msu2001la

Also I just learned that elevation numbers to unlock the Tron bike only count if you're participating in the "Mt Everest" challenge. I'm still on the "Ride California" challenge, so I guess I'll have to finish that one (which unlocks an S-works Tarmac... not a bad prize), and then start in on the Mt Everest challenge.

atwl77

I was talking about the actual/physical trainer difficulty setting on the dumb trainers, which is often a dial or knob that you can attach to your handlebars.

jadocs

Spot on...I know a few people who use elevation in their training plan to do 1hr sweet spot or threshold sessions.


You have to find the right balance which considers the gearing of the bike you are using and your fitness level. Even the pro's have bikes geared for climbing when doing epic climbs. It makes no sense if your bike is geared a 53/39 - 11/23 to set it at 100% (which effectively replicates those gears) when you would really have a compact 50/34 and 11-32 or 11-34 in the rear if doing it for real.

That's the other thing people need to consider whenever someone says set it to 100%..... chances are they have a bike with compact (50/34) or semi compact (52/36) chainrings and at least 11-30 rear.....It's apples to oranges when someone else is running a standard setup...not nearly the same.

What someone needs to do is find the TD setting that allows them one extra gear to fall back on while they are spinning at sweetspot or threshold power. This ensures that you will stay working, and you will have that one gear to fall back on just in case.

Thomas15

As a point of information, you can switch between challenges and not lose anything you have already acquired. So if you are going to do a ride with a lot of climbing change to the Everest Challenge, a flat route with a lot of miles use Ride California. Of the three challenges, the Everest is by far the most difficult but offers the best in-game reward. The California and Italy only require miles, the Everest only requires feet or meters of ascent.

gthomson

I did the Italian Challenge and the reward was the Pinarello Dogma F8 which I was super excited about. It's my go to bike now of all the bikes in my collection, mostly because i wish I was riding one in real life! I know the Tron bike is the ultimate goal for most, but if you look online there are a few other bikes that are comparable or close to it in performance, weight, etc....

Thomas15

I can understanding using a virtual bike that you either own or want.

For me I don't think I've used the Dogma F8 yet. Usually for climbing I use the Specialized Tarmac Pro with Millies, for when I think I'm a racer (LOL) the Venge S-works with either ZIPP 808 or ENVE 8.9 all other riding I use the Tron. I'm not sure that wheels make a difference to a guy at my fitness level, I have about 6 million drops to spend, could get better wheels but I doubt it would make me any faster.

spelger

I have read on zwift insider that you must complete the everest challenge for it to count before changing challenges. the climbing must be consecutive to count. so, switch challenges at your own risk, it would be a shame to have to start over.

surak

Nah, you can always change challenges and keep progress. I switched all the time, including in the middle of riding, depending on how hilly or flat the route was. You're probably confusing what ZwiftInsider was saying, which is that elevation gain only counts for the challenge when it's active.

genejockey 

You might also be able to put out the same power at a higher cadence with a lower Trainer Difficulty setting. Probably not if you change it from 100% to 50%, though.

spelger

I feel like i did something dirty if it is not set to 100%.

genejockey 

Like swapping in an 11-34 to replace an 11-28?

spelger

yeah.

atwl77

But the thing about Zwift's trainer difficulty slider is that it affects both uphill and downhill. At 50%, a 10% climb on Zwift would feel like a 5% climb and a -10% descent will only feel like a -2.5% descent. Which may actually be a good thing when racing... but just throwing it out that the cassette swap analogy is only half the story.
Zwift Trainer Difficulty on Descents: Did You Know? - Zwift Insider

genejockey 

Good point. In fact just last night I did the Innsbruck Short Lap, which has a big climb and steep descent, at 100%, which meant even though I suffered on the way up, I was able to spin up to 36 mph and use the "Super Tuck" to rest on the way down. That would have been a lot harder at the 50% setting.

msu2001la

I did the Radio Tower climb today. I love that mountain route. 18.9 miles, 2240ft of climbing. I banged it out in a little over an hour total, with 30-40 mins of solid climbing.

I ran today's ride at 100% on the trainer difficulty just to see how it went. My previous attempts had been done at 50% and 75%. The bike I use on my trainer is a 1x setup with 42T ring, paired with an 11-32 cassette. So, not super climb-friendly, but not terrible either.

I PR'd the "Epic KOM" today with that setting, and for the most part was riding in the 25 or 28 on that section. My average cadence over that stretch was 77.
The bonus climb section where it kicks up between 10-15% is pretty tough. I was in the 32 the whole way on that and definitely at/near the limit, but managed to keep my average cadence at 76. That bonus climb is only around 10 minutes for me, so I knew I could just grind it out.

When I think about doing longer climbs like Ven-Top or Alpe again, I'll probably lower the difficulty setting back down a bit just so I have some bail-out gearing available if I feel like I'm about to pop. 10 minutes of mashing in my 32 gear is fine. 60 or 90 mins... not so much. This all makes sense to me because there's no way I'd try to do a major mountain climb with a 42T 11-32 gearing. I'd at least want a 39T front ring.

caloso

These "smart" trainers sure seem to need a lot of tweaking. I'm not sure I'm smart enough to ride a smart trainer, so maybe I'll just keep my PM+fluid trainer and turn the pedals over harder when I want to go faster on screen.

genejockey 

I did that earlier this year, using a video someone recorded of climbing Old La Honda Rd in Woodside, and using my memory of it to adjust the gearing to how it feels at certain points - like the 20% grade on the inside line on that one hairpin - and it works, but it feels strange to shift to a bigger gear when the grade increases.

