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6 months without a car in Detroit

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6 months without a car in Detroit

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Old 02-12-18, 12:59 PM
  #51  
Jim from Boston
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
...Suggested Tips for safe riding in Detroit as quoted above:

Stay within the Downtown areas, stay at least 25 feet from anyone who might bepacking, as well avoiding groups of 2 or more teenagers with baggy clothing andor hoodies; also avoid:
1. Teenage drivers
2. Senior drivers
3. Texting/Cellphone drivers
3. Potholes
4. Q-line rail
5. Pedestrians on the bike lane.

Sounds like the way to be "be cool" while riding in Detroit is to only ride around around the block if you live on a quiet street in a gentrified neighborhood or in a car free zone in the Downtown area.
Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I have been robbed in Boston, seen the worst sides of New York ..... but If I said I bike commuted in any of those cities everyone would understand I didn't mean the most dangerous neighborhoods.
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I perked up when I read that, and I googled murders in the (tony) Back Bay, and there were a good number of assaults, especially in the hours of darkness.

During the early morning after dawn I will ride through some reputably “bad” areas in Boston, yet I won’t ride on a darkened MUP in some “nice” ones.
I think the advice about riding through Detroit is applicable to many urban and even rural venues (see the 1969 movie, Easy Rider).
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
…The next morning,as they are overtaken on a two-lane country road by an old pickup truck, the passenger in the truck reaches for a shotgun, saying he will scare them.

As they pass Billy, the passenger fires, and Billy has a lowside crash.Wyatt rides down the road towards the pickup as it makes a u-turn. Passing in the opposite direction, the passenger fires the shotgun out the window…
or the current thread, "1 Cyclist Killed, One Injured in Tour de Palm Springs".

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Old 02-12-18, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Foldy313 View Post
Be confident. Be observant. Act like you know where you are and where you are going. And keep your emotions in check.

For example, if you are riding along and find yourself going down a street where many homes are burned out and abandoned and start to fear for your safety, don't stop and stare with your mouth hanging open. Don't point and joke with your friend about the kind of people who must be living there. Don't break into your fastest sprint without knowing where you're going. Calmly backtrack and find another route.

And if a car full of people comes along and they call you names, just keep pedaling. Don't call them names back or give them the finger. Ignore and avoid, don't escalate.

The closest call I've had in five years in Detroit was another cyclist riding up to me and baring his teeth and growling like an animal. It was so unusual the first time it took me by surprise. I just figured he was off his meds and didn't say or do anything. The second time got my hackles up, and I thought he might attack me. I told myself if he does it again, I'm going to confront him. That was a bad idea. You can't argue with crazy. Things could have gotten physical and who knows?

Fortunately, he didn't do it again, and I rode away like I should have done in the first place. And that's when I started reading up on situational awareness and safety.
As I said before perspective make a world of difference in how someone views posts like this. I have moved from places where there were far fewer suggestions for safely riding through an area. For those of us that don't have to think about those things when we ride around places where we live it sounds daunting. More than likely they are good suggestions and worth following for someone that has no other choice.

To a degree it reminds me of a suggestion posted in this forum years ago after I mentioned that I hadn't been on a city bus in 35 years. The poster wanted to assure me the experience could be enhanced by following a few simple rules. Don't make eye contact with loud passengers. Take a book and keep your face in it. Don't sit too far back in the bus. Maybe it was good advice but it simply confirmed my reasons for not riding the bus. I at least see the suggestions from a different perspective.
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Old 02-12-18, 01:22 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I think the advice about riding through Detroit is applicable to many urban and even rural venues (see the 1969 movie, Easy Rider).
Presumably a cool rider should see the movie Night of the Living Dead for advice about how to avoid other fictional evil doers.
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Old 02-12-18, 01:32 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I think the advice about riding through Detroit is applicable to many urban and even rural venues (see the 1969 movie, Easy Rider)...
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Presumably a cool rider should see the movie Night of the Living Dead for advice about how to avoid other fictional evil doers.
Full quote was:
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I think the advice about riding through Detroit is applicable to many urban and even rural venues [emphasis added] (see the 1969 movie, Easy Rider). or the current [real] thread, "1 Cyclist Killed, One Injured in Tour de Palm Springs".
FWIW.

