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LCF is a circumstance not a lifestyle...

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LCF is a circumstance not a lifestyle...

Old 10-13-16, 09:30 AM
  #1  
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LCF is a circumstance not a lifestyle...

Arguing for or against LCF as an idea is futile because such arguments only make sense when put into a context that then gets the thread tossed into P&R.
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Old 10-13-16, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Arguing for or against LCF as an idea is futile because such arguments only make sense when put into a context that then gets the thread tossed into P&R.
Apparently, to compete with driving, LCF has to put up the money to advertise and promote the way car dealers, insurance companies, and fuel distributors do. We are not allowed to use internet forums to discuss the merits and benefits of LCF. It would be interesting whether cars and driving would be as popular if they had been limited to using online discussions to promote their products throughout their 20th century growth phase.
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Old 10-13-16, 09:43 AM
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There are more than 7 billion people in the world. Most of them value convenience. For the vast majority, not having a car is a circumstance not of their choosing.

For some of us, cars are a mixed blessing. Right now we're being hit with the worst storm we've had in more than 50 years. There's no way I'd go out and ride in this, but I need to keep my job and they need me to work. I'm glad to have a car to get to and from the office. I won't use it to get around town though, parking and traffic make it too inconvenient, I'd rather walk.
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Old 10-13-16, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
There are more than 7 billion people in the world. Most of them value convenience. For the vast majority, not having a car is a circumstance not of their choosing.

For some of us, cars are a mixed blessing. Right now we're being hit with the worst storm we've had in more than 50 years. There's no way I'd go out and ride in this, but I need to keep my job and they need me to work. I'm glad to have a car to get to and from the office. I won't use it to get around town though, parking and traffic make it too inconvenient, I'd rather walk.
If LCF was predominant, there would be storm days and/or telecommuting. In short, the only reason you even need to drive to work on a storm day is because of car-centric culture.
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Old 10-13-16, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
If LCF was predominant, there would be storm days and/or telecommuting.
Is that how it works for the workers in the third world countries/economies where living car free is predominant? Care to point out a few examples in the real (not fantasy) world with which you are familiar?
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Old 10-13-16, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
If LCF was predominant
If my grandmother had boy parts, she would be my grandfather. (But she doesn't, so she isn't.)

Now you're talking about in the rich parts of the world, of course. Living without a car is predominant in the poor parts of the world, and not by choice. That's what this thread is about.
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Old 10-13-16, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Is that how it works for the workers in the third world countries/economies where living car free is predominant? Care to point out a few examples in the real (not fantasy) world with which you are familiar?
How can I point out examples of bike-centric employment culture in a car-centric employment culture? Really it would depend on the employer's expectations for business on a storm day. If they would expect plenty of business despite the storm, you would be expected to bike to work. If not, they might close their doors for the day.
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Old 10-13-16, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
If my grandmother had boy parts, she would be my grandfather. (But she doesn't, so she isn't.)

Now you're talking about in the rich parts of the world, of course. Living without a car is predominant in the poor parts of the world, and not by choice. That's what this thread is about.
What does any of this have to do with the fact that you only had to drive to work on a stormy day because driving is a norm?
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Old 10-13-16, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
There are more than 7 billion people in the world. Most of them value convenience. For the vast majority, not having a car is a circumstance not of their choosing.

For some of us, cars are a mixed blessing. Right now we're being hit with the worst storm we've had in more than 50 years. There's no way I'd go out and ride in this, but I need to keep my job and they need me to work. I'm glad to have a car to get to and from the office. I won't use it to get around town though, parking and traffic make it too inconvenient, I'd rather walk.

All the deaths (34?) in the recent storm on the East Coast was to drivers trying to cross fast moving water in their cars. All of them. Maybe bike riding in it isn't advisable either, but, just saying... most cyclists won't need to be told to stay off the bike. You already plan to head out in your car. Because you 'have to'. If the coming storm on this side of the country is as bad as predicted, people will die in Oregon and Washington as well, and they will likely be people driving at the time of their death. BTW there are more than 7 billion people around the world and the VAST majority of them do not have a word for "convenience" in their vocabulary.
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Old 10-13-16, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Arguing for or against LCF as an idea is futile because such arguments only make sense when put into a context that then gets the thread tossed into P&R.
Let's suppose you are right. LCF is a circumstance of poverty, poor life choices, a slacker mentality... Communism. And? What? What is it to you? You aren't any of those disgusting things... are you? <confused>
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Old 10-13-16, 11:26 AM
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What is LCF?
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Old 10-13-16, 11:35 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It would be interesting whether cars and driving would be as popular if they had been limited to using online discussions to promote their products throughout their 20th century growth phase.
Face it, if automobiles were invented today, there is no way they would be permitted on public streets.
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Old 10-13-16, 11:50 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by LHawes View Post
What is LCF?
Living Car Free. I can see how you could be confused. Most threads here extol the advantages of cars and how miserable life is without them.
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Old 10-13-16, 11:57 AM
  #14  
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
BTW there are more than 7 billion people around the world and the VAST majority of them do not have a word for "convenience" in their vocabulary.
No language except German has a word for schadenfreude. Which means other languages use a phrase instead of a word to say the same thing. (Certainly it doesn't mean only Germans ever feel schadenfreude! Word counting isn't that useful.)
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Old 10-13-16, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
All the deaths (34?) in the recent storm on the East Coast was to drivers trying to cross fast moving water in their cars. All of them. Maybe bike riding in it isn't advisable either, but, just saying... most cyclists won't need to be told to stay off the bike. You already plan to head out in your car. Because you 'have to'. If the coming storm on this side of the country is as bad as predicted, people will die in Oregon and Washington as well, and they will likely be people driving at the time of their death. BTW there are more than 7 billion people around the world and the VAST majority of them do not have a word for "convenience" in their vocabulary.

Driving your car into fast moving water is no more the fault of the car than it is the fault of the bike when the tire slides off the rim on a hot day when an experienced TdF rider leans into a sharp curve

...
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Old 10-13-16, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm View Post
All the deaths (34?) in the recent storm on the East Coast was to drivers trying to cross fast moving water in their cars. All of them. Maybe bike riding in it isn't advisable either, but, just saying... most cyclists won't need to be told to stay off the bike. You already plan to head out in your car.
There's a spot about 1/4 mile from my house where a cyclist was riding on the sidewalk after dark, and didn't notice the sidewalk has a flight of stairs. Probably a 25 foot drop. It killed him. All of the people who've ever died there were cyclists. This is a bike forum so I assume you plan to ride your bike.

See what I did there? In both cases we're blaming poor choices on operators' parts on the vehicles they were using when they made those choices. In both cases it's wrong and mostly unhelpful to.

I'm leaving work early to beat the traffic. Driving to work this morning was frightful and I don't want to repeat the experience. I was able to fix a customer's problem this morning. Our customers are hospitals, we take their issues seriously.

An email just went out, all employees who are not required tomorrow are advised to stay home. IT will send an email out at 4 am to let the people who need to come in know whether we have electricity or not.

Thank you for your concern.
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Old 10-13-16, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Driving your car into fast moving water is no more the fault of the car than it is the fault of the bike when the tire slides off the rim on a hot day when an experienced TdF rider leans into a sharp curve

...
and your point would be what, exactly?
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Old 10-13-16, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
If my grandmother had boy parts, she would be my grandfather. (But she doesn't, so she isn't.)

Now you're talking about in the rich parts of the world, of course. Living without a car is predominant in the poor parts of the world, and not by choice. That's what this thread is about.

I think what you are about to experience is called squirming. Let us dissect this statement.

"If LCF was (1) predominant, there (2)would be storm days and/or telecommuting. In short, (3)the only reason you even need to drive to work on a storm day is because of (4)car-centric culture.

