more gear range, or dial down the trainer difficulty before I tackle Alpe Du Zwift.

On descents, I'm surprised at how little resistance there is on the trainer. I'm easily spinning out the 42/11 on big hills, which seems realistic if I'm barreling down a 10%+ grade at 40mph. What I don't like is that I'm getting dropped by other riders, and I can't really put down any power on these descents to accelerate enough to catch back up.

In summary, I have no regrets about staying with a wheel-on trainer. Because I have a crank power meter, it seems to eliminate a lot of the issues. The "ride feel" is really great, and the variable resistance makes Zwift way more engaging. Very happy with my purchase.
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Old 12-22-20, 02:12 PM
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On the snap, tighten the roller until it just touches the tire, then two complete revolutions more. I marked the knob with some paint so I could keep track of the turns.
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Old 12-22-20, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la

On descents, I'm surprised at how little resistance there is on the trainer. I'm easily spinning out the 42/11 on big hills, which seems realistic if I'm barreling down a 10%+ grade at 40mph. What I don't like is that I'm getting dropped by other riders, and I can't really put down any power on these descents to accelerate enough to catch back up.
Setting the trainer difficulty setting to lower will give more resistance on the downhills, allowing you to put more power down.
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Old 12-23-20, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by surak
The latest 2020 model cannot be manually calibrated. DC Rainmaker reviewed it and said it is slightly inaccurate and Wahoo is trying to figure out a fix. Probably not a huge issue as long as it's not being used to race.
The kickr update that dropped this week should address this. The update says it addressed power readings at low flywheel speeds.

Edit: DC Rainmaker says the wahoo update fixed his concerns.

Last edited by frogmorton; 12-30-20 at 10:08 AM.
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Old 12-31-20, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by dmanthree
IMO, yes. I had a wheel-on trainer, and, well, they eat wheels. After I toasted the second wheel I sold it and bought a direct drive model. So, yes, get a direct drive and save your wheels and tires.
Really? How? I use sturdy old alloy wheels on my Kurt Kinetic Road Machine, and I can't imagine how the wheel could be harmed. And old used Gatorskins last a long time when they are repurposed to dedicated trainer tires.

Even if they did eat wheels, I have enough old wheels lying around. Ones with trashed brake tracks or some other defect that keeps me from riding them on the road.
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Old 12-31-20, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Really? How? I use sturdy old alloy wheels on my Kurt Kinetic Road Machine, and I can't imagine how the wheel could be harmed. And old used Gatorskins last a long time when they are repurposed to dedicated trainer tires.

Even if they did eat wheels, I have enough old wheels lying around. Ones with trashed brake tracks or some other defect that keeps me from riding them on the road.
In two cases I lost wheels to separation at the spoke connection points. In 25 years of roller riding and a lot more road riding I never had that happen. But the wheel on trainer did it, I guess, due to my tendency to try and max out wattage during sprints. Never do that on road rides.
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Old 12-31-20, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dmanthree
In two cases I lost wheels to separation at the spoke connection points. In 25 years of roller riding and a lot more road riding I never had that happen. But the wheel on trainer did it, I guess, due to my tendency to try and max out wattage during sprints. Never do that on road rides.

Hmm. You must have beaucoup watts. I don't think I'm at risk there.
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Old 12-31-20, 10:41 AM
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Huh. I am the opposite. I will max out on the road, but never on the trainer.
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Old 01-01-21, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Hmm. You must have beaucoup watts. I don't think I'm at risk there.
Not too bad, I guess. I've topped 1200W for a few seconds during those sprints. I can hit OK numbers, but not for long. My 66 year old body says...no.
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Old 01-02-21, 07:15 PM
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Late to the party, but regarding using a crank power meter for reading watts but then having Zwift use that to adjust the trainer resistance, I found a significant (to the point of being annoying) delay when using my 4iiii crank based PM for power readings and my kick'r snap as the trainer. I stopped doing it that way because I couldn't stand the lag. There's no noticeable lag just using the Snap PM. I also noticed that my 4iiii reads a fair bit higher watts than the Snap does, and I made sure to calibrate/spindown both correctly. I don't worry about it, though, and just do my workouts as planned with the Snap. Had they had the Core when I bought my Snap, I would have purchased one, but the price difference between the Snap and the regular kick'r was huge several years ago. Never had any problems with an old, heavy wheel and a $25 trainer specific tire. I'll upgrade to a direct drive trainer when the Snap breaks.
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Old 01-02-21, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la
Title pretty much sums it up: Assuming I can find a smart trainer to purchase right now, is it worth spending the extra money to get a direct drive vs wheel-on?

I've never used a smart trainer before. I have been riding an old Cyclops wheel-on fluid trainer for years and sometimes I also ride rollers. Mostly I've been doing simple interval types of workouts in my basement when the weather is crappy, and just zone out while listening to music or watching Netflix, but recently I got into Zwift. I have a crank arm power meter on one of my bikes, so Zwift seems to work pretty well on the dumb trainer. I just pay attention to the gradient and when it goes up I add gears to make it harder.

