gerv 

I nearly choked on my oatmeal this morning when someone posted this article on Facebook.

Automakers to gearheads: Stop repairing cars

Might soon be a good time to buy some tools on Craigslist.

I just worry if Trek tries the same thing... just what I'll do.

Ekdog

Another in the long list of reasons why I thank my lucky stars I'm car-free.

Dahon.Steve

It's sad when you continue to read how the price of motoring continues to up with the passage of time. I think there's some unwritten law that states if you own a car, you're made of money!

We discussed a similar topic on the forum how computers today make it impratical to do a simple repair. Auto shops spend tens of thousands of dollars buying these computers with their secret "codes" making it impossible to do a simple tune-up. It's almost to the point where the car of the future will have to go back to the dealer for anything other than flat tire or oil change.

What the automakers want to do is outlaw the work being done by these shops and their computers.

I think this maybe the result of Generation Y not buying cars like their parents. The automakers need an additional source of income to make up for the lost revenue

I-Like-To-Bike

Couldn't find any info in the article that would indicate the issue discussed has any effect at all on someone living carfree or trying to live carfree. Also doubt that any of the issues addressed in the article would influence a single person to become carfree.

IMO, just another LCF thread about living with a car.

Roody

If you have a better idea, I'd love to see you start a different thread.

I-Like-To-Bike

My "idea" is not to start threads on a Living Car Free list that are based on articles, interesting or not, about cars, car expenses, and car repairs gleaned/trolled from the Internet that have nothing to do with living car free. Unless it is for the purpose of providing a rationale for the poster to declare once again "This is Why I Am Car Free!" in order to receive some electronic fist bumping from the support group.

I also don't see the relevance of starting threads on LCF that resemble personal blogs and travelogues with almost zero relevance to living car free, (i.e. car ownership is irrelevant to the thread) even if cycling related and/or posted by someone who may/or may not be living carfree.

Of course that wouldn't leave much posting traffic at all on this site.

wphamilton

I have no intention of repairing or modifying my car the way I used to with my typical old beater. Yet citing the DMCA and copyright law to prevent it is downright weird.

The DMCA does have a history strange interpretations, applied in ways never intended so I wouldn't discount it out of hand. But in recent years, in my opinion, the more outrageous applications have tended to be struck down and particularly where it conflicts with First Sale doctrine. Again in my opinion, first sale doctrine is applicable here. I'm not that worried that GM can apply copyright law to prevent unauthorized mechanics from repairs, nor that the DMCA exemptions that the EFF is requesting are necessary or will be granted. If exemptions are granted, doesn't that legitimize the weird interpretation that would make them necessary?

If there ARE exemptions granted for auto mechanics, what's to keep Shimano from legally prohibiting our repair of DI2?

bluebike1000

I think that they were mostly trying to copyright the on-board computer software in vehicles. This would probably apply a lot less to bicycles than to cars.

Trying to copyright ECU's seems like a bad idea in the long run, since third partys will eventually just design their own ECU units compatible with OEM ECU's. The copyrights will just make ECU units more expensive and less reliable.

wphamilton

Circumvention prohibitions, since the software is protected by password challenges and encryption. Altering or patching the software isn't actually a copyright infringement, but bypassing the security (hacking it) is technically prohibited. Copying the software after hacking into it, in order to examine it or analyze it for security flaws for example, can be considered copyright infringement. Of course in reality it is not, but the DMCA is so flawed that legal contortions are required for normal business, and that is historically exploited. Ruthlessly in my opinion. EFF, and other parties arguing for exemptions, probably have no choice if they want to stop auto manufacturers from exploiting it.

I am not a fan of that law. Security suffers when the software is hidden from view by legal means. Among other reasons.

Shimano could protect or encrypt the DI2 software and make the same arguments.

Speaking of legal contortions, GM argues that you don't own the software running your car just because you own the car.
https://copyright.gov/1201/2015/comme..._1201_2014.pdf

Artkansas 

SEMA, the Speciality Equipment Market Association, the association of automotive aftermarket industry, is not going to take that lying down. It's a big and active market.

Artkansas 

I think it's also a way to monopolize their own industry. That makes the car a life-long profit center, not just a single time. You can force consumers to upgrade their cars and buy new ones by refusing to provide parts for vehicles past a certain age, confident that an aftermarket company won't step in to fill the void. You can bring back business from local mechanics and Walmart. That also allows you to charge more for the service.

wolfchild

I think what is happening is that automotive technology is becoming very complex and very soon it will be impossible for a home mechanic to do any work or maintenance on their car in their own garage or driveway. People will have no choice but to go to a dealership or certified repair shop to get the work done. I owned several older cars in the past some of which were modified for performance and I did most of the work, maintenance and modifications myself, it was easy....I wouldn't touch a modern car, too complex.

katsrevenge

Our household hunk of filthy steel is an older one that is nearly computer free. It's nice that it is so cheap/easy to fix. The one before it had to be hooked up to a computer-not this one! Too bad it's on it's last er..tires.

gerv 

This kind of issue also tends to kill the software industry. It's hard to imagine how much more secure, durable and generally understandable when the code libraries you use are open source and public domain. Most of the products we use at work are open source, developed by the community. It's a phenomenon that has really shook software development... for the better... now the automobile industry want to hide what it's doing and avoid the scrutiny of its customers.