1. I have visited and stayed in several places where LCF was predominant. There are places like Kenya where very few have a car and not many have access to any powered vehicles. So I can say I have been to such an area and viewed the situation first hand.

2. would be storm days and/or telecommuting. First understand time means very little to many in Kenya and opening time for a business seems to be a suggestion more than a reality. Open at Nine is more like somewhere around nine. Still they do have Monsoon like rain and wind storms and during this time people often do not make it to work. The business owner may or may not open that day but if they have employees they don't get paid when they don't work. So if one doesn't worry about getting paid just maybe they could take more storm days off. Schools often have storm days, but they must be made up by adding to the end of the year. Also I spent two days working in a clinic in Kenya and storm or no storm people would walk for hours in the rain to get to the clinic, both patients and staff. And I can assure you the times we sent our vans to pick up staff on those days no one refused a ride and stayed home.

3. the only reason There are many reasons you might have to drive on a storm day. Hospital work, police work, fire service work, utility service work. There is also the need to provide for your family and get paid. That was just as prevalent in the US and other western countries before the car was invented. I have worked for some big companies and the government and in both cases if the company or upper management said to stay home you would get paid. If you stayed home and others came to work you took a sick day or didn't get paid.

4. car-centric culture All of the first three apply even in LCF countries or societies so it seems as if the referees need to toss the fertilizer flag of the absolute statement about how things would work if we were just LCF.

But then that is just my opinion.

Last edited by Mobile 155; 10-13-16 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 10-13-16, 03:12 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Robert C View Post
Face it, if automobiles were invented today, there is no way they would be permitted on public streets.
Wow, I've never thought about that one. So true!
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Old 10-13-16, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
1. I have visited and stayed in several places where LCF was predominant. There are places like Kenya where very few have a car and not many have access to any powered vehicles. So I can say I have been to such an area and viewed the situation first hand.

2. would be storm days and/or telecommuting. First understand time means very little to many in Kenya and opening time for a business seems to be a suggestion more than a reality. Open at Nine is more like somewhere around nine. Still they do have Monsoon like rain and wind storms and during this time people often do not make it to work. The business owner may or may not open that day but if they have employees they don't get paid when they don't work. So if one doesn't worry about getting paid just maybe they could take more storm days off. Schools often have storm days, but they must be made up by adding to the end of the year. Also I spent two days working in a clinic in Kenya and storm or no storm people would walk for hours in the rain to get to the clinic, both patients and staff. And I can assure you the times we sent our vans to pick up staff on those days no one refused a ride and stayed home.
I also noticed visiting Amsterdam that no one took off on rainy days, but there's also a lot of emphasis on scheduling regularity and punctuality there; and social-pressure to conform.

I did the whole cultural relativism thing for years and eventually just got to the point of letting go of cultural norms and assumptions and thinking about what is possible if people think outside the box. Certainly it is possible to change your shop times or close for an entire day, especially if you aren't worried about keeping up with inflation and bills. If you want to be nice to customers, you can post a cell-phone number; but whenever I've encountered such a sign, I must admit I'm hesitant to call because I don't want to interrupt whatever the person is doing. This is silly, I know, because if they posted the sign they obviously want you to call; but I would feel more pressure to buy something and/or spend more money for making them go through the trouble.

For this reason and others, I favor larger retailers over small business. If people are being paid for their time regardless, there's less pressure not to waste it.

3. the only reason There are many reasons you might have to drive on a storm day. Hospital work, police work, fire service work, utility service work. There is also the need to provide for your family and get paid. That was just as prevalent in the US and other western countries before the car was invented. I have worked for some big companies and the government and in both cases if the company or upper management said to stay home you would get paid. If you stayed home and others came to work you took a sick day or didn't get paid.
You may have noticed I responded to a post by Machka about telecommuting with reference to cooking and cleaning jobs. Obviously different jobs have different kinds of requirements. Still, I believe there would be a lot more flexibility about taking days off if driving wasn't culturally dominant, the same way there is more flexibility for opening in the morning in a college town where many customers are sleeping in.

4. car-centric culture All of the first three apply even in LCF countries or societies so it seems as if the referees need to toss the fertilizer flag of the absolute statement about how things would work if we were just LCF.
Idk why you dissect my statements as if they are absolute. You don't understand the context of something and then you want to put it on trial as an absolute statement. You're just belligerent and seek out opportunities to fight and beat opponents.
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Old 10-13-16, 03:31 PM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
In short, the only reason you even need to drive to work on a storm day is because of car-centric culture.

This must be one of the most ignorant statements I ever heard somebody make...Let me correct your ignorance. The reason why people drive to work on a storm day is because there are things which need to be done daily regardless of the weather...
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Old 10-13-16, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I also noticed visiting Amsterdam that no one took off on rainy days, but there's also a lot of emphasis on scheduling regularity and punctuality there; and social-pressure to conform.

I did the whole cultural relativism thing for years and eventually just got to the point of letting go of cultural norms and assumptions and thinking about what is possible if people think outside the box. Certainly it is possible to change your shop times or close for an entire day, especially if you aren't worried about keeping up with inflation and bills. If you want to be nice to customers, you can post a cell-phone number; but whenever I've encountered such a sign, I must admit I'm hesitant to call because I don't want to interrupt whatever the person is doing. This is silly, I know, because if they posted the sign they obviously want you to call; but I would feel more pressure to buy something and/or spend more money for making them go through the trouble.

For this reason and others, I favor larger retailers over small business. If people are being paid for their time regardless, there's less pressure not to waste it.


You may have noticed I responded to a post by Machka about telecommuting with reference to cooking and cleaning jobs. Obviously different jobs have different kinds of requirements. Still, I believe there would be a lot more flexibility about taking days off if driving wasn't culturally dominant, the same way there is more flexibility for opening in the morning in a college town where many customers are sleeping in.


Idk why you dissect my statements as if they are absolute. You don't understand the context of something and then you want to put it on trial as an absolute statement. You're just belligerent and seek out opportunities to fight and beat opponents.
You made the statement absolute. If LCF then "would be" is absolute. "Only" reason is absolute. You make the assertion that the reasons for people having to work on stormy days is because they are car-centric an absolute, but i have shown it happens where people are LCF as well because or commitment, necessity or economics. So the "only" reason can not be stated as true.

ou might as well get used to the idea that just sometimes things need to be accomplished for society to function and someone just not wanting to do things will not work. Prior to the auto age people were expected to show up for work or they could be and often were replaced.

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Old 10-13-16, 04:22 PM
  #23  
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One thing I've learned here is not to poke the crazies in A&S and LCF. You just need to accept their views as your own and get off their lawn or you will be reported and they probably have the film crew in the back while they try to bait and provoke you. P&R yet? ****!

I think many are retired and dont have anywhere to be in the first place so they don't understand why the general population isn't going to sit and wait in the middle of the road for 2 minutes while they crest a hill.

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Old 10-13-16, 07:03 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I also noticed visiting Amsterdam that no one took off on rainy days...
[Snipped more of similar fluff]
And how the heck would you know that "no one" in Amsterdam takes off from their obligations, including work on rainy days? Or anything else you think you know something about when it is obvious that you haven't a clue about the subject?

Oh, I know, imaginative over-the-top, outside the box thinking, the same source for all your P&Rish and Fooish proposals, assumptions, theories and bizarre statements.
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Old 10-13-16, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
There are more than 7 billion people in the world. Most of them value convenience. For the vast majority, not having a car is a circumstance not of their choosing.
I disagree. Many of the ones who "can't afford" a car could probably afford to buy a junker from a wrecker if they made it a huge priority, but would get such limited value compared to the cost of operating it, that it doesn't make sense. So it is still a choice, albeit an obvious one, not to buy a car.
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