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E Cargo Bike autonomy

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Old 10-22-17, 03:44 AM
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yves845
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E Cargo Bike autonomy

I'm about to move to a relatively mountainous area of France.
I don't know if the google link will work :


Absolutely hating petrol/gas, we'll have a solar and wood heating system and probably electric solar panels...
But I need to go to a supermarket sometimes !
I consider buying a Riese & Muller Load Touring HS with a 1000 Wh battery,the motor is a Bosch performance speed (350 watts)
My question is about the autonomy I can expect ?

thanks for your advices
Yves
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Old 10-22-17, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by yves845 View Post
I'm about to move to a relatively mountainous area of France.
I don't know if the google link will work :

https://www.google.fr/maps/dir/48220...!3e1!4e1?hl=fr

Absolutely hating petrol/gas, we'll have a solar and wood heating system and probably electric solar panels...
But I need to go to a supermarket sometimes !
I consider buying a Riese & Muller Load Touring HS with a 1000 Wh battery,the motor is a Bosch performance speed (350 watts)
My question is about the autonomy I can expect ?

thanks for your advices
Yves
I don't have experience with ebikes, but I would guess you'd be running out of battery-charge extremely quickly if you try to haul cargo up mountains. How far do you expect to live from a supermarket?
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Old 10-22-17, 11:24 AM
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The wife and I have gone on short tours of 6 to 8 days, 450 to 800Kms using our E-Assist bikes and only using a solar panel to charge the batteries... So yes, one can be free/autonomous of a wall plug-in...

EDIT; I can count on going 110Km per charge with me pedaling normally, and only using level 1 assist, if I turn up the E-Assist to level 4, I can/would only expect about 35Km worth of assist... I have a 422 watt Hr battery 350 watt hub motor, if I had your 1,000 watt Hr battery I probably, could go 80Km on level 4 and 250Km on level 1, of course if you are loaded down and do not have re-gen capability and the hills are bigger there you will get less, maybe even way les... Theoretically.

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Old 10-22-17, 01:26 PM
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[QUOTE=tandempower;19945101]I don't have experience with ebikes, but I would guess you'd be running out of battery-charge extremely quickly if you try to haul cargo up mountains. How far do you expect to live from a supermarket?[/QUOTEay

I expected the map would stay in imperial units and by bike...
The nearest "real" super market is 18 miles away , with +1276 ft and -2618 ft when going to it. And 19 miles +2684 ft and -1242 ft to go back home with the bike loaded.
There's a relatively big city at 28 miles

This is a big expense (about 7500 euros). and it's a 3 month waiting between the order and the delivery
the bike :
https://www.r-m.de/en-us/e-cargo/loa.../#18L03US_0205

Vialas is a very nice quiet place (2 inhabitants per square km) and it's as far as possible from our nice nuclear power stations...
Plenty of wood, and a source of water near the house !

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Old 10-22-17, 05:37 PM
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[QUOTE=yves845;19945381]
Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I don't have experience with ebikes, but I would guess you'd be running out of battery-charge extremely quickly if you try to haul cargo up mountains. How far do you expect to live from a supermarket?[/QUOTEay

I expected the map would stay in imperial units and by bike...
The nearest "real" super market is 18 miles away , with +1276 ft and -2618 ft when going to it. And 19 miles +2684 ft and -1242 ft to go back home with the bike loaded.
There's a relatively big city at 28 miles

This is a big expense (about 7500 euros). and it's a 3 month waiting between the order and the delivery
the bike :
https://www.r-m.de/en-us/e-cargo/loa.../#18L03US_0205

Vialas is a very nice quiet place (2 inhabitants per square km) and it's as far as possible from our nice nuclear power stations...
Plenty of wood, and a source of water near the house !
Growing vegetables might be possible if you can make a garden. I'm curious if people with ebike experience will say it is sufficient for carrying groceries all that way and with the elevation changes. Do some hub motors do regenerative braking now to charge the battery while going downhill? If not, I can't imagine why considering an electric motor should be able to double as a generator.
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Old 10-22-17, 06:08 PM
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[QUOTE=tandempower;19945747]
Originally Posted by yves845 View Post
Growing vegetables might be possible if you can make a garden. I'm curious if people with ebike experience will say it is sufficient for carrying groceries all that way and with the elevation changes. Do some hub motors do regenerative braking now to charge the battery while going downhill? If not, I can't imagine why considering an electric motor should be able to double as a generator.
The E-Bike the OP is looking at is not a Hub motor type, thus I suspect would NOT be a re-gen type of an assist motor... Tho, it does have a huge advantage of the motor going through the gears.

