Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Living Car Free Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-26-17, 09:23 AM   #1
WizardOfBoz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Bikes: 1980 Schwinn Paramount, 2014 Trek Domane 6.9
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 322 Post(s)
A Cyclist - is a disaster for the economy

A fellow named Kaushik Patel posted this on LinkedIn:

A Cyclist - is a disaster for the economy:

1. He does not buy the car and does not take a car loan.
2. Does not buy vehicle insurance.
3. Does not buy fuel.
4. Does not use the services of repair shops and car washes.
5. Does not use paid parking.
6. Does not become obese.
7. Yes, and well, dammit ! Healthy people are not needed for the economy. They do not buy drugs. They do not go to private doctors. They do not increase the country's GDP ! On the contrary, every new McDonald's outlet creates 30 jobs: 10 Dentists, 10 Cardiologists and 10 Weight Loss Experts.

So, what do you prefer- Cycling or fast food?

I thought it was amusing. But when you think about it, bikes became very popular before cars. Cars were viewed as a natural progression (its sure easier going up a hill by burning long-dead dinosaur carbon than by metabolizing this morning's bagel). This progress drove industrialization, higher productivity, and so forth. Folks giving up cars and using bikes do indeed threaten the car companies.
WizardOfBoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 09:28 AM   #2
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Bikes: 8
Posts: 28,552
Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3012 Post(s)
Still lives in a house, rents or buys on mortgage, Pays for utilities puts purchases on a credit card.
cell phones GPS computers TVs , Eats , drinks .. wears clothes buys shoes..
fietsbob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 09:37 AM   #3
Marcus_Ti 
Furry Cruise Missile
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Posts: 2,843
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
A fellow named Kaushik Patel posted this on LinkedIn:

A Cyclist - is a disaster for the economy:

1. He does not buy the car and does not take a car loan.
2. Does not buy vehicle insurance.
3. Does not buy fuel.
4. Does not use the services of repair shops and car washes.
5. Does not use paid parking.
6. Does not become obese.
7. Yes, and well, dammit ! Healthy people are not needed for the economy. They do not buy drugs. They do not go to private doctors. They do not increase the country's GDP ! On the contrary, every new McDonald's outlet creates 30 jobs: 10 Dentists, 10 Cardiologists and 10 Weight Loss Experts.

So, what do you prefer- Cycling or fast food?

I thought it was amusing. But when you think about it, bikes became very popular before cars. Cars were viewed as a natural progression (its sure easier going up a hill by burning long-dead dinosaur carbon than by metabolizing this morning's bagel). This progress drove industrialization, higher productivity, and so forth. Folks giving up cars and using bikes do indeed threaten the car companies.
You're forgetting...

75% of Americans do not have a savings account and are living paycheck-to-paycheck. Most Americans are up to their eyeballs in CC/car-loan/mortgage debt too.

By not needing to waste money on the list of garbage up there, a car-light/free cyclist suddenly finds a wealth of disposable income to spend on consumer goods that goes back into the GDP/economy. Shoot, by simply not needing to park a car I have $2500USD/year in cash I can spend on other goods than parking.

Last edited by Marcus_Ti; 08-26-17 at 09:41 AM.
Marcus_Ti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 09:49 AM   #4
WizardOfBoz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Bikes: 1980 Schwinn Paramount, 2014 Trek Domane 6.9
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 322 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemtrailsnifer View Post
Nope. Do you really need this explained to you?
I'd suggest that any shift from one technology to another DOES threaten the former technology. I'm thinking in terms of the stories related in "The Innovator's Dilemma". But its clear you think I'm missing something. Splain.

BTW, does your avatar pic really relate what it looks like? The boot is on top of the bike handlebar. So the sign says "No riding bicycles here when you have someone standing on your handlebar"?
WizardOfBoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 09:50 AM   #5
Marcus_Ti 
Furry Cruise Missile
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Posts: 2,843
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
...
You realise this is how all insurance...for anything.... everywhere... at all times...since forever... works...right?

Last edited by BillyD; 08-26-17 at 04:53 PM.
Marcus_Ti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 09:50 AM   #6
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 25,458
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Still lives in a house, rents or buys on mortgage, Pays for utilities puts purchases on a credit card.
cell phones GPS computers TVs , Eats , drinks .. wears clothes buys shoes..
Most adult cyclists also still own and/or use motor vehicles when doing so suits their purposes.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 09:52 AM   #7
Wildwood 
Senior Member
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?
Posts: 6,142
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 841 Post(s)
Americans humans consume more of the planet's resources than any other creature.

Very overdue for a diet.
__________________
70s Follis 072/70s Carabela SemiPro/72 Zeus Competition/78 Batavus Competition/81 AustroDaimler Olympian/81 Mondia Super/82 Harding(Holdsworth) Special/85 EM Corsa Extra/86 DeRosa Pro/99 Pinarello Cadore/99 Calfee TetraPro/03 Macalu Cirrus/04 Tallerico
Wildwood is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 09:53 AM   #8
DrIsotope 
Non omnino gravis
 
DrIsotope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: SoCal, USA!
Bikes: Swiss Miss, Panda
Posts: 3,637
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1427 Post(s)
I would be a wonderful thing if it were true, but new bike sales have been falling for the past 15 years, while new auto sales have been climbing for 7 straight years. I don't necessarily notice more cyclists on the road compared to a few years ago, but I do notice that here in Southern California at least, seeing a car over 15 years old is like seeing a unicorn.
__________________
DrIsotope is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:06 AM   #9
General Geoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Bikes: '07 Cannondale F4, '97 GF Tassajara
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
You realise this is how all insurance...for anything.... everywhere... at all times...since forever... works...right?
No, typically insurance premiums vary considerably by an individual's risk factors. There's a whole field devoted to calculating this risk, called Actuarial Science.
General Geoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:09 AM   #10
Marcus_Ti 
Furry Cruise Missile
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Posts: 2,843
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
No, typically insurance premiums vary considerably by an individual's risk factors. There's a whole field devoted to calculating this risk, called Actuarial Science.
Indeed...which is why with car insurance, if you're a single male below the age of 25.....your auto insurance rate will probably plummet by 50% when you turn 26. Even if you never had a traffic citation.

It isn't a shocking upending of the universe that young people get shafted and pay more.


The "safe" or "low-risk" people ALWAYS "subsidize" those with high-risk and the tendency to need pay-outs. That is how insurance works. Regardless of the premium structure, that is how insurance is offered-and the insurance companies make money.
Marcus_Ti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:16 AM   #11
General Geoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Bikes: '07 Cannondale F4, '97 GF Tassajara
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Indeed...which is why with car insurance, if you're a single male below the age of 25.....your auto insurance rate will probably plummet by 50% when you turn 26. Even if you never had a traffic citation.

It isn't a shocking upending of the universe that young people get shafted and pay more.


The "safe" or "low-risk" people ALWAYS "subsidize" those with high-risk and the tendency to need pay-outs. That is how insurance works. Regardless of the premium structure, that is how insurance is offered-and the insurance companies make money.
No, that is how mandatory insurance works. In markets where insurance coverage isn't mandatory under penalty of law, the insurance companies must actually charge high risk individuals what it costs to cover their estimated claims, and low-risk individuals can usually purchase coverage for a song. An example would be life insurance.
General Geoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:24 AM   #12
FBOATSB 
Senior Member
 
FBOATSB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Indiana
Bikes: "electro forged"
Posts: 832
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
A fellow named Kaushik Patel posted this on LinkedIn:

A Cyclist - is a disaster for the economy:

1. He does not buy the car and does not take a car loan.
2. Does not buy vehicle insurance.
3. Does not buy fuel.
4. Does not use the services of repair shops and car washes.
5. Does not use paid parking.
6. Does not become obese.
7. Yes, and well, dammit ! Healthy people are not needed for the economy. They do not buy drugs. They do not go to private doctors. They do not increase the country's GDP ! On the contrary, every new McDonald's outlet creates 30 jobs: 10 Dentists, 10 Cardiologists and 10 Weight Loss Experts.

So, what do you prefer- Cycling or fast food?

I thought it was amusing. But when you think about it, bikes became very popular before cars. Cars were viewed as a natural progression (its sure easier going up a hill by burning long-dead dinosaur carbon than by metabolizing this morning's bagel). This progress drove industrialization, higher productivity, and so forth. Folks giving up cars and using bikes do indeed threaten the car companies.
Every penny "earned" of every citizen regardless of what toys you own is just just as much a benefit to the economy because those pennies will go to someone else very quickly.

And in before the move to that dark place down at the bottom of the list!
FBOATSB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:24 AM   #13
Nordo 
Senior Member
 
Nordo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Central Texas
Bikes:
Posts: 96
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 35 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rje58 View Post
. . .
You saw through the smoke and came up with the correct answer.

Last edited by BillyD; 08-26-17 at 05:02 PM.
Nordo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:32 AM   #14
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Posts: 6,992
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2671 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
No, typically insurance premiums vary considerably by an individual's risk factors. There's a whole field devoted to calculating this risk, called Actuarial Science.
yes, and Insurance Rates are set according to Actuarial Tables, .... which calculate how much to charge the people who will not need any insurance coverage from their policy, to pay for the people who need more coverage than their premiums pay for.

You know some big words but don't grasp the simple concepts.
Maelochs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:37 AM   #15
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Posts: 6,992
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2671 Post(s)
This is a comic topic suitable for The Onion.

The best thing Americans can do to pump up the GDP is drive their cars into expensive buildings full of expensive products and blow them up. The clean-up, repair, and replacement costs all pump up the GDP. The fact that tons of stuff are being wasted means nothing to economists, so long as the "right" numbers get bigger. Hurricane Katrina was one of the best things to happen to the U.S. GDP.

Anyone who cannot see some flaw with an arbitrary economic system which favors waste and destruction and sees efficiency and lowered unnecessary consumption as a bad thing .... You'd almost think numbers like the GDP are calculated with no eye to the long-term future, and the fact that All resources are finite.

IBTL.
Maelochs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:37 AM   #16
General Geoff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Allentown, Pennsylvania
Bikes: '07 Cannondale F4, '97 GF Tassajara
Posts: 273
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
yes, and Insurance Rates are set according to Actuarial Tables, .... which calculate how much to charge the people who will not need any insurance coverage from their policy, to pay for the people who need more coverage than their premiums pay for.

You know some big words but don't grasp the simple concepts.
Have you ever actually looked at actuarial charts?
General Geoff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:43 AM   #17
pvillemasher
Senior Member
 
pvillemasher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Austin Texas USA
Bikes: 1989 Trek 400, 2000 Lemond Buenos Aires, 2013 GT Attack, 2017 Lynskey R250
Posts: 175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
A fellow named Kaushik Patel posted this on LinkedIn:

A Cyclist - is a disaster for the economy:

1. He does not buy the car and does not take a car loan.
2. Does not buy vehicle insurance.

3. Does not buy fuel.
4. Does not use the services of repair shops and car washes.
5. Does not use paid parking.

6. Does not become obese.
7. Yes, and well, dammit ! Healthy people are not needed for the economy. They do not buy drugs. They do not go to private doctors. They do not increase the country's GDP ! On the contrary, every new McDonald's outlet creates 30 jobs: 10 Dentists, 10 Cardiologists and 10 Weight Loss Experts.

So, what do you prefer- Cycling or fast food?...
As someone already mentioned, most cyclists also own cars so numbers 1, 2, 3 and 4 are usually not true.

And I also read somewhere that the calories burned cycling cost more in food to replace than gas for a "normal" car (I dunno, 25+ mpg??).
pvillemasher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 10:45 AM   #18
WizardOfBoz
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Bikes: 1980 Schwinn Paramount, 2014 Trek Domane 6.9
Posts: 998
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 322 Post(s)
Gentlemen! Ladies! I posted this because I thought it was an amusing divertissement. I guess I should have realized that folks would take it too seriously. Sorry. But lighten up.

Also, this seemed to have spawned a digression between those who see the world in terms of Fidel Che Bin Laden Obama, and Adolf Benito Trump. I can't (won't) get into that except to say that after many years of being strongly political I've evolved to a new attitude that saves me a lot of time, a lot of worry, and is almost 100% reliable. Instead of trusting and liking one side, and doubting and hating the other, I now distrust and dislike both sides.

You'd be amazed at the time this saves.
WizardOfBoz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 11:12 AM   #19
Maelochs
Senior Member
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Posts: 6,992
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2671 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Geoff View Post
Have you ever actually looked at actuarial charts?
You do realize that insurance companies make profits, right?

If they assigned rates strictly according to actuarial charts, they would break even. They make their money by knowing, statistically, who will need how much care, and calculating how much to charge each person for each policy (also including what the salesman can sell.) But they assume that most people will pay money and never take it back out, or never take out as much as they pay ... they don't sell policies as cheap as possible, they sell policies for as Much as possible. They decide how much they can overcharge the people who won't need as much to build up the profit pool to handle the occasional catastrophe.

Recall how many insurance companies went bankrupt in Florida dn the Gulf states after a few years of really bad hurricanes? Why? because actuarial tables are statistical. Because rates have to match what the market can bear.

Insurance companies charge as much as they can .... all they have to do is being about the same as the competition, and while I doubt there is actual collusion, over time the firms have figured out what they can get away with charging.

yeah, you can get Cheaper insurance if you are younger, fitter, live a certain lifestyle ... but you are still paying into the overall profit pool beyond what insurance companies think you will take out later.

There is no way they could charge enough to cover the really expensive cases ... no one could afford insurance if every one of us had to pay in premiums, what it cost for the person run over by a car, or having a heart attack. And the companies cannot predict precisely how many people will need catastrophic coverage down to the dollar per day ... So ... the healthier people have to contribute to help the people who will eventually need more in care than they could ever pay out in premiums.

It's a business, after all.
Maelochs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 11:20 AM   #20
tagaproject6
Goodbye Leeroy Jenkins
 
tagaproject6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Campagnolo Record);Cinelli Xperience (SRAM Force);Specialized Allez (SRAM Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Campagnolo Centaur); Colnago AC-R Disc;Colnago V1r Limited Edition; Ridley X-Night Disc
Posts: 7,313
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
Americans humans consume more of the planet's resources than any other creature.

Very overdue for a diet.
No worries, China is getting ready to pass USA soon enough.
tagaproject6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 11:38 AM   #21
Clyde1820
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Bikes: 2012 Trek DS 8.5
Posts: 407
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
Folks giving up cars and using bikes do indeed threaten ...
Meh.

Yes, the economy changes as purchases change. Yes, the overall impact of a car-based culture on the transportation and infrastructure aspects of the economy will far exceed the overall impact of a bicycle-based culture on those things. Yes, taken as a whole, the additional benefits of a heavily bike-oriented transportation culture are huge. And I'm sure some economists, out there, have taken a stab at valuing the overall. Health, clothing, fuel, transportation infrastructure requirements, time commitments (as going the same distance on a bike can take longer [depending] as compared to a motorized vehicle) ... etc.

Can't say that anyone's "threatened" by such changes. Though many areas of industries will certainly need to accommodate such changes as buying preferences change.


I'd personally love to see a third to half of all "major corridor" streets in the average town and city torn up and retrofit with bicycle/walking-friendly alternatives. Whether that be MUPs integrated, merely widening and adding great bike lanes, or something beyond that. In many higher-growth cities such planning is already being incorporated into new street infrastructure that's being installed.
Clyde1820 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 12:17 PM   #22
TimothyH
- Soli Deo Gloria -
 
TimothyH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Northwest Georgia
Bikes: 2017 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2015 Bianchi Pista, 2002 Fuji Robaix
Posts: 7,852
Mentioned: 84 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3144 Post(s)
The guy who wrote that list lives in a fantasy world.


-Tim-
TimothyH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 12:34 PM   #23
FBOATSB 
Senior Member
 
FBOATSB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Indiana
Bikes: "electro forged"
Posts: 832
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Chapeau to the Mods! They are obviously out riding their bikes right now. :-)
FBOATSB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 12:36 PM   #24
wipekitty
vespertine member
 
wipekitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: organic valley
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 926
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Most (actually, all) of my cycling friends own and drive cars! Even without a vehicle, the cost of food, medical care, and education is rising more quickly than wages. Personally, I avoided rent inflation by getting a mortgage.

IBTL. Or P&R?
wipekitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-26-17, 12:38 PM   #25
wipekitty
vespertine member
 
wipekitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: organic valley
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 926
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
Chapeau to the Mods! They are obviously out riding their bikes right now. :-)
I'm jealous. Our weather is junk, which is why I'm too unmotivated to do much other than BF.
wipekitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:37 PM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION