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Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

Subforum: Cycling -- in relation to LCF or LCL

Old 10-21-16, 09:11 PM
  #1  
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Subforum: Cycling -- in relation to LCF or LCL

Thanks badger1, I quote:

Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
I think this is a fair point, cooker.

However, I also think it raises one of what I think are the problems with this specific sub-forum: it -- that is, its description -- is rhetorically at odds with its more general rhetorical context, which is cycling (Bike Forums). Both the title and the description of this sub-forum suggest strongly that its focus is Living Car Free (or car light), with 'cycling' being incidental, just as you suggest. 'Cycling' is just one alternative among several possible alt transport methods listed within this sub-forum's description.

Consequently, this sub-forum is framed in such a manner as to invite threads, posts, discussions that have nothing whatsoever, even obliquely, to do with cycling.

To my mind, this sub-forum, if it is to continue at all (a separate question), should be re-framed so that its focus is squarely on cycling -- in relation to attempts to LCF or LCL, just as we have sub-forums for Road, for Mtb, for Commuting and so on.

And I think it would be a good idea. Let's try it! Let's put the emphasis in this particular subforum on cycling. After all, it is a subforum of Bikeforums, a cycling forum.

There are, I presume, other living car free forums and sites out there which deal with other aspects of living car free. I've started a thread in that regard which has had a response of sorts. So why not make this one focus particularly on cycling?

Or at the very least, on human-powered transportation.
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Old 10-21-16, 10:34 PM
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...apparently, it's a movement. That would explain the true believer mentality that has shown up here recently. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, this particular forum shows up at the top of a Google search for "car free living". I'ts even above Wikipedia, which is usually tough to beat. Anyway, here are some of the links from Wiki's entry on the car free movement.

External links:
Carfree.com
Car Free Walks UK
World Carfree Network
Towards Carfree Cities Conference Series
Institute for Sensible Transport
World Car-free Days Collaborative
CarFree City, USA
Carfree UK
Carfree France
car-free.org
Radio story: Car-less in Cleveland
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Old 10-23-16, 07:31 AM
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This is nothing more than an attempt by a few extremists to stifle any mention of multimodal commuting, public transportation or walking in LCF. Nor will they brook any criticism at all of automobiles or the car culture. The strict censorship of the forum that they propose would lead to far fewer posts and, probably, the end of this sub-forum, which is what they are really longing for anyway.

Last edited by Ekdog; 10-23-16 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 10-23-16, 07:41 AM
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It seems the OP is asking that threads such as this one be prohibited and sent to Foo.

https://www.bikeforums.net/living-car...alk-today.html
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Old 10-23-16, 07:59 AM
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To me the stated mission of this forum makes sense. BF is recognizing that a significant number of its members believe in driving less and riding more. It's not surprising that bicycling does not dominate the forum topics. There are usually better threads for bicycling-specific matters.

For example if you're into touring and you also live car free, where do you post touring topics? On the touring forum of course. If you commute by bicycle and you also live car free then where do you post commuting topics? Probably on the commuting forum. If you want advice on a cargo trailer then maybe you post here but there's a utility forum that might be better.

But if you're a bicycle commuter and hang out in that forum and have a growing interest in managing your life with less driving, then you can voice that on the LCF forum where you'll find like-minded folks and don't bog down the commuting forum (or touring etc) with your frankly unusual but thankfully recognized interests.
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Old 10-23-16, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
The strict censorship of the forum that they propose ......
"Let's put the emphasis in this particular subforum on cycling" isn't exactly the same as proposing strict censorship.
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Old 10-23-16, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
"Let's put the emphasis in this particular subforum on cycling" isn't exactly the same as proposing strict censorship.
The emphasis is already on cycling, and if they want to limit their posts to the cycling aspects of living without a car, they are free to do that, but that is not their intent. (If the OP wanted to see fewer posts about walking and public transit, she could start by not broaching the subjects herself. She is quite prolific when it comes to discussing walking, in particular.) What they would like to do is limit the focus of the forum so they will be able to run to the mods, shout, "Off topic!" and have the offending post or thread moved out of LCF.

Last edited by Ekdog; 10-23-16 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 10-23-16, 10:58 AM
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...
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Old 10-23-16, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...apparently, it's a movement. That would explain the true believer mentality that has shown up here recently. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, this particular forum shows up at the top of a Google search for "car free living". I'ts even above Wikipedia, which is usually tough to beat. Anyway, here are some of the links from Wiki's entry on the car free movement.
The "car-free movement" is a little different from "car-free living". The car-free movement is about places being car-free, like designated areas of the city. Living car-free is about people being car-free in their day-to-day lives. Of course they overlap, but they are not the same thing.
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Old 10-23-16, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
The emphasis is already on cycling, and if they want to limit their posts to the cycling aspects of living without a car, they are free to do that, but that is not their intent. (If the OP wanted to see fewer posts about walking and public transit, she could start by not broaching the subjects herself. She is quite prolific when it comes to discussing walking, in particular.) What they would like to do is the limit focus of the forum so they will be able to run to the mods, shout, "Off topic!" and have the offending post or thread moved out of LCF.
Okay so you disagree with the OP. Duly noted. We don't need one person hammering a point to death, this is a topic inviting opinions from all.

We also don't need finger-pointing and personalizations. Just leads to insults and rowdiness. Just discuss the issues.
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Old 10-23-16, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
The "car-free movement" is a little different from "car-free living". The car-free movement is about places being car-free, like designated areas of the city. Living car-free is about people being car-free in their day-to-day lives. Of course they overlap, but they are not the same thing.
...thank you for this clarification. I did not know that.
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Old 10-23-16, 11:37 AM
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I hope I'm not adding to the "hammering to death" BillyD mentioned, but I too think that even though the forum only exists here because of the strong association between cycling and LCF, once we agree to discuss LCF we should be able to discuss it a bit more broadly than only pertaining strictly to cycling. Participation in any thread is voluntary, so people who only want to focus exclusively on the cycling aspects of LCF are under no obligation to start, post in, or read threads of a broader nature, if that is not their interest.

Last edited by cooker; 10-23-16 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 10-23-16, 12:11 PM
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I think this is a good topic for the staff to discuss.

Hang tight.

In the meantime, I'd like to hear more opinions.
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Old 10-23-16, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
Okay so you disagree with the OP. Duly noted. We don't need one person hammering a point to death, this is a topic inviting opinions from all.

We also don't need finger-pointing and personalizations. Just leads to insults and rowdiness. Just discuss the issues.
I was responding to a response someone made to my previous comment. Isn't that what forums are all about--dialogue? Shouldn't the inconsistencies between the expressed attitudes and the actual behavior of those who propose this radical change in the nature of the sub-forum be open to comment and criticism?
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Old 10-23-16, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Siu Blue Wind View Post

In the meantime, I'd like to hear more opinions.
...my opinion (and it is only my opinion) is that once you get enough of an us versus them history in a given group of participants, it never really goes away. So I don't think there's an easy answer to the dilemma that has arisen in this particular forum.

I would also add that it is very hurtful that some would consider teh P+R to be a virtual cesspool ( I think I got that right), where everything that is transferred there is akin to some sort of punishment. Very hurtful indeed.
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Old 10-23-16, 01:14 PM
  #16  
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There's a certain irony here in that we are letting those who are not car free or car lite set the agenda here, by trolling the sub forum where they have no real interest and stirring the pot until you feel you need to step in. That makes no sense.

----------

Yes, it is a bicycle forum, but there's plenty of overlap with non cycling modes, because those who are car free by choice or otherwise are probably partly dependent on other modes besides bicycling.

EXAMPLES
-I do one way recreational rides that may be as long as 100 miles or more, and return by train/
-In NYC a fair number of people use the regional rails to get to nicer riding destinations in the surrounding areas
-I do one way shopping errands, where I'll ride to Costco, buy bulky stuff, and send it home by cab (with me riding within, or going home by bike.
-LCF folks often have 3 ranges, walking, bicycling, and mass transit, uber or a rented car when distance or load precude both

I could go on, but I think I've made the point.

I could do with less car bashing, especially since that's preaching to the choir here, and the reasons why people are car free, whether by circumstance or choice, are completely secondary to the reality which should be the focus here. .

Let's just talk about the joys and challenges of living without a car, in a neutral way, without being for or against anything.

IMO- we only have acrimony here when we cross into advocacy which is more for A&S or P&R. If we stick to the simple circumstance and practical aspects, we're pretty safe.

If the mods feel a need to impose limitations, I'd prefer that you restrict discussions of the side or motivational/political/worldview issues, and limit the focus to the practical realities, joys and challenges of car lite or free life.

BTW - if this whole thing is about a place for car lovers to extol their virtues and how they fit into a cycling life, maybe you can create a car lovers sub forum, and they can discuss love of various cars, how some are better for cyclists than others, etc.

That's about a dimes worth of my two cents.
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Old 10-23-16, 01:52 PM
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To members here on LCF who would like to see changes.

Be careful what you wish for, lest.....

There's nothing wrong with LCF as conceived and as described in the category heading. The forum doesn't need changing, conduct does. We shouldn't fool ourselves into believing that changes in the definition will change conduct, because it won't change how people act.

To the Mods.

Instead of changing the forum in ways that will be hard to define and control, maybe you can consider some basic forum rules of conduct, to wit;

Classify Trolling, defined narrowly as posting on a forum in a way that's generally insulting of it's membership, analogous to posting bout the joys of a good sirloin on a vegan forum.

Create a 3-strike rule whereby repeat posting of the same general idea is limited to 3 times (in the thread)after which someone cannot come back to the same thread unless he has something new, or XX number of posts have gone by. That may reduce some of the progressively acrimonious back and forth posts between 2 or 3 people we see so often on a variety of sub-forums.

Of course, neither of the above will really change anything, but they will provide Mods with tools (and threats) to shut down the worst stuff before it goes too far. Long term, accumulated warnings under your points system may help weed out the problems (people)..
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Old 10-23-16, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
To members here on LCF who would like to see changes.

Be careful what you wish for, lest.....

There's nothing wrong with LCF as conceived and as described in the category heading. The forum doesn't need changing, conduct does. We shouldn't fool ourselves into believing that changes in the definition will change conduct, because it won't change how people act.

To the Mods.

Instead of changing the forum in ways that will be hard to define and control, maybe you can consider some basic forum rules of conduct, to wit;

Classify Trolling, defined narrowly as posting on a forum in a way that's generally insulting of it's membership, analogous to posting bout the joys of a good sirloin on a vegan forum.

Create a 3-strike rule whereby repeat posting of the same general idea is limited to 3 times (in the thread)after which someone cannot come back to the same thread unless he has something new, or XX number of posts have gone by. That may reduce some of the progressively acrimonious back and forth posts between 2 or 3 people we see so often on a variety of sub-forums.

Of course, neither of the above will really change anything, but they will provide Mods with tools (and threats) to shut down the worst stuff before it goes too far. Long term, accumulated warnings under your points system may help weed out the problems (people)..
Don't forget that past crackdowns have led to sharp drops in participation. There is only so much that can be said about the nuts and bolts of riding a bicycle around town. The more censorship and the fewer subjects that are allowed, the fewer posts and threads there will be. The sage said, "Governing a great nation is like cooking a small fish - too much handling will spoil it." The same goes for our sub-forum.
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Old 10-23-16, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog View Post
Don't forget that past crackdowns have led to sharp drops in participation. There is only so much that can be said about the nuts and bolts of riding a bicycle around town. The more censorship and the fewer subjects that are allowed, the fewer posts and threads there will be. ...
That may be true, but this forum is about Living Car free, not enviromentalism, climate change, urban planning, activism or cars. Those are legitimate issues, but not for here. As has been said, BF is a bicycle forum, so thats what this sub-forum should focus on. In any case BF provides the lounge for the specific purpose of keeping these side issues out of the way of generally bicycle related discussions.