I have "managed" as much as 30%+ regenerative riding... BUT, on average it's closer to 5/10%, unless you live in a very hilly area.

I personally think, after owning an E-Bike for 4+ years that it IS, a FANTASTIC way to get around without a car, and not actually needing to be a hardcore bicycle fanatic... AS my wife has done, now riding an average of 1,200Km a year on her E-ASSIST BIKE COMPARED TO... Oh about 300Km in TOTAL for the three years she had her "other" bicycle...

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Old 10-22-17, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
I have "managed" as much as 30%+ regenerative riding... BUT, on average it's closer to 5/10%, unless you live in a very hilly area.
The elevation changes were posted in the post I responded to. It looked hilly to me, but I am used to very flat land.

I personally think, after owning an E-Bike for 4+ years that it IS, a FANTASTIC way to get around without a car, and not actually needing to be a hardcore bicycle fanatic... AS my wife has done, now riding an average of 1,200Km a year on her E-ASSIST BIKE COMPARED TO... Oh about 300Km in TOTAL for the three years she had her "other" bicycle...
I'm not a fan of motors, generally, but if I compare the option of getting a car to do grocery shopping with an ebike, the ebike is more appealing and probably less costly overall. Certainly it would be less in terms of environmental impact.
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Old 10-22-17, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
The elevation changes were posted in the post I responded to. It looked hilly to me, but I am used to very flat land.


I'm not a fan of motors, generally, but if I compare the option of getting a car to do grocery shopping with an ebike, the ebike is more appealing and probably less costly overall. Certainly it would be less in terms of environmental impact.
And... there... IS THE logical "reason" for why, if it has a motor, it is no longer a bicycle. Assist, What IS an assist.? What IS a, MOPED, or, an actual motorized "bicycle" that you do NOT NEED, I mean not really actually needing to pedal because it has a throttle.? NOW the OP asking for info is in Europe and doesn't have legal access to an E-Bike with a throttle, so... that Q is moot there, BUT here in N America, it IS wide open...

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Old 10-23-17, 01:11 AM
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[QUOTE=tandempower;19945747]
Originally Posted by yves845 View Post
Growing vegetables might be possible if you can make a garden. I'm curious if people with ebike experience will say it is sufficient for carrying groceries all that way and with the elevation changes. Do some hub motors do regenerative braking now to charge the battery while going downhill? If not, I can't imagine why considering an electric motor should be able to double as a generator.
Sure gardening will be an option, if we are courageous enough, since there's a water source.
The Bosch motor is not regenerative.

Since I stopped using regularly a car 15 years ago, my auto insurance is asking me a hefty premium for "young drivers", That alone would pay the bike in 6 years.
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Old 10-23-17, 08:54 AM
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Regeneration braking would be ideal for the OP's situation since he'd be loaded for the downhill return home and empty climbing to the market. However, a solar panel cargo lid might help. Doing a number of errands while in town (and enjoying sidewalk cafe breaks) could mean hours of charge time.
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Old 10-23-17, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Mauriceloridans View Post
Regeneration braking would be ideal for the OP's situation since he'd be loaded for the downhill return home and empty climbing to the market. However, a solar panel cargo lid might help. Doing a number of errands while in town (and enjoying sidewalk cafe breaks) could mean hours of charge time.
I wonder if anyone makes an e-assist cargo trailer with regenerative braking capacity designed for the load capacity of the trailer.
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Old 10-23-17, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I wonder if anyone makes an e-assist cargo trailer with regenerative braking capacity designed for the load capacity of the trailer.
In your dreams. The weight of the trailer can still drive the regen on the bicycle so there's not a huge need.

Then again you *could* make the trailer BE the e-assist - like with the RideKicker Anyone using the "Ridekick" e-trailer?

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Old 10-23-17, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
In your dreams. The weight of the trailer can still drive the regen on the bicycle so there's not a huge need.
I think the real reason there are not really that many re-gen capable E-Bikes or trailers is that the average re-gen most people would get is about 1 to 5% max on flat ground, 5 to 10% in hilly areas, and that is deemed not cost effective enough for most E-Bike manufacturer's to spend the money on... As most batteries are just not big/good enough for a real long range of assist and an extra 5% is deemed... a fail.? In my case a 5% re-gen would only give me 1.75Km on top of my 35Km range in level 4... Now I live in a fairly mountainous area and have managed 30%+ and that gave me a 10.5Km on top of the 35Km and that IS worth it in my book, but I also have re-gen capability whenever I want and the terrain is suited for it, not just when using the brake.

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Old 10-25-17, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by yves845 View Post
This is a big expense (about 7500 euros). and it's a 3 month waiting between the order and the delivery
the bike :
https://www.r-m.de/en-us/e-cargo/loa.../#18L03US_0205

Vialas is a very nice quiet place (2 inhabitants per square km) and it's as far as possible from our nice nuclear power stations...
Plenty of wood, and a source of water near the house !
That's certainly a big expense. The best two wheel E-cargo bike here (Netherlands) is only about 3700 euro.

I would worry about the money but in the end an extra battery is just about 500 euro's. So if you have a bike with an easy battery switch system you can carry as many batteries as you need, they're only about 2 kg each. And you might want to make sure you have instant E-assist. Some systems only kick in after a few revolutions and I don't think you want that uphill with a month's groceries.
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Old 10-25-17, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Stadjer View Post
That's certainly a big expense. The best two wheel E-cargo bike here (Netherlands) is only about 3700 euro.

I would worry about the money but in the end an extra battery is just about 500 euro's. So if you have a bike with an easy battery switch system you can carry as many batteries as you need, they're only about 2 kg each. And you might want to make sure you have instant E-assist. Some systems only kick in after a few revolutions and I don't think you want that uphill with a month's groceries.
I own a Santos Travel Master which is dutch and very reliable, every thing on this bike is made in germany (exept the pedals and the seat). Concerning the frame I suppose it's made somewhere in asia.
Tomorrow I'll try the Riese & Muller. (Joking here)
As for the price, I suppose there are a lot of "MAMILs" owning carbon bikes with ultegra Di components just for a sunday ride.
I know I could buy a moped for the tenth of the price that could do the job...
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Old 10-26-17, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by yves845 View Post
I own a Santos Travel Master which is dutch and very reliable, every thing on this bike is made in germany (exept the pedals and the seat). Concerning the frame I suppose it's made somewhere in asia.
Tomorrow I'll try the Riese & Muller. (Joking here)
As for the price, I suppose there are a lot of "MAMILs" owning carbon bikes with ultegra Di components just for a sunday ride.
I know I could buy a moped for the tenth of the price that could do the job...
My suggestion was not that you should have more Dutch bikes, I don't own any stock in the Dutch bike industry, but that you could spend less on the bike and more on batteries if this is the way you want to get around and you're worried about range and autonomy. This type of cargo bike is pretty normal here, and they come at different prices, but for 3700 you get a hand build customized one that is made to last, a high end one. If you charge the batteries with solar power I wouldn't worry about saving energy with regenerative braking or a bike a few kilo's lighter, but about enough batteries for autonomy.
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Old 10-26-17, 02:29 PM
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Today I tried this bike, at first the steering is very different from a standard bike, much more like a small car in fact. And as I never tested electric assistance it's also astonishing how easy it is on climbs.
It's a quite comfortable bike with front and rear suspensions (totally new to me also), very big tyres and large fitting options.
I had the opportunity to test various models and this R&M cargo is on my short list ; the biggest problem is that it could, optimisticaly, delivered in 4 months !
We also talked about putting solar panels on the front of the and the seller told me that it's not worth the trouble.
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Old 10-26-17, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mauriceloridans View Post
Regeneration braking would be ideal for the OP's situation since he'd be loaded for the downhill return home and empty climbing to the market. However, a solar panel cargo lid might help. Doing a number of errands while in town (and enjoying sidewalk cafe breaks) could mean hours of charge time.
I think it is just the opposite.

Twice as much climbing on the return trip than the trip to town. Although there is a big hill in the middle that might be good for recharging.

One option might be to ask the store where you're heading (or other destinations) whether there is some power you could mooch off of while shipping.

Also, one could ride with zero assist heading to town, and only use it for the major hills coming home.

Originally Posted by yves845 View Post
Today I tried this bike, at first the steering is very different from a standard bike, much more like a small car in fact. And as I never tested electric assistance it's also astonishing how easy it is on climbs.
It's a quite comfortable bike with front and rear suspensions (totally new to me also), very big tyres and large fitting options.
I had the opportunity to test various models and this R&M cargo is on my short list ; the biggest problem is that it could, optimisticaly, delivered in 4 months !
We also talked about putting solar panels on the front of the and the seller told me that it's not worth the trouble.
Any possibility of renting the bike for a few weeks? Just to get a real feel for it?

I don't use E-Assist, but I am out of town, and car-free. But, quite a bit closer to town than you. Plus, my two hills are shorter. I have been known to walk up my driveway though. Too steep, which would probably be OK, but I lose traction.

I made my cargo bike beastly heavy. And my heavy hauling trailer is even heavy. But it works when needed. However, for most of my trips carrying ordinary cargo, and < 100 pounds, I have chosen to just pull a small child trailer with my road bike, so the cargo bike/trailer doesn't get out much. My cargo bike is rear-load, and I also have found that it is more convenient to just load up the trailer since I only use the cargo bike for stuff that is too big for an ordinary bike/trailer, and the top-heavy bike isn't that fun with 100 lbs cargo.

I have an acquaintance that built a front-load cargo bike which he likes a lot, so far.

Other options are also available. I have thought a lot about the advantages of a trike for hauling cargo up hills. Our local bike co-op has built recumbent trike "tri-haulers", and now have been using E-Assist. They could make one, although shipping to Europe would be interesting. The advantage is that you can go as slow as your gearing will allow. But, perhaps using an upright trike, as I'm not convinced the power is the same for the seated position. I have more experimenting to do with that.


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Old 10-29-17, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I think it is just the opposite.

Twice as much climbing on the return trip than the trip to town. Although there is a big hill in the middle that might be good for recharging.

One option might be to ask the store where you're heading (or other destinations) whether there is some power you could mooch off of while shipping.

Also, one could ride with zero assist heading to town, and only use it for the major hills coming home.

Any possibility of renting the bike for a few weeks? Just to get a real feel for it?

I don't use E-Assist, but I am out of town, and car-free. But, quite a bit closer to town than you. Plus, my two hills are shorter. I have been known to walk up my driveway though. Too steep, which would probably be OK, but I lose traction.

I made my cargo bike beastly heavy. And my heavy hauling trailer is even heavy. But it works when needed. However, for most of my trips carrying ordinary cargo, and < 100 pounds, I have chosen to just pull a small child trailer with my road bike, so the cargo bike/trailer doesn't get out much. My cargo bike is rear-load, and I also have found that it is more convenient to just load up the trailer since I only use the cargo bike for stuff that is too big for an ordinary bike/trailer, and the top-heavy bike isn't that fun with 100 lbs cargo.

I have an acquaintance that built a front-load cargo bike which he likes a lot, so far.

Other options are also available. I have thought a lot about the advantages of a trike for hauling cargo up hills. Our local bike co-op has built recumbent trike "tri-haulers", and now have been using E-Assist. They could make one, although shipping to Europe would be interesting. The advantage is that you can go as slow as your gearing will allow. But, perhaps using an upright trike, as I'm not convinced the power is the same for the seated position. I have more experimenting to do with that.


I love your machine, it's an impressive trike !
Your Idea of finding someone in town to recharge the batteries is the most pratical and lest costly proposition.

I looked at solar panels for RVs and to get sufficient output, the surface is larger than the bike, it cost 3000 euros and it's 50 pounds of added weight. And anything foldable is providing a riculous amount of power considering the big batteries need.
Regenerating brakes will not be efficient enough.

My brother builds tadpoles, he's against the regular trike conception because of stability problems in short turns at high speed.
His latest machine is full carbon fiber and titanium, he opted for drum brakes after blowing many tires with disc brakes, and he's adding a parachute for emergency braking at high speed.
There's no motor, but his bike weighs under 30 lb.

He's lucky enough to have access to materials of aerospace grade as samples, due to his job of computerised modelling for mass production products.
Myself I'm just able to use idiot proof technology...
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Old 10-29-17, 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by yves845 View Post
I love your machine, it's an impressive trike !
Your Idea of finding someone in town to recharge the batteries is the most pratical and lest costly proposition.

I looked at solar panels for RVs and to get sufficient output, the surface is larger than the bike, it cost 3000 euros and it's 50 pounds of added weight. And anything foldable is providing a riculous amount of power considering the big batteries need.
Regenerating brakes will not be efficient enough.
Those trikes are built by the local bike co-op, not myself, although I've thought about trying to make one myself. The basic design is relatively straightforward. They do sell a few, but they're not cheap.

Center for Appropriate Transport ? 455 W 1st Ave. Eugene, OR 97401

For the winter, they've added a surfboard shaped roof onto the top of the Pedaler's Express trike to keep some of the rain off.

There is a class of solar panels with relatively high efficiency called "semi-flexible" that might be worth looking at.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SOLAR-CITY-...E/372020470647

It looks like they are about 41.3" x 21.2" (1050mmx540x2.5mm) for 100W. Probably other models available, for 2.5 Kilos. If you put 4 on the roof, you'd have 3'5" wide, and 7' long for a cost of about $600, weight of 10 kilos (plus the controller and circuits), and about 400W peak power. You can't expect to always generate at peak power, but might be able to make up some of your power needs.

Hmmm, here is a 48V, 40Ah battery pack, 12.75 Kilos, for $958. Multiply that out, and you get about 1600 Wh of power.

https://it.aliexpress.com/item/lifep...816045901.html

So, that would give you about 100w for 16 hours, or 400w for 4 hours. So the battery pack is about the same weight as your solar panel. Similar cost, and may have more energy than the solar panel generates in a day.

As we say, six of one, half a dozen of the other.
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Old 05-10-18, 09:30 AM
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Just to give some news and infos :

I finally ordered a R&M load HS with two 500 W batteries and a 350 w motor.
I Placed the order early november 2017. The bike arrived last week, early may 2018 ... they apologized explaining that E.U regulations had changed and that a braking light was compulsory.... Those germans are so serious about regulations ! it took them 6 month to find the right lighting system !
I had the opportunity to ride the cargo and it's really impressive it goes real fast, steering is extremely precise compared to other "bakfiets" I had the opportunity to try, suspensions make it really comfortable to ride even when fully loaded.

Now the PAPER thing : since it goes faster than 25 km/h, it's considered as a moped, it needs to be registered, with a licence plate, an insurance, a heavy helmet and, best of all it's forbidden to ride with it on bike lanes... it's France. As far as I know, there's still a law forbidding women to wear trousers in public somewhere in the "code civil".
As we're in France they recently "modernized" the registration process : no more waiting hours at the "prefecture", it must be done via internet and since this is really really France the program is affected by so many bugs that delays are enormous.
So I think i still have to wait 2 or three monthes to ride it "legally".
Yves
By the way in the mean time my car was destroyed at a round about (France is the country with the world record for round abouts)
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Old 05-14-18, 10:14 AM
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Khb
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I have a Stromer ST-1, which has regenerative braking. It's an older model, but works very well. With panniers front (via Thule rack) and back (Arkel, Ortlieb, Timbuk2 via a Topeak rack) I can carry a fair bit. I have a Burley cargo trailer for bigger shopping runs.

Most of the time, I don't need the trailer .... unless you are *always* going to be hauling more than you can fit in 4 panniers ... I think you might well be better off without a dedicated cargo bike.

I'd expect you should be able to find a used Stromer (fairly popular in europe) just invest in a new and large battery. Keep whatever it came with as a backup. I haven't seen a direct solar to battery (the factory recommended an inverter which seemed wasteful), but I'd think it shouldn't be too hard to find someone to fabricate one (just be careful not to overcharge ;>)
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Old 05-14-18, 10:45 AM
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Khb
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All panniers and with cargo trailer. Oddly, I seem to now be unable to post images. Here's a link that I hope works.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=14w...r23IXDAk-tTHzV
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Old 05-14-18, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Khb View Post
I have a Stromer ST-1, which has regenerative braking. It's an older model, but works very well. With panniers front (via Thule rack) and back (Arkel, Ortlieb, Timbuk2 via a Topeak rack) I can carry a fair bit. I have a Burley cargo trailer for bigger shopping runs.

Most of the time, I don't need the trailer .... unless you are *always* going to be hauling more than you can fit in 4 panniers ... I think you might well be better off without a dedicated cargo bike.

I'd expect you should be able to find a used Stromer (fairly popular in europe) just invest in a new and large battery. Keep whatever it came with as a backup. I haven't seen a direct solar to battery (the factory recommended an inverter which seemed wasteful), but I'd think it shouldn't be too hard to find someone to fabricate one (just be careful not to overcharge ;>)
My cargo bike turned out to be a bit of a beast to ride.

And, since it is not electric, it stays home except when I absolutely need it, which tends to be pulling the heavy trailer.

Everything else I either use my ordinary bike, or kid's trailer.

My next build will be a dedicated tow trike for the heavy trailer.
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Old 05-14-18, 11:50 AM
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Khb
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
My cargo bike turned out to be a bit of a beast to ride.

And, since it is not electric, it stays home except when I absolutely need it, which tends to be pulling the heavy trailer.
...
Why use a cargo bike to tow a trailer? Is the trailer itself heavy? (If so, why? )

I rather like https://burley.com/product/flatbed/ I have toyed with the idea of getting a travoy for use with my folder; but for the kind of shopping trip where the panniers don't suffice, I'm glad I went with the flatbed.
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