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GM to make e-bikes

Old 11-11-18, 10:52 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post


So my guess is you aren’t interested in a GM produced or sold Ebike? I bet you are supposed to bring it to a dealership for servicing to keep up the warranty?
GM was lackadaisical, maybe even had a bogus warranty system, 20+ years ago, but today they are even further behind... There are now car companies/makes out there that will pick up the car, fix it/maintain it for 5 years and everything is covered... I suspect GM will go broke again … JMO as to GM and their E-Bike, Ha, Ha, that is funny...
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Old 11-12-18, 09:16 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
but if they're not really serious about reducing overall driving per capita, then how can that have a positive impact on congestion and sprawl?
That's not their role in society. A corporation's role is to make money and if the management or any employees actually try to act ethically or altruistically and it hurts the bottom line, they will be fired and/or sued. Proponents will say corporations contribute to the common good by providing employment and products we want (which is a good thing) but there is no mechanism for any internal checks on any spinoff harm they might do. Ergo, it is up to the rest of us to externally regulate them with laws, boycotts, public shaming etc. to ensure the damage they do in pursuit of profit is limited.
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Old 11-12-18, 09:45 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
just look st the stock reports. If GM sales fall off Toyota sales pick up. Holes created by a falling off of US manufacturers is picked up by foreign companies. The markets in other countries far exceed the markets here. We have about 3.3 million people to sell to. China and India have close to 3 billion combined.

I don't think it's just the foreignness factor that makes companies want to maximize sales in certain markets without concern for consequences, such as congestion and sprawl. Everyone has their own vision of how to live well away from the bustle/noise/fumes/greasy-grime etc. of motor vehicles. People farm out their maintenance to mechanics, tire-changes and battery-replacement to roadside assistants, oil-changes to speedy-lube places, etc. No one wants to do that work themselves, just like they don't want to deep fry their own french fries and chicken, but people are desperate for jobs and money so they do it for them. Likewise, people don't want to live in high-traffic areas, so that drives up the value of housing in relatively peaceful neighborhoods, suburban or otherwise. Pleasant cities in Europe and elsewhere with less automotive traffic are also more sought-after and property costs a lot there as well. The overall economic message it sends is to build as many cars as possible and jam-pack them into areas you don't want to be in, so that you can afford to live in other areas where you do want to be. It's not a responsible business ethic.

Public opinion is not just what advocates say it is. Public opinion is how people vote with their wallets. Besides since when is a minimalist interested in public opinion?
They use marketing and lobbying strategies to dismantle actual and/or potential resistance to the business activities that make them money at others' expense.
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Old 11-12-18, 09:47 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
That's not their role in society. A corporation's role is to make money and if the management or any employees actually try to act ethically or altruistically and it hurts the bottom line, they will be fired and/or sued. Proponents will say corporations contribute to the common good by providing employment and products we want (which is a good thing) but there is no mechanism for any internal checks on any spinoff harm they might do. Ergo, it is up to the rest of us to externally regulate them with laws, boycotts, public shaming etc. to ensure the damage they do in pursuit of profit is limited.
Then they should stick to their role and stop manipulating culture to market their products and stop lobbying government to manipulate regulations in their favor.
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Old 11-12-18, 09:56 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Then they should stick to their role and stop manipulating culture to market their products and stop lobbying government to manipulate regulations in their