I actually don't want to change LCF, because there is something there, but in all fairness, if it changes or is eliminated it'll be because of idealogues, and the acrimony their zealousness causes. Save the preaching, we're all already in the choir, just by virtue of being here.

BTW - you might have noted, I wasn't actually looking to change the LCF rules. I was suggesting instead to address specific aspects of conduct in ways equally applicable to other forums. However, I'm not a fan of strict enforcement, and believe that most rules should be enforced far from the line, ie. enforce the 55mph speed limit when folks exceed 65mph.
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Old 10-23-16, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
this forum is about Living Car free, not enviromentalism, climate change, urban planning, activism or cars. Those are legitimate issues, but not for here. As has been said, BF is a bicycle forum, so thats what this sub-forum should focus on. In any case BF provides the lounge for the specific purpose of keeping these side issues out of the way of generally bicycle related discussions.
Well said, this is a Bicycle Forum is it not?

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Old 10-23-16, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Bandera View Post
Well said, this is a Bicycle Forum is it not?

-Bandera
Thanks, but OTOH I don't want to narrowly restrict the forum such that interesting side issues are out of line. For example, I considered the walking bus thread OK because the concept could be of interest or even of practical use to those dependent on bike transport and wanting an workable alternative for their children. (or because, like me, they don't like having to work their way through the congestion in front of nearby school).

The last thing I want to see is a forum that's "sanitized for your protection". I don't have issues with off topic side issues. Its the preaching and steady diet of "causes" and strawman arguments, that makes reasonable, friendly discussion here so difficult.

The problem isn't the forum, it's the people, and that's where any hope for improvement lies (or not).

To those who consider environmental activism important, ---- Bicycling is good for the environment, reduces carbon footprint, reduces urban congestion, and makes life better for everybody, not only the cyclist. (Duh). There I said it! IMO it's such a given that it doesn't warrant repeating more than once in the lunar cycle.
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Old 10-23-16, 03:07 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
That may be true, but this forum is about Living Car free, not enviromentalism, climate change, urban planning, activism or cars. Those are legitimate issues, but not for here. As has been said, BF is a bicycle forum, so thats what this sub-forum should focus on. In any case BF provides the lounge for the specific purpose of keeping these side issues out of the way of generally bicycle related discussions.
A second to agreement. The living car free and how it is done is what one would expect. The other things are debatable and political and have been argued many times in many other places. For the most part the sides on those issues have been taken.

At least it is something the moderators could look to do with as they see best.
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Old 10-23-16, 03:31 PM
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Just a quick note ... if you read my whole first post you will notice that I mentioned human powered transportation. Perhaps the main focus of this forum should be cycling and possibly also other human powered transportation. 😊
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Old 10-23-16, 03:37 PM
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It's a good thing that BF is a "bicycle" forum because we've just come full circle.

The current title and description:

Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

So, can someone tell me what needs changing?

Notice, it already mentions everything we've suggested so far, and the Discuss your lifestyle here makes it clear that we're talking about the reality, not the related arguments.

I'm an old school mechanic, and live by the rule "don't fix what ain't broke".

------------------------

However for those who need to change things, how about we strip alternative transportation and just say do you use bicycles,....

Then finish with "discuss the joys and challenges of a human powered lifestyle", to make it clear that it's not as much about not having a car as it is about the realities.
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Last edited by FBinNY; 10-23-16 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 10-23-16, 03:48 PM
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Machka 
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I will also add that I would still love to see a separate cross training forum created. Nothing to do with LCF ... but a nice addition to Bikeforums. 😄 😊
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