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Trams

Old 08-22-16, 09:07 AM
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Trams

Does anyone have experience with using trams (outside of amusement parks) for LCF? I googled some information on them and came up with this site, https://www.motoelectricvehicles.com/...passenger-tram, which advertises 28 passenger trams that are electric and go 25mph. There are open-air and closed-door models but I think the open-air models might be more efficient for passengers to board and exit during seasons when open-air rides would be tolerable.

Most importantly, I could see such vehicles being useful instead of buses in areas designed specifically for LCF with only MUPs/bike-paths and no large cars or buses allowed.
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Old 08-22-16, 09:27 AM
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This looks like a private vehicle used within a large facility or by tourism companies that handle crowds. Some airports have vehicles like this within the property, that shunt you to a satellite terminal, or even take you to/from a jumbo sized plane parked away from terminal. I rode in one (but I can't remember if it was O'Hare or maybe Atlanta) one time several years ago.

The Toronto Island Airport entrance is in a very congested pier area, and they have a free shuttle (basically a small bus) that takes passengers a few blocks to a more convenient central location near the rail station, a couple of major hotels and the subway. So to a small degree, it may help some travelers avoid single passenger cabs or car rental. However you can simply walk a block and catch a streetcar instead.

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Old 08-22-16, 10:20 AM
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When I was doing regular trips to SF, I would fly into SFO where they have a tram -- very different from the one linked in the OP, it runs on rails -- which runs in a loop around the various airline terminals, car parking, and for my use, BART rail system. Between the tram at the airport and BART, I could travel car-free. One trip, I rented a bike; another trip, I brought along a folding bike -- both involved an extra level of hassle, so I resigned myself largely to walking in the city, BART trains and buses if I needed to go further distances.
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Old 08-22-16, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mconlonx
Between the tram at the airport and BART, I could travel car-free.
My business travel varies from car-free to car-heavy. When I depart Toronto I can take public transit if I am using either the downtown island airport, or the train station, but for the main airport I usually take a cab as I don't live anywhere near the express train. Also, if I have more than basic carry-on* (ie. more than a 3 day trip) I might take a cab whichever option I am using, or have family drive me.

If I am going to Montreal, Ottawa or Sault Ste Marie, I am usually car-free while I am there except that I might take a cab to or from the station or airport in the latter two, as they are not downtown. For Montreal, I would stay at a hotel within a block or two of the rail terminal, so that trip is typically all car-free.

Once a year I go to a more remote site where you have to fly 1000 km and then drive 200 km, and there is no practical option except to rent a car for the second leg, as there is no regular train or bus service at that end.




*A crow approaches an airline counter, dragging a dead rat.
"Do you want to check that?" asks the clerk.
"No thanks," replies the crow, "it's carrion".

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Old 08-23-16, 03:00 AM
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Does anyone have experience with using trams ...

These ...
Yarra Trams - Home

Trams - Public Transport Victoria


And ...

Hong Kong Tramways - Ding Ding


And we saw lots of these, but walked around Zermatt rather than making use of public transportation ...

https://www.zermatt.ch/en/arrival
https://www.zermatt.ch/en/arrival/Get...nd-the-village
https://www.zermatt.ch/en/arrival/Get...-elektromobile

Last edited by Machka; 08-23-16 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 08-23-16, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
These ...
Yarra Trams - Home

Trams - Public Transport Victoria


And ...

Hong Kong Tramways - Ding Ding


And we saw lots of these, but walked around Zermatt rather than making use of public transportation ...

Arrival at car-free Zermatt
Zermatt ? the Rediscovery of Walking
Electric buses | Zermatt, Switzerland
Thanks for posting, Machka. I'm familiar with these types of trams, but what I'm really referring to are these small EVs like in the link I posted in the OP. I'm not exactly sure what to call them, but maybe the thread should be retitled when I figure it out.

Rail-based trams may be efficient because of low rolling-resistance, but I am thinking about the sheer mass and size of such vehicles, as well as buses. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be good to have smaller buses that can drive around a forested area on a relatively narrow bike-path/MUP without having to trim tree limbs too high or pave the trail too thick for a heavy-weight vehicle like a bus.