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Old 02-12-18, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
Full quote was:FWIW.
How would/could any of the "safety" advice you previously quoted have helped the victims of the tragedy at the Tour de Palm Springs? Seems to be a reference just as irrelevant and off topic as referencing fictional movie scenes.

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Old 02-12-18, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Foldy313 View Post
Be confident. Be observant. Act like you know where you are and where you are going. And keep your emotions in check.

For example, if you are riding along and find yourself going down a street where many homes are burned out and abandoned and start to fear for your safety, don't stop and stare with your mouth hanging open. Don't point and joke with your friend about the kind of people who must be living there. Don't break into your fastest sprint without knowing where you're going. Calmly backtrack and find another route.

And if a car full of people comes along and they call you names, just keep pedaling. Don't call them names back or give them the finger. Ignore and avoid, don't escalate.

The closest call I've had in five years in Detroit was another cyclist riding up to me and baring his teeth and growling like an animal. It was so unusual the first time it took me by surprise. I just figured he was off his meds and didn't say or do anything. The second time got my hackles up, and I thought he might attack me. I told myself if he does it again, I'm going to confront him. That was a bad idea. You can't argue with crazy. Things could have gotten physical and who knows?

Fortunately, he didn't do it again, and I rode away like I should have done in the first place. And that's when I started reading up on situational awareness and safety.
I generally agree. For me it all boils down to being a deaf man with the goal of making time on his regular route home. People that try to flag me down or ask a question generally see my hind quarters before getting the first word out - like

hey can you spare some hurumpf...
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Old 02-12-18, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
... Suggested Tips for safe riding in Detroit as quoted above:
Stay within the Downtown areas, stay at least 25 feet from anyone who might be packing, as well avoiding groups of 2 or more teenagers with baggy clothing and or hoodies; also avoid:
1. Teenage drivers
2. Senior drivers
3. Texting/Cellphone drivers
3. Potholes
4. Q-line rail
5. Pedestrians on the bike lane.

Sounds like the way to be "be cool" while riding
in Detroit is to only ride around around the block if you live on a quiet street in a gentrified neighborhood or in a car free zone in the Downtown area.
None of that was posted by the 'be cool' guy.
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Old 02-12-18, 04:01 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
For those of us that don't have to think about those things when we ride around places where we live it sounds daunting. More than likely they are good suggestions and worth following for someone that has no other choice.
There's always a choice. People who choose to live in Detroit figure out how to do it safely, and essentially do what you are doing - avoid the worst areas. You're just more extreme in your avoidance
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Old 02-12-18, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
I generally agree. For me it all boils down to being a deaf man with the goal of making time on his regular route home. People that try to flag me down or ask a question generally see my hind quarters before getting the first word out - like

hey can you spare some hurumpf...
That left a picture in my head. Made me smile.
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Old 02-12-18, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
None of that was posted by the 'be cool' guy.
So what, who said it was?? It was posted by someone else who thought it was useful advice for those trying to be cool while riding in Detroit and elsewhere.
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Old 02-12-18, 11:28 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
So what, who said it was?? It was posted by someone else who thought it was useful advice for those trying to be cool while riding in Detroit and elsewhere.
How does it compare to your experience in Burlington?
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Old 02-13-18, 07:58 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
How does it compare to your experience in Burlington?
If "it" is Detroit, no resemblance.

If "it" is advice on cycling coolness with tips such as to avoid at least half of the drivers on the road, my experience tells me that "it" is equally useless advice for Burlington and everywhere else too.

If "it" is comparing my experience to fictional movie scenes from Easy Rider, no resemblance.
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Old 02-13-18, 09:32 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
If "it" is Detroit, no resemblance.

If "it" is advice on cycling coolness with tips such as to avoid at least half of the drivers on the road, my experience tells me that "it" is equally useless advice for Burlington and everywhere else too.

If "it" is comparing my experience to fictional movie scenes from Easy Rider, no resemblance.
No need for situational awareness where you bike?
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Old 02-13-18, 11:37 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
If "it" is comparing my experience to fictional movie scenes from Easy Rider, no resemblance.
Strange, you strike me as the type of person who would not mind if six turned out to be nine.
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Old 02-13-18, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
No need for situational awareness where you bike?
No need to be all OCD about it. YMMV.
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Old 02-13-18, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
I think the advice about riding through Detroit is applicable to many urban and even rural venues [emphasis added] (see the 1969 movie, Easy Rider), or the current [real] thread, "1 Cyclist Killed, One Injured in Tour de Palm Springs".
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
How does it compare to your experience in Burlington?
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
If"it" is Detroit, no resemblance.

