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Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

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Old 11-19-15, 08:40 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
Some topics relevant to carfree living include:
  • city planning,
  • land use and zoning,
  • taxation, subsidies, and revenues for highways, public transit, sidewalks, bike lanes, etc., and
  • regulation of pollution and climate change caused by car emissions
I think it is difficult to have a serious conversation about LCF without including topics like this which could be considered political when taken out of context.

Originally Posted by Roody View Post
Strangely, the people who complain loudly about political content are never known to even post in the "practical" threads, yet they will post dozens of times in a "political" thread.
Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Sometimes the censorship of politics is the most effective political move. Certain posters on LCF want automotivism left alone...
Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve View Post
The motor centrist who visit the forum fight with those who are carfree and they are the first to ask closing it down.
Originally Posted by loky1179 View Post
Why this forum attracts so many posters that love, love, love their cars, I'll never know. BUT THIS FORUM IS NOT FOR THEM! Read the forum description. If you love, love, love cars, just pass on by.

What really frosts me, however, is that the car lovers are the ones screaming to the mods and getting threads moved.
Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
It's odd how many car lovers are attracted to this little subforum and how vociferously they complain to the mods about us carfree people. I think it's because they sense that their world is changing, which terrifies them, and they come here to lash out at those of us who welcome what the future will bring.
^^^I hope the mods are seeing these comments. Please add me to the list. There are a couple folks here who are very pro-car and delight in snipping comments out of context to paint the rest of us in a certain light, and then responding to the false image they have built, instead of the real content. It's a very good bet the trollers are the same ones complaining to the mods when things aren't going their way. For some reason, they seem to delight in playing the victim for attention.

However, I think we've shown the ability to discuss the political issues related to LCF without any problems in the past. Most notably, the tone of the forum brightened noticeably when one poster was temporarily banned recently. I don't see why we always dance around the truth of the trolling, which is almost always the reason we get off track.

If we could address the trolling, which I find more offensive than politics, I think most of the problems would disappear. Maybe it's too hard to do it, or tough for the mods to enforce under the rules; I don't know, but I don't want to judge the mods for however they decide to proceed. I only want to point out that the mere entry of politics into the discussion is not the reason we have problems in here. We all know the reasons. I am not sure how we could solve all the problems, but moving any thread that touches politics will only cause this forum to dissolve to a glacial pace and become too dull to bother to visit.
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Old 11-19-15, 09:15 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by chewybrian View Post
It's a very good bet the trollers are the same ones complaining to the mods when things aren't going their way. For some reason, they seem to delight in playing the victim for attention.

I don't see why we always dance around the truth of the trolling, which is almost always the reason we get off track.

If we could address the trolling, which I find more offensive than politics, I think most of the problems would disappear.
I would not make that bet.

Trolling will never be addressed, namely because of certain long time members here who seem to be immune to disciplinary action despite that nearly everything they reply with are inflammatory or instigating remarks. Then you have the folks who cry wolf and report everything they don't agree with, citing offensive commentary when it is the wolf-crier who began the rant/troll/subtopic to begin with.

I.e., it's an internet forum, get used to it. Compared with other forums I have visited, bf is well policed and very well organized. I would say that the troll spats here are relatively tame and not worth fretting over.
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Old 11-19-15, 09:21 AM
  #28  
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I didn't receive any censure from the mods, or PMs. I made no complaints to the mods, and a few commented that I shouldn't be bothered by the harsher comments that weren't directed at me. They may not have been aimed, but they still struck none the less.
Someone mentioned their displeasure with how many non regulars would come in, drop a bomb, and leave. That tells me a lot. They visit, get turned off by the judgmental P&R content, make a parting comment, and leave for good.

I'm glad for the shakeup, LCF deserves to be more than somewhere to be measured and found wanting by the faithful.
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Old 11-19-15, 09:45 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by jfowler85 View Post
I.e., it's an internet forum, get used to it. Compared with other forums I have visited, bf is well policed and very well organized. I would say that the troll spats here are relatively tame and not worth fretting over.
ChewyBrian's post #26 hits the nail on the head. I'm not concerned so much with the negativity posted, though I think it darkens the forum when it happens. I'm more concerned with this game of getting the mods to move threads to P&R when they "touch on" politics, and then baiting discussions with politically-oriented comments to inflame a political discussion. It's wrong to complain about something and then provoke it for the sake of getting it banned.



Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
I didn't receive any censure from the mods, or PMs. I made no complaints to the mods, and a few commented that I shouldn't be bothered by the harsher comments that weren't directed at me. They may not have been aimed, but they still struck none the less.
Someone mentioned their displeasure with how many non regulars would come in, drop a bomb, and leave. That tells me a lot. They visit, get turned off by the judgmental P&R content, make a parting comment, and leave for good.

I'm glad for the shakeup, LCF deserves to be more than somewhere to be measured and found wanting by the faithful.
What if these posters dropping by briefly to 'drop a bomb' before leaving in this way are automotive lobbyists, unionists, or others who are more interested in ruining discussions on these topics than in expressing their point of view? If they are against car-free politics, why don't they post an anti-LCF forum somewhere and post invitations for LCF posters to come argue with them there about the benefits of automotivism? Why do they need to cause problems for LCF?

