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Can users break share bikes/scooters faster than they can fix them?

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Can users break share bikes/scooters faster than they can fix them?

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Old 09-12-18, 08:47 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post

I am very glad many public tool-stations have been set up for people to fix their own bikes, and although I usually fix my own bikes with my own tools at home, I have been out once where I needed to adjust saddle-height and I was able to use the hex wrench on one of those tool stations instead of riding back home and it was a great convenience and time-saver.

Fixing your own bicycle is fine. You can do what you want with your own bicycle. And sure, those public tool stations can be useful.


It's a whole different story when there's the potential to put all sorts of other people in danger by doing a shoddy repair job on a piece of equipment owned by a business.


Do you want someone's accident traced back to you? Do you want to be responsible for paying for all their medical bills?
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Old 09-13-18, 05:20 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Fixing your own bicycle is fine. You can do what you want with your own bicycle. And sure, those public tool stations can be useful.


It's a whole different story when there's the potential to put all sorts of other people in danger by doing a shoddy repair job on a piece of equipment owned by a business.


Do you want someone's accident traced back to you? Do you want to be responsible for paying for all their medical bills?
No, of course not. But there is the possibility that you can do something just as well as any other mechanic. I don't think my tires, brakes, chain, gears, etc. are any more 'shoddy' than any mechanic working at a bike shop. In fact, it has always baffled me whenever I've inquired about working at a bike shop only to be told I have to go to mechanic school first. If you know what you're doing and you know the difference between shoddy work and comprehensive work, what does it matter whether you're 'professional' or 'amateur?'
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Old 09-13-18, 06:18 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
But there is the possibility that you can do something just as well as any other mechanic.
I don't think Machka said it was impossible to get a good repair with unskilled labor. The point of discussion is not the successful outcomes but the distinctly possible poor outcomes. How about addressing her point more directly instead of focusing on other scenarios that work in your favor?
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Old 09-14-18, 05:32 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
I don't think Machka said it was impossible to get a good repair with unskilled labor. The point of discussion is not the successful outcomes but the distinctly possible poor outcomes. How about addressing her point more directly instead of focusing on other scenarios that work in your favor?
I already did in an earlier post. I suggested a two-tier service/inspection process where a scooter/bicycle that has received service is tagged electronically so that the first post-service user has to be one that has registered as an inspector. That would avoid the possibility of a unit that was improperly serviced from resulting in an injury for a user who is not capable of properly inspecting/testing the unit.

So, for example, you would check your app for available scooters, and you would see one that is designated as an inspector/tester unit. Then, you could rent that unit at a lower price and it would be your responsibility to perform a full mechanical check. Then, when you finish with it and it has passed inspection, any other user can rent it at the regular price.
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Old 09-15-18, 06:52 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I already did in an earlier post. I suggested a two-tier service/inspection process where a scooter/bicycle that has received service is tagged electronically so that the first post-service user has to be one that has registered as an inspector. That would avoid the possibility of a unit that was improperly serviced from resulting in an injury for a user who is not capable of properly inspecting/testing the unit.

So, for example, you would check your app for available scooters, and you would see one that is designated as an inspector/tester unit. Then, you could rent that unit at a lower price and it would be your responsibility to perform a full mechanical check. Then, when you finish with it and it has passed inspection, any other user can rent it at the regular price.
And you then become liable for that person's safety. High cost to pay for a discount on a rental.
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Old 09-15-18, 07:25 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
And you then become liable for that person's safety. High cost to pay for a discount on a rental.
Particularly so when all this bizarre scheming is intended for TP-type DIY, YouTube trained mechanics to take their chances in order to save a few pennies on a $1/hour rental fee.
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Old 09-15-18, 07:57 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
And you then become liable for that person's safety. High cost to pay for a discount on a rental.
As I said before, threats of lawsuits are used as political weapons. Are rental car employees liable for the safety of people who rent the cars? Are amusement park workers liable for the safety of park guests who ride the rides? Are airline pilots, mechanics, inspectors, etc. liable for plane crashes? Are factory workers, engineers, dealer salespeople, etc. liable for mechanical failures in cars they build, maintain, and sell? What about for environmental damage they cause and for the large distances people need to drive to get to work in sprawling areas that develop where everyone drives? If people are held liable for all these things, it exerts tremendous political pressure on them, doesn't it? Now do you see how lawsuits and threats of lawsuits are used as political weaponry?
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Old 09-15-18, 08:47 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
As I said before, threats of lawsuits are used as political weapons. Are rental car employees liable for the safety of people who rent the cars? Are amusement park workers liable for the safety of park guests who ride the rides? Are airline pilots, mechanics, inspectors, etc. liable for plane crashes? Are factory workers, engineers, dealer salespeople, etc. liable for mechanical failures in cars they build, maintain, and sell? What about for environmental damage they cause and for the large distances people need to drive to get to work in sprawling areas that develop where everyone drives? If people are held liable for all these things, it exerts tremendous political pressure on them, doesn't it? Now do you see how lawsuits and threats of lawsuits are used as political weaponry?
No, it is only another alternate reality, fantasy construct emanating from your unique critical thinking process.