If "it" is advice on cycling coolness with tips such as to avoid at least half of the drivers on the road, my experience tells me that"it" is equally useless advice for Burlington and everywhere else too.

If "it" is comparing my experience to fictional movie scenes from Easy Rider, no resemblance.
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
No need for situational awareness where you bike?
I like that term, “situational awareness.” A couple of recent threads have been written about how to sustain situational awareness; whether in devastated Detroit, the rural Deep South, the Palm Springs desert, or wherever. For my own safety, I have written,
Originally Posted by Jim from Boston View Post
...Over the past few months I have come to realize that my safety aphorisms, collected over the years by personal or vicarious experience,are my way of actively aligning the stars in my favor, to anticipate those unseen and otherwise unanticipated dangers.

FWIW, for my own information at least, my other aphorisms beside those above are:…
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
No need to be all OCD about it. YMMV.

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Old 02-14-18, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
I generally agree. For me it all boils down to being a deaf man with the goal of making time on his regular route home.

hey can you spare some hurumpf...
I've lost much of the hearing in my left ear so half the time I can't hear what they're saying anyway.
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Old 02-14-18, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post

To a degree it reminds me of a suggestion posted in this forum years ago after I mentioned that I hadn't been on a city bus in 35 years. The poster wanted to assure me the experience could be enhanced by following a few simple rules. Don't make eye contact with loud passengers. Take a book and keep your face in it. Don't sit too far back in the bus. Maybe it was good advice but it simply confirmed my reasons for not riding the bus. I at least see the suggestions from a different perspective.
I take Detroit's buses too when it's too cold or icy to ride. I've never had a problem. I don't go out of my way to avoid attention. But I don't go out of my way to attract attention. The most notable violence on buses is directed at the drivers because people get upset about the bus being late or not showing up. And drivers are going to be the ones who call for help if there is a problem. So I always say hi to them when I get on and thank them when I get off.
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Old 02-14-18, 11:27 AM
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Someone who Really wants to do some work, and not just speculate,, like I am about to do ...


But yeah, I have Never heard of crime on a U.S. city bus. I am sure there has been Some ... just the odds, too many people on too many buses for two many decades ... but I cannot recall a story about someone being robbed or randomly assaulted on a bus.

The reason to be aware of what's going on is mostly to not be pestered by people begging or people desperate for attention who want to tell you tinfoil-hat stories about their lives and why they aren't the Governor of three states any more ... that kind of thing. I usually sat at the back and near the rear door ... so I guess I was one of the "undesirables" all you weak folk are afraid to meet ... . hey, nice to meet you.

New York subways? Yes, I have heard of people being robbed on subways. Buses? I cannot recall seeing that.

People who are afraid to ride buses are just afraid. People on buses are just people.

It is interesting to see how many people here who seem to respect what I write, would probably call the cops on my if they met me in person.

But ... hey, no , don't challenge your own prejudices, Never do that.


Post Script: This is sort of comical by contrast. A few years ago I did a cross-country charity ride where we did some rough camping. One urban dude from a cool climate got totally freaked out when one of the more experienced campers said stuff like, "Shake out your shoes in case scorpions crawl in over night, and if a snake falls asleep near you for body heat, don't freak, just get up slowly."

Here was a guy who had probably ridden hundreds of trains and subways and had survived in cities all over the world but he was freaked out in the desert.

The tips listed above for dealing with urban environments are no more scary to me than the tips about sleeping in the desert.

People can fear whatever they want. They can also Not fear. I tend more to change myself rather than complaining pointlessly about the world I cannot change.
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Old 02-14-18, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
but I cannot recall a story about someone being robbed or randomly assaulted on a bus.
It's many, many times safer than driving, but people are blind to automobile carnage.
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Old 02-14-18, 12:39 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
It is interesting to see how many people here who seem to respect what I write, would probably call the cops on my if they met me in person.
How many people is that? More than the straw men (arguments/stereotypes) you continually dredge up to castigate on BF?

Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
I tend more to change myself rather than complaining pointlessly about the world I cannot change.
OK, if you say so.
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Old 02-14-18, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Someone who Really wants to do some work, and not just speculate,, like I am about to do ...