As for comments not directed at you, 'but which strike nonetheless,' that actually describes how I feel when I read most of your posts. They typically take something that I've been careful to say in a constructive way and re-interpret them as some kind of negativity-bomb, and then make a personal reaction that makes me feel like a mean person for having opinions. You can't take things that people say personally unless they're worded and/or intended that way. You have to give people room to express opinions that differ from yours and then just explain your reasons for disagreeing with them. Don't accuse them of hurting you personally for saying anything you disagree with. That's using emotion as a weapon in discussion.

Like with your comment that by suggesting anyone be free to perform blue collar labor, I am hurtfully threatening the job-territory of blue collar workers. That is so mean to frame in that way. Imagine if you wanted to be free to do something like, say, fishing on a public pier, and others fishing there approached you to tell you how threatening it was that you dared encroach on their fishing territory. They would basically be bullying you off the pier while blaming the victim, as if you were the one bullying them by showing up on the pier in the first place. Incredibly mean tactic.

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Old 11-19-15, 09:53 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
As an aside I've posted pics of the bicycle that I use instead of a motor vehicle for errands a few times.
In any other sub-form on BF there is usually a response pic of another member's bike or some comment whether it's Road, Commuting, C&V or any other sub-forum with interest in the machine and it's use. In LCF: Zero.

Oddly enough LCF is not actually interested in real bicycles used for car-free activities, it's not really a Bicycle sub-forum at all.

-Bandera
You've never participated on the many practical threads about LCF that I've started on this forum. But you post dozens of times on every "political" thread, in provocative, inflammatory tones. You also derail non-political threads with your extremist political opinions. You have done this many times. Then you have the nerve to complain that there are too many political threads. What is this behavior known as?
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Old 11-19-15, 10:16 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
You've never participated on the many practical threads about LCF that I've started on this forum. But you post dozens of times on every "political" thread, in provocative, inflammatory tones. You also derail non-political threads with your extremist political opinions. You have done this many times. Then you have the nerve to complain that there are too many political threads. What is this behavior known as?
Taking the bait. You're making it easy for them.

Ironically, or perhaps not, this thread is quickly denigrating itself by turning into exactly the kind of the thread it is criticizing.

/bf

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Old 11-19-15, 10:31 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
.BF management what say you?
The BF management already answered that question when they formed the LCF subforum years ago:
"Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here."
I could go into the reasons that descriptor was chosen, since I was involved in the discussions, but I'll spare you for now. Briefly, the goal was to make a forum that was about being carfree that wouldn't be "anti-car." I think that goal has largely been met, and the LCF subforum has mostly been a success.

Clearly LCF is meant to serve carfree/carlight people who use different means of transport. And it was meant to be a "lifestyle" forum, where people feel comfortable sharing information about their personal experiences. There is no mention of equipment and gear in the blurb, although I and others sometimes start threads on equipment and gear. (Strangely, these are threads that you never participate in, since you spend your time on the more "political" threads.) I'm sorry that nobody commented on your picture. A lot of the posts and even threads that I've posted don't get any comment either. But it's nothing personal, and you just have to move on.
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Old 11-19-15, 10:33 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by jfowler85 View Post
Taking the bait. You're making it easy for them.

Ironically, or perhaps not, this thread is quickly denigrating itself by turning into exactly the kind of the thread it is criticizing.

/bf
Good points. I'm listening...
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Old 11-19-15, 10:39 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
Good points. I'm listening...
I've done my share of trolling. On other sites, of course. The best thing to do when you suspect someone is baiting you is to simply ignore it. Trollers are clever folk who craft replies specifically to get a response, whatever that response may be. They are only in it for a reply. Remember, this is the internet and the time between communication does not have the social burden of spoken word, so the troller has time to analyze what you say, google some info in necessary, and retort with a comment just offensive enough to egg you on but not get banned.

The worst, most unsatisfying trolls are the ones which net no reply at all.
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Old 11-19-15, 11:26 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
Briefly, the goal was to make a forum that was about being carfree that wouldn't be "anti-car."
Fail.


-Bandera
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Old 11-19-15, 12:09 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by jfowler85 View Post
Ironically, or perhaps not, this thread is quickly denigrating itself by turning into exactly the kind of the thread it is criticizing.

/bf
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Old 11-19-15, 12:17 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by jfowler85 View Post
Taking the bait. You're making it easy for them.

Ironically, or perhaps not, this thread is quickly denigrating itself by turning into exactly the kind of the thread it is criticizing.

/bf
Er, a thread can't "denigrate itself". Nor can it criticize anything. Only people can denigrate, or criticize.
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Old 11-19-15, 12:42 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
Er, a thread can't "denigrate itself". Nor can it criticize anything. Only people can denigrate, or criticize.
Yeah, nits can't pick themselves either.
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Old 11-19-15, 01:02 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by RPK79 View Post
Yeah, nits can't pick themselves either.
I don't see any reason to believe that. Depending on the sense in which you use the the word "pick", anyway... .