The thing I like about the smart trainer is that I can just shift like I normally would when the road kicks up, because it gets harder to pedal. Feels more like riding on the road, to me, which I need to stay engaged, if I'm not on the actual road. But you're right, you don't actually NEED a smart trainer.

Then again, I don't really NEED 4 bikes, either..........

gregf83 

I don't bother tweaking the settings on the trainer. It's enough that when I see the road tilting up I know to downshift as the resistance is about to go up. I'm not interested in perfect realism with built-in motors to generate trainer speed on downhills. I'm mainly interested in a workout and don't want to run out of gears while climbing or spin out while descending. There is a 'tuck' mode on zwift but I'd rather keep pedaling. Using the default zwift difficulty of 50% seems to work fine for climbing and descending. At the end of the day all these distractions like shifting or trying to maintain contact with a group just help to make the time go a little faster. I never had much luck trying to sprint on a KK trainer although I suppose it's feasible if you have the right tires and roller pressure. It's a no brainer on a wheel off trainer.

Atlas Shrugged

If simplicity is a objective perhaps a single speed coaster brake bike when on the road would be a way to go.

caloso

Fixed gear is simpler than a coaster brake.

msu2001la

I do all my training on a unicycle. Simplest of all.

msu2001la

I also recall reading that there is some high-end trainer that actually includes a motor to drive the flywheel on downhills to better simulate coasting. I don't see the point of coasting on Zwift, but I suppose it is more realistic.

Thomas15

I used for over a year a Zwift supported dumb trainer, mine is a Kinetic Road Machine with InRide3. During that year I did a lot of climbing, a lot.


My understanding is that Zwift came up with a formula that calculates power in watts for this and a few other dumb trainers. The formula mimics power readings in watts and the curve takes into account the predictable resistance increase that a fluid trainer produces when the rider increases either cadence or leg power. With this information, the Zwift program calculates the riders speed. On an incline, the rider must increase speed or power (or both) to keep moving forward. The end result is that a rider will need for example 180 watts to move at a speed of say 6 mph on a 8% gradient. The same rider on a flat (0% gradient) road might go 25 mph at that same 180 watts output.


Some riders, myself included, would rather grind away at a slow cadence on a steep incline. To keep moving forward, I might select a steep gear and low cadence. With the increase in the resistance caused by the fluid in the trainer, the combination of the two (steep gear and increased trainer resistance) I would experience a somewhat realistic hill climbing adventure but in a gear that I would never select out in the real world. For example, every single one of my 40+ rides up the Alpe du Zwift was done using the large chain ring.


The only other option would be to use a low gear and spin like crazy to achieve the necessary watts to keep moving. So I conclude that gear selection is a personal thing and for me a high gear works better than a low gear. Of course watts are watts but spend a few months on a trainer using high gears on a trainer then go outside a pull a hill you will at first by instinct select the wrong gear, too high, for the application.

Some here might disagree with me on some of my details or be able to provide additional insights but I think I have the basic theory correct. But this is my understanding of how Zwift works with a supported dumb trainer.

I have since moved on to a smart trainer. It took a little bit of time to get used to using low gears on the ascents. Now I have to use the small chain ring on my trainer which I had hardly had to do with my dumb trainer. With a smart trainer I feel small hills that I didn't know existed out there in Zwift land when I was using my old set up.


All of this is a point of discussion not a criticism of using a supported dumb trainer. Sometimes when logging into Zwift, during the pairing screen, Zwift would recognize my InRide as a controllable device. It isn't of course. Allow me to say that my dumb trainer and Zwift transformed my outside riding. In summary I would say that a smart trainer offers a more realistic ride but since watts are watts, a dumb trainer will achieve a fitness result if the rider does their part.

gthomson

Naw, it's as complicated as you want it to be. If you're really into the numbers your generating then yeah, you can go all out on trying to do the calculation on how to get your trainer to match out what it would be like in real life, but considering I'll probably never climb up Alpe D'Uez in RL I'm not gonna worry about it. With my trainer set at the Zwift default level (50%) the road starts to up and my wheel gets harder to pedal so I gear down like I normally would. I have a standard road bike gear ratio so I go down to the smaller ring for those bigger climbs and spin away.
In the end, the sweat carnage is apparent that I did a decent workout and that's all good.

genejockey 

I think most folks don't realize how much coasting one does in the course of a normal outdoor ride. It's not just descents, but rather a lot of brief moments, just a couple seconds each, like when you hit the flat part after a climb and just want to rest for a moment, or stand up and stretch, etc. On the road, you slow down maybe an mph or two, so whatever gear you're in is still fine and you just start pedaling again. On my old dumb trainer, if I stop pedalling, it spins down within a couple seconds, and starting to pedal again means pushing whatever gear I was in from a stop. With my month-old Kickr Snap smart trainer, the spin down is MUCH more gradual, so I can stop pedalling for a second and still be in the right gear to start up again. It doesn't quite coast like a real bike on the road, but it's a lot better!

Now, of course, most of that is the flywheel weight, but I don't know of any dumb trainers with that heavy, or that large a flywheel.

As far as descents go, the other night I used the super tuck on the descent from the Innsbruck climb on Zwift to rest my legs after the climb. It is unrealistic, of course, because if you descended at those speeds with no braking you'd die.