But yeah, I have Never heard of crime on a U.S. city bus. I am sure there has been Some ... just the odds, too many people on too many buses for two many decades ... but I cannot recall a story about someone being robbed or randomly assaulted on a bus.

It is interesting to see how many people here who seem to respect what I write, would probably call the cops on my if they met me in person.

But ... hey, no , don't challenge your own prejudices, Never do that.
My sister drove a city bus for close to 20 years before retiring. And maybe your post should be a challenge to some prejudices. But like it has often been said your results may be different. I was once on a bus where a girl went 5150 after sleeping off some drug she had taken. When she woke up she pulled a big knife out of her purse and basically held the back quarter of the bus hostage because they couldn't get off even if the bus had pulled over. The driver must have notified base because the cops came on the bus at the next stop and removed her.

So yes you can ignore loud people and you can sit in the back of the bus and yes some people might look at you like you were one of the bad guys. Or someone could simply not choose to take the bus and avoid all of that advice in the first place. But things do bother some people and make the effort to learn how to ride without hassle not worth the effort. SO after a minor bit of study to see if my sister's stories held any water I submit for your consideration the following. And so far I have not experienced any problems on light rail. For your entertainment in a spirit of lightheartedness?

https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/l...179373631.html
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Old 02-14-18, 03:13 PM
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I recall the old guy who got beat on a bus ... I recall that the attacker said the old guy made a pass at hm, tried to touch while he slept .....

As for this "By the end of October, there had been 1114 serious crimes on MTA buses and trains, the agency said, up from 963 during the same period in 2011. There were 291 robberies, up from 205 last year, and 185 assaults, the highest in at least five years and 22 more than during the same period in 2011."

How many passengers ands how many miles? Not trying to prove a point because I don't know but I could also ask about car-jacking stats in the same region .... car theft, death due to accidents/drunk drivers/ pedestrian deaths road rage incidents by car.

Assaults might or might not be two-sided .... robberies are pretty straightforward but if there are 200 or 300 in a year means nothing ... question is, how doe the rate per rider/mile compare? if buses are more dangerous that walking ....

The other thing is ... which routes? if I am riding the bus through Compton in my red or blue bandana it's not the same as if I am riding the bust down Hollywood boulevard .... How does the crime on the bus route compare to crime rates in that specific region?

This is where anecdotes and statistics need to be put into context to tell their story.

There is a big difference in my mind between people who are afraid and people who are smart. I might avoid certain neighborhoods in certain cities and at the same time be willing to walk or ride a bus anywhere else in those same cities ... but people who have prejudices based on fear and hatred and ignorance ... well, there are those people.

Think about this: your sister rode a city bus All Day Every Day for a couple decades ... was she ever robbed?
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Old 02-14-18, 04:14 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post

Think about this: your sister rode a city bus All Day Every Day for a couple decades ... was she ever robbed?
You didn't ask me about being assaulted or how many passengers were assaulted. The answer to both is yes and more than one. But that doesn't make anyone that doesn't want to deal with some of those consideration afraid. It simply means they may choose not to deal with the chances because it isn't worth it to them.

That wasn't the point however, the point was that just like the subway people get assaulted on the bus. For good or bad it is easier to trust friends and family in your own car than people you don't know anything about in a public form of transportation. People may just be people but for some reason the more people that get together on one spot, it seems like, the more problems happen per capita. http://victimsofcrime.org/docs/defau...l.pdf?sfvrsn=2 But that is just how I see it and the position that interests me. Others may not care and that is fine as well.

My life experiences help to form my opinions as others form theirs from their experiences.

Just as an aside, my sister doesn't use the bus today even though she retired as a bus driver. He reason, it doesn't meet her scheduled appointments.
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Old 02-14-18, 04:49 PM
  #75  
tandempower
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
People may just be people but for some reason the more people that get together on one spot, it seems like, the more problems happen per capita.
I think there is some truth in this, though I think there are other factors than just density. Still, there is a very pleasant 'sweet spot' that happens when an area is dense enough to promote comfortable walking/biking/transit without growing so dense that all the trees and natural ecology get squeezed out by development. When the area is dominated by cars and driving, that pleasantness is lost and people have to drive to some destination to find it temporarily until they have to leave and drive somewhere else, assuming it is still there as a destination to drive to.
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