The idea of a smart trainer sounds cool and seems like it would make Zwift even more fun to ride. Going into a long winter with my gym closed, and few other workout alternatives, I'm thinking of upgrading my indoor trainer setup (like pretty much everyone on the planet).

The trainers I've seen recently include the Kickr Core and Tacx Flux 2 (both $900 direct drive) and also the cheaper wheel-on Kickr Snap ($500) adn Tacx Flow ($370). REI has both Tacx models in stock at the moment. My LBS has Kickr Snaps.

$370-$500 sounds great to me. I'd rather spend money on other cycling related purchases instead, but also if there's a dramatic upgrade in performance by going direct drive, I'd be inclined to just bite the bullet and spend it now as opposed to buying something cheap and then wanting to upgrade in a year.

I read a lot about "road feel", but I'm not clear what that means. It's not really possible to test these things out right now either, so I'm hoping for some input from people who've ridden both versions. Any thoughts are appreciated.
I previously used a Kinetic wheel-on smart trainer. Since last February I have been using a Wahoo Core direct drive trainer that I snatched up right before the lockdown began.

I can categorically tell you that the direct drive trainer is far superior and gives you a more enjoyable and realistic training experience, especially if you use Zwift.

If youcan find one and donít mind paying the extra premium I would then highly recommend the direct drive over wheel-on trainer.

Good luck and have fun.
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Old 01-03-21, 12:27 PM
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I too am a newbie on smart trainers. I'm basically looking for something to "get me thru the winter" to provide some cardio workouts. Local bike shop offers Kickr snap and it sounds like a good beginner option. I would pair it with my older road bike and investigate some handlebar or stem mount holder for my ipad. I assume these things exist. If I find the trainer lacking, I could consider a better trainer for next year. One concern I have is noise though. I live in a condo with walled neighbors. I've listened to YouTube noise tests with the Snap but it's still hard to get a handle on just how noisy it is. Is it considerably more noisy then a direct drive model such as the Kickr or Kickr Core? Would the noise penetrate a wall, where although muffled, we can still hear each other's vacuum cleaners? Another question about the Snap of which I'm not quite clear on, can you just pop the bike on it, or do you have to replace the rear axle with something specific?
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Old 01-04-21, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by msu2001la

.................................................

I'm using my crank-arm power meter for power readings in Zwift, so the accuracy (or lack thereof) isn't really a factor. Wahoo made me do an initial spin down when I was setting up the trainer in the app, but since I'm not using the power reading for Zwift, I'm not sure it really matters. Zwift controls the resistance for inclines/declines. I don't have a ton of climbing experience (it's super flat where I live), so it's hard to say if the inclines are realistic or not. I have the "trainer difficulty" slider set to around 75% and a 15% grade requires a fairly substantial effort on my flat-lander 1x setup (42T 11-32). I might need a bit more gear range, or dial down the trainer difficulty before I tackle Alpe Du Zwift.................
Question: when you log in and pair I assume you pair your power meter in "Power Source" and your Wahoo Snap in "Controllable Trainer"?

Thanks
Tom

ON EDIT: sorry I see the video up threads explains that, sorry.

Last edited by Thomas15; 01-04-21 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 01-04-21, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by geepondy
I too am a newbie on smart trainers. I'm basically looking for something to "get me thru the winter" to provide some cardio workouts. Local bike shop offers Kickr snap and it sounds like a good beginner option. I would pair it with my older road bike and investigate some handlebar or stem mount holder for my ipad. I assume these things exist. If I find the trainer lacking, I could consider a better trainer for next year. One concern I have is noise though. I live in a condo with walled neighbors. I've listened to YouTube noise tests with the Snap but it's still hard to get a handle on just how noisy it is. Is it considerably more noisy then a direct drive model such as the Kickr or Kickr Core? Would the noise penetrate a wall, where although muffled, we can still hear each other's vacuum cleaners? Another question about the Snap of which I'm not quite clear on, can you just pop the bike on it, or do you have to replace the rear axle with something specific?
I don't have any direct comparison with noise on the Snap vs direct drive, but I've not noticed the Snap to be unusually loud. It's definitely nowhere near as loud as a vacuum cleaner. I'd say it's more on par with a clothes dryer. My cheap box fan is much louder. I ride mine on a concrete floor in my basement, but I do have neighbors on two walls and seriously doubt it would be audible for them. If you have neighbors below you, the vibration through the floor would likely amplify the noise and might be annoying for them. Either way, I'd strongly suggest getting a rubber mat to minimize this, and it'll protect your floor from sweat and keep the whole thing from sliding around.

As for the axle, you have to run a metal rear axle on the Snap. Most newer QR skewers have plastic ends and/or aero style levers that won't fit. The Snap comes with a compatible quick release skewer in the box, but if your bike has thru-axle or an unusual QR hub size, you'll need to buy one. This website can help you figure out what you'll need: https://robertaxleproject.com/
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