The employers of the allegedly negligent employees are held financially responsible for their job related actions, to include venture capital financed money burning ride sharing operations that would be irresponsible enough to incorporate such a bizarre scheme for assuring the safety of a product that shares the road with other operators.
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Old 09-15-18, 08:54 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
As I said before, threats of lawsuits are used as political weapons. Are rental car employees liable for the safety of people who rent the cars? Are amusement park workers liable for the safety of park guests who ride the rides? Are airline pilots, mechanics, inspectors, etc. liable for plane crashes? Are factory workers, engineers, dealer salespeople, etc. liable for mechanical failures in cars they build, maintain, and sell?

Sometimes.

But that's what insurance is for.

You're just proving my point that if people are going to fix scooters, they need to be officially employed and covered by the organisation's insurance.

Thank you ... I'm glad you've come around and agree that the idea of having random people fix scooters isn't a good idea.
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Old 09-15-18, 08:56 AM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post

I am very glad many public tool-stations have been set up for people to fix their own bikes, and although I usually fix my own bikes with my own tools at home, I have been out once where I needed to adjust saddle-height and I was able to use the hex wrench on one of those tool stations instead of riding back home and it was a great convenience and time-saver.
I wouldn't rely on public tool-stations since they are non-existent where I ride....Every cyclist should carry some basic tools with them which allows them to do basic repairs and adjustments while on the road, bike tools don't take up much space and are easy to carry...When I was car-free and relied 100% on my bikes for transportation I made sure to plan for worst case scenario and I was always a over-prepared...I am now car-light but I still carry the same basic tools with me whenever I ride my bikes.
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Old 09-15-18, 08:58 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
No, it is only another alternate reality, fantasy construct emanating from your unique critical thinking process.

The employers of the allegedly negligent employees are held financially responsible for their job related actions, to include venture capital financed money burning ride sharing operations that would be irresponsible enough to incorporate such a bizarre scheme for assuring the safety of a product that shares the road with other operators.
Every time you call something 'bizarre,' that is a subjective assessment. Anything can be labelled 'bizarre' relative to something else. It's a meaningless concept outside the minds of people who interpret reality in a naively aesthetic way, which is bizarre if you think about it.
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Old 09-15-18, 08:59 AM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
Sometimes.

But that's what insurance is for.

You're just proving my point that if people are going to fix scooters, they need to be officially employed and covered by the organisation's insurance.

Thank you ... I'm glad you've come around and agree that the idea of having random people fix scooters isn't a good idea.
This is your political view. It is not everyone's.
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Old 09-15-18, 09:00 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I wouldn't rely on public tool-stations since they are non-existent where I ride....Every cyclist should carry some basic tools with them which allows them to do basic repairs and adjustments while on the road, bike tools don't take up much space and are easy to carry...When I was car-free and relied 100% on my bikes for transportation I made sure to plan for worst case scenario and I was always a over-prepared...I am now car-light but I still carry the same basic tools with me whenever I ride my bikes.
Tools are heavy and cumbersome to carry around. I am glad public tool stations are a thing. DIY is a wonderful saver of time and money.
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Old 09-15-18, 09:01 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
But there is the possibility that you can do something just as well as any other mechanic. '
There is also a possibility than an unskilled worker may screw up and then you end up flying over the handlebars, what then ??
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Old 09-15-18, 09:02 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
There is also a possibility than an unskilled worker may screw up and then you end up flying over the handlebars, what then ??
You didn't read through all the posts in the thread. That has already been asked and answered. The solution is to tag a unit that has been serviced for an inspector/tester before releasing it for general use.
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Old 09-15-18, 09:09 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Tools are heavy and cumbersome to carry around.
No they're not...How much space does a small multi tool, a spoke wrench, a small pair of vice grips, a small 15mm wrench, a mini pump, spare tube, flat repair kit, tire levers, few zip-ties, few chain links take ??...All this stuff can be fitted in a small pouch or box...A properly assembled and maintained bike shouldn't have any catastrophic component failures which requires special cumbersome tools to repair.
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Old 09-15-18, 09:14 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
This is your political view. It is not everyone's.
You misspelled the word "practical". It is my "practical" view, and also, from my experience, the common view in places like Australia, Canada, and likely a number of other places.
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Old 09-15-18, 09:16 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
No they're not...How much space does a small multi tool, a spoke wrench, a small pair of vice grips, a small 15mm wrench, a mini pump, spare tube, flat repair kit, tire levers, few zip-ties, few chain links take ??...All this stuff can be fitted in a small pouch or box...A properly assembled and maintained bike shouldn't have any catastrophic component failures which requires special cumbersome tools to repair.
I suppose I could carry around a multitool, but I have toured and the more I keep adding specialized tools and spare parts, the more my rig weighed. It got to the point where I was carrying a chain whip and adjustable wrench to hold the lock nut and the plastic crate on my luggage rack cracked from the weight.