Btw, at first glance I thought the sign on the Zermatt website read "taxi catastrophe" instead of "taxi Christophe," lol.

Last edited by tandempower; 08-23-16 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 08-23-16, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
Thanks for posting, Machka. I'm familiar with these types of trams, but what I'm really referring to are these small EVs like in the link I posted in the OP. I'm not exactly sure what to call them,
I'm more used to "tram" being used as a synonym for "streetcar" similar to the light-rail vehicles Machka showed, rather than the non-rail EVs you posted. I would be more likely to call those "shuttle buses" or just "shuttles" if they are used to take groups of people back and forth between a fixed pair of locations like a cruise ship wharf and a hotel. I guess "shuttle" refers more to the usage - shuttling back and forth. In fact the website uses both "tram" and "shuttle" to describe them.

Do you know if they are "street legal" or can only run on private property?

Last edited by cooker; 08-23-16 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 08-23-16, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
I'm more used to "tram" being used as a synonym for "streetcar" similar to the light-rail vehicles Machka showed, rather than the non-rail EVs you posted. I would be more likely to call those "shuttle buses" or just "shuttles" if they are used to take groups of people back and forth between a fixed pair of locations like a cruise ship wharf and a hotel. I guess "shuttle" refers more to the usage - shuttling back and forth. In fact the website uses both "tram" and "shuttle" to describe them.
I googled "shuttle bus" and got this, which is what I think of as being a shuttle bus.
Idk if those little open-air EV 'buses' are street legal but I'm not going to let that stop me from considering why they should be.
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Old 08-23-16, 04:24 PM
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Try

TRACKLESS TRAIN or TRACKLESS TROLLEY

"Tram" most often refers to a car on tracks, a synonym for trolley or what we in the US call a streetcar.
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Old 08-23-16, 04:38 PM
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Someone here bought one from an amusement park and moved it To town .

calling it the Glam Tram , a rolling Party for Pub Crawls .. he also used it to bring aroumd flowers for Mothers day to the old dears in elder care & prezzies foe Xmas.

https://chambermaster.blob.core.windo.../3854/tgt3.jpg

Neuveau name for street cars is Light rail,

Europe rebuilt theirs US tore theirs up and Burned it and Made Transportation Private .
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Old 08-23-16, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
Idk if those little open-air EV 'buses' are street legal but I'm not going to let that stop me from considering why they should be.
You mentioned that you saw these vehicles as perhaps being a supplement to walking inside designated car-free zones in cities. In fact that is more or less what is going on in Zermatt in the links Machka posted, so that is kind of a proof of concept. You also mentioned their use in amusement parks. Of course it makes sense to have this option in an otherwise pedestrian area, especially for people with mobility issues, or even for people who are simply tired after an hour or two of strolling. In the ski village of Mont Tremblant Resort in Quebec, they have a free cable lift that carries passengers from the low end of the village up to the high end, presumably so if you are tired after a day of skiing and a night of drinking you don't have to hike up to the Fairmont or the Hilton under your own power. So a similar function. Presumably these free, casual services will mainly be used in defined shopping and tourism districts where the merchants will pay for them on the assumption they are good for business, so I am not sure they are applicable to LCF in general

Last edited by cooker; 08-23-16 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 08-23-16, 04:47 PM
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I believe some of the national parks use similar vehicles to reduce car traffic within the parks. Sorry, I don't remember what they call them.
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Old 08-23-16, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Neuveau name for street cars is Light rail.
In Toronto we tend to use the term "streetcar" for a single car, non-flexing vehicle that runs on rails in the open street, and "LRT" (light rapid transit") for slightly longer, bendable, multi-car units that run in a protected corridor. However they use an interconnected network of tracks, so some "streetcars" run in the LRT corridors. Both are "light rail" in the sense that they aren't traditional full-size passsenger trains, like Amtrak, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_streetcar_system
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...-lrt-1.3404860

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Old 08-24-16, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cooker
You mentioned that you saw these vehicles as perhaps being a supplement to walking inside designated car-free zones in cities. In fact that is more or less what is going on in Zermatt in the links Machka posted, so that is kind of a proof of concept. You also mentioned their use in amusement parks. Of course it makes sense to have this option in an otherwise pedestrian area, especially for people with mobility issues, or even for people who are simply tired after an hour or two of strolling. In the ski village of Mont Tremblant Resort in Quebec, they have a free cable lift that carries passengers from the low end of the village up to the high end, presumably so if you are tired after a day of skiing and a night of drinking you don't have to hike up to the Fairmont or the Hilton under your own power. So a similar function. Presumably these free, casual services will mainly be used in defined shopping and tourism districts where the merchants will pay for them on the assumption they are good for business, so I am not sure they are applicable to LCF in general
I wasn't arguing against Zermatt or anything else, per se'. I was just thinking of these light/narrow/low multi-passenger EVs because they would be smaller and lighter than traditional buses or even the light rail (trams and otherwise) discussed here. Amtrak trains are simply huge and massively heavy. Light rail is lighter but still pretty big. My thought is that much smaller vehicles could be used, which would allow them to operate in smaller corridors, meaning less clearing of tree canopy. I'm sure many people are sick of hearing me prioritize tree/forest canopy volume, but that is just a major concern I have when considering what direction road corridors could/should evolve in. For some people, LCF may be exclusively or primarily about the kind of vehicle(s) they use to get around, but I look at the travel corridor as part and parcel of transportation, the way the railroad is part of the train system. When I look at a behemoth double-decker bus like the one being initiated in China, my thought is that traditional buses are already quite large and require a lot of low-hanging limbs and branches be cut. I'm wondering if smaller EV 'microbuses' could suffice instead of larger buses so I posted this thread to see if others had experienced the use of such microbuses instead of traditional buses anywhere, and to discuss whether people think it could be feasible to replace entire bus fleets with them in certain areas and/or not in others, etc.
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Old 08-24-16, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
I wasn't arguing against Zermatt or anything else, per se'. I was just thinking of these light/narrow/low multi-passenger EVs because they would be smaller and lighter than traditional buses or even the light rail (trams and otherwise) discussed here.
That is what's in Zermatt ... light/narrow/low multi-passenger e-vehicles.





The next two pictures are mine from when Rowan and I visited Zermatt.

There were several of these dashing about. They probably could fit on a MUP ... not that you'd want them on a MUP.



You can see a slightly larger e-bus in the distance, but even it is actually quite small.

Last edited by Machka; 08-24-16 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 08-24-16, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
I googled "shuttle bus" and got this ...
Google "electric shuttle bus"
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Old 08-24-16, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
Google "electric shuttle bus"
Ah yes, that brings a lot more images of the kind of small buses I was talking about. Thanks.

Still, there are some regular-sized buses that are electric so could I use the term, "microbus?" Presumably they are all electric since a combustion motor on such a small vehicle would probably be too loud, though I have seen combustion-powered golf carts (they were loud).

Can the thread title be changed to "microbuses" or "electric microbuses?'
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Old 08-24-16, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
Most importantly, I could see such vehicles being useful instead of buses in areas designed specifically for LCF with only MUPs/bike-paths and no large cars or buses allowed.
+1

It's key that no car, truck or bus are allowed on the same road as these open road jitneys. However, there are now electric buses so there's really no need to have a smaller vehicle.

I still prefer light rail since there's no access for the disabled.
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Old 08-25-16, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Dahon.Steve
+1

It's key that no car, truck or bus are allowed on the same road as these open road jitneys. However, there are now electric buses so there's really no need to have a smaller vehicle.
Smaller vehicles allow for lower-hanging trees and trees closer to roads and intersections, which can also be narrower. I would like to see LCF areas where everything fits within the tree canopy instead of clearing out swaths and corridors from it to have paved areas and buildings. This would be the most sustainable way to have human development.

I still prefer light rail since there's no access for the disabled.
The link I posted in the OP advertises models with wheelchair accommodation.
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