Being literate is one of the nicer features of most of the LCF regulars, in my view.
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Old 11-19-15, 01:27 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by chasm54 View Post
Er, a thread can't "denigrate itself". Nor can it criticize anything. Only people can denigrate, or criticize.
This is what we refer to as figurative speech, sometimes also called a locution in colloquy.
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Old 11-19-15, 01:51 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by jfowler85 View Post
This is what we refer to as figurative speech, sometimes also called a locution in colloquy.
You're doing it too.
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Old 11-19-15, 02:10 PM
  #42  
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Since we're now discussing language, I wanted to comment on the language in the forum title: "Living Car-Free".
In a way it is a loaded statement, since the phrase "car-free" implies that cars are something to be free of, but that's not what I mainly want to discuss. The word that stands out is "living". Living includes a lot: at least, what you think and what you do. And we don't live in a vacuum - we live in society and interact with it. So I think a discussion of 'living car-free" properly includes how car-free and wannabe car-free people act, how they think, and also how they interact with society at large. That would include how society accommodates car-free living, how it may or may not support or discourage it, and how car-free people vie with other groups for social and economic supports. To me all this is part of "living". I would hope the moderators will understand this.
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Old 11-19-15, 02:33 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Since we're now discussing language, I wanted to comment on the language in the forum title: "Living Car-Free".
In a way it is a loaded statement, since the phrase "car-free" implies that cars are something to be free of, but that's not what I mainly want to discuss. The word that stands out is "living". Living includes a lot: at least, what you think and what you do. And we don't live in a vacuum - we live in society and interact with it. So I think a discussion of 'living car-free" properly includes how car-free and wannabe car-free people act, how they think, and also how they interact with society at large. That would include how society accommodates car-free living, how it may or may not support or discourage it, and how car-free people vie with other groups for social and economic supports. To me all this is part of "living". I would hope the moderators will understand this.
I agree. I think some people are forgetting the distinction between "politics" and "policy. Although spelled similarly, they have different meanings. I don't think politics is usually relevant on this forum, but policy often is.

But I think we might be losing sight of the bigger issue. I think people should be able to feel comfortable expressing their opinions without being carpet bombed, having their threads totally derailed then moved away, or being called a failure. I think three or four people are responsible for most of this abuse, and they should be dealt with fairly and firmly.
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Old 11-19-15, 02:35 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Fail.


-Bandera
I get that you disagree with me. But you fail to tell me how I have failed, so I can't respond and you have stopped the conversation. You also made me feel a little bad, which probably was your intention.
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Old 11-19-15, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
You're doing it too.
I was trying be sly...
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Old 11-19-15, 02:37 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by jfowler85 View Post
I was trying be sly...
Me too!
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Old 11-19-15, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Fail.


-Bandera
The anti-trolling thread is rife with trolling.
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Old 11-19-15, 02:48 PM
  #48  
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I think the biggest issue with LCF is there's basically 2 separate camps on the subject. Those to whom it's an ideology defined by right, and wrong. Then there's those who consider it a practical matter defined by what works and what doesn't.

Pragmatism, and morals often don't mix well.
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Old 11-19-15, 03:00 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
I think the biggest issue with LCF is there's basically 2 separate camps on the subject. Those to whom it's an ideology defined by right, and wrong. Then there's those who consider it a practical matter defined by what works and what doesn't.

Pragmatism, and morals often don't mix well.
They mix...with great difficulty. I often find it helpful to discuss my internal conflict between idealism and reality. Discussions here on LCF have been helpful on a number of occasions. But I was able to discuss only when I had a certain assurance that I would not be attacked personally or ridiculed. Right now, I'm not so sure... Right now, I'm hoping that the small number of trolls (not you!) will move along, or better yet, change their ways and learn to respect others even while disagreeing with them.
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Old 11-19-15, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart View Post
I think the biggest issue with LCF is there's basically 2 separate camps on the subject. Those to whom it's an ideology defined by right, and wrong. Then there's those who consider it a practical matter defined by what works and what doesn't.

Pragmatism, and morals often don't mix well.
I think the supposed moralizing is as often as not inferred by the reader, rather than intended by the writer, but even if some people do have strong opinions on what is "right" or "wrong", it doesn't have to be taken personally or become a reason to launch all-out war - these are just differences of opinion and values such as all humans have. As you (I think) pointed out, one's car use is not the be all and end all of their value as human beings, so if a poster says "cars are selfish," as somebody did. that doesn't mean that a whole cabal of LCF ideologues agree that anybody who owns a car is evil. Even if "cars [are] selfish", we all have a mixture of selfish and self-less traits or behaviours - that's normal and in fact necessary for survival. Plus, some of the ones who are most hostile to the supposed anti-car ideology, are in fact themselves very car-light or even car-free, and nobody is going to criticize their personal lifestyle, even if we all have different reasons for minimizing or avoiding car use, and argue intensely about those reasons.

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