Public tool stations are wonderful because you don't need them that often so instead of everyone carrying around all the tools they need for occasional use, people can just make it to a nearby public tool station and not have to carry all that weight around. Now if only they had little vending machines with inner tubes, brake cables, chains, spokes, ball bearings, grease, pedals, etc. . . .
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Old 09-15-18, 09:18 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
You misspelled the word "practical". It is my "practical" view, and also, from my experience, the common view in places like Australia, Canada, and likely a number of other places.
Well, you may just consider it 'practical' and it may be 'common,' but that doesn't make it apolitical. Turning everything into an excuse to charge insurance fees and create specialized jobs is economic politics, whether you want to admit it or not.
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Old 09-15-18, 09:30 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post

Public tool stations are wonderful because you don't need them that often so instead of everyone carrying around all the tools they need for occasional use, people can just make it to a nearby public tool station and not have to carry all that weight around.
They're wonderful only if you live in a big dense city, but the problem is that they're non-existent in the suburbs and rural areas. I can guarantee you 100% that if live in the suburbs or if you're touring in a rural area you're not going to find public tool stations, so it's better to take responsibility and become self sufficient even if it means carrying a little extra weight.
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Old 09-15-18, 09:57 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
They're wonderful only if you live in a big dense city, but the problem is that they're non-existent in the suburbs and rural areas. I can guarantee you 100% that if live in the suburbs or if you're touring in a rural area you're not going to find public tool stations, so it's better to take responsibility and become self sufficient even if it means carrying a little extra weight.
It's a bit ironic that you toss in the term, 'self-sufficiency' while talking about public tool stations that help people be more self-sufficient by DIYing their own bike service without going back home.

Carrying tools is of course advisable where there are not public tool stations, but wouldn't it be wonderful if public tool stations were as common in suburbs and rural areas as filling stations, air/water/vacuums, soda vending machines, and that sort of thing?
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Old 09-15-18, 01:51 PM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I suppose I could carry around a multitool, but I have toured and the more I keep adding specialized tools and spare parts, the more my rig weighed. It got to the point where I was carrying a chain whip and adjustable wrench to hold the lock nut and the plastic crate on my luggage rack cracked from the weight.
. .
You forgot the duct tape.
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Old 09-15-18, 02:29 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
And you then become liable for that person's safety. High cost to pay for a discount on a rental.
I guess Florida doesn’t have any liability laws for Airlines, inspectors and maintenance people. All the other states have liability laws dealing with rental agencies. Including repair and maintenance. At least most civilized states have laws on such things. Who knew an inspector could sign off on a repair and not be held accountable. Why bother inspecting if no one cares? Ever feel like you are talking to a alien that doesn’t understand English?

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Old 09-15-18, 03:13 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It's a bit ironic that you toss in the term, 'self-sufficiency' while talking about public tool stations that help people be more self-sufficient by DIYing their own bike service without going back home.

Carrying tools is of course advisable where there are not public tool stations, but wouldn't it be wonderful if public tool stations were as common in suburbs and rural areas as filling stations, air/water/vacuums, soda vending machines, and that sort of thing?
Wouldn't it be wonderful if there were free beer stations located wherever a bicycle rider might work up a thirst in suburbs and rural areas and be in need of a cold refresher? That way cyclists could be more self sufficient in that they would no longer be burdened with the weight of a cooler and bottles and cans to return for deposit. Even better if the public beverage station (also paid for by "the public", no doubt) would serve free hot pizza too; it's a bear carrying a wallet and money to have to buy food along the way and who would want to carry a hot pizza while traveling?
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Old 09-15-18, 05:31 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Particularly so when all this bizarre scheming is intended for TP-type DIY, YouTube trained mechanics to take their chances in order to save a few pennies on a $1/hour rental fee.
...the electric share bikes here in Sacramento are a venture of Uber. It's difficult for me to believe that Uber is interested in anything other than profitability.
At the bike co-op 5 or 6 years back, we participated in one kid's Eagle Scout project, which was to set up three of those public repair stations with tools along the American River Bike Trail.

In the discussion on providing funding, I expressed my reservations about how long the tools would stick around. (We ended up paying for one station, which was about $1800 total with stand and tools.)

The three stands are still there today, but all the tools quickly vanished, stolen by someone with a "universal key" (cable cutter). It didn't take a genius to figure out that this would be the logical result of putting a bunch of bike tools out along the river, cabled or not. Yet I was the only person in that particular meeting to express this concern. In fact, I caught **** about being a Debbie Downer.

It's one of a series of instances that gradually led me to believe I was wasting my time there. It's one thing to dream about living in a perfect world, and it's quite another to find one to live in.
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