Hmmmm...

cooker

The automakers have a point. Not every home mechanic is competent or sensible. If individuals dangerously modify their cars or tamper with safety feature and that leads to a fatality, I don't want it to be me.

CliffordK

Hmmmmfffffff

I suppose I should get my car with points, non-synchro shifting, and long past any patent protection back on the road. 100+ year copyright?

Personally I very much dislike when a new car flashes "Check Engine" when it knows exactly what the error is, but refuses to tell the consumer. Sharing knowledge would also keep shops more honest.

Electronic tuning? I'm not too interested in it, but I could see a point that a company is responsible for the car, and can't guarantee it if someone is tinkering with the software.

This "Black Box" ideology is like selling a person a book, but telling them that they can't open it read the knowledge contained within. And, making it a crime to highlight one's college textbooks, or write in the page margins.

Jseis 

I'm a decent shade tree mech but I've not tinkered with a car sense the 80's. I mean really, compared to the 60's VW's I was constantly repairing, modern autos are a dream.

Dahon.Steve

A home mechanic who makes modifications with regards to the on board computer violated the warranty. The automaker is not responsible for these changes and it will be discovered at trial.

I happen to think these threads are useful because there are a number of lurkers who visit this forum thanks to Google. They are looking for a way to get out of the motoring life and a thread like this one could be the turning point. For those of us who are already do not own a vehicle, threads like this motivate to remain carfree.

Rowan

I am not sure that the posters here bar a couple understand that the modern car, with its computer controls over most things, will last a very long time. Many manufacturers are offering five-year warranties. The longevity of the modern automobile has actually increased over the ones from the 50s, 60s, even the 80s and 90s.

The most significant "throw-away" or disposable commodity issue is that because of crash and safety rules, the modern car has crumple zone that are virtually unrepairable and will leave a car with what used to be seen as minimal damage as a write-off; and in many jurisdictions, that also means they will never been licence-able again, so are headed to the car graveyard. Body shops are probably the most vulnerable right now as far as on-going business is concerned.

Just wait till electric cars really take a hold. No gearbox and comparatively few moving parts. You know how long industrial-grade electric motors can last. But as I have said before, the car as a form of personal transport won't be going away soon.

CliffordK

I've never owned a vehicle that was less than 5 years old, or had any kind of warranty.

A vehicle will last as long as one cares to maintain it. Perhaps the same with a bicycle.

A few things will knock them off of the road. A lack of availability of spare parts or "donor vehicles". A critical failure, or an excessively expensive repair.

For example a $20 clutch could knock a vehicle off of the road because they are a pain to replace. Perhaps some simple part inside of a transmission because few people tinker with the transmissions.

Ever see a "modern" car that starts disintegrating as the door locks, window rollers, and all the electronic gizmos start to fail.

Now it is almost hard to find a car that isn't filled with that electronic gadgetry... as if a person can't simply push a door lock button, or crank up a window.

Some cars are spared the car crusher because there are 3rd party vendors that take up making and providing spares for vehicles long after the original manufacturer has given up on them.

Tightening the reigns on these 3rd party parts could make it much harder to maintain older cars, and could lead to a much more rapid demise of cars as the manufacturers choose to sell new cars rather than helping owners maintain what they already have.

Roody

I used to take my last car to a major auto parts store when the Check Engine light came on. The counter guy would come out and hook up a little monitor and tell me what the computer said was wrong with the car. Then I would buy the needed parts and my favorite backyard mechanic would replace them for me. There was no charge for the diagnostic service, which took about two minutes. (Although the mechanic always wanted a 12 pack to do the actual repair.)

Is this no longer done?

Roody

This is my concern also. I don't want the computer controlling the brakes of the car pulling up behind me at a red light to have been hacked by some ninth-grader in Russia.

I'm still keeping an open mind on this issue, but I'm starting to think that vehicles driven on public streets should have higher standards for protecting software integrity, compared to the computer on which I post my precious thoughts to bikeforums.net.

Five or ten years from now, cars might be totally driven by computer software, with very little input from human operators. This software will be amazingly complex. Is it really a good idea for my favorite shade tree mechanic, who will fix almost anything for a 12 pack of beer, to be messing around with such advanced systems?

cooker

For my 2001 Volvo, my more mechanically adept son bought the USB adaptor that plugs into the car and communicates with your laptop, and he runs diagnostics all the time and reinstalled some faulty parts. However nothing critical to safety.

tandempower

They don't care about consumers being 'made of money.' It's all about getting people to spend credit and go further into debt. Remember, it is people in debt who are trying to spread more debt to others in order to pay off their debts. There's this irony that once someone spends their credit, the money circulates as if it was saved from years of diligently living below one's means.

I disagree. One of the perks of living by bike is that it's easier and safer to do your own repairs and maintenance. Also, many people are enchanted by motor-vehicles because they are good at tinkering with them and make money maintaining and repairing other people's vehicles. Eliminate this aspect of car culture and some minds and hearts might falter in their loyalty to the cult of the motor vehicle.

cooker

You don't think increasing car costs influences a single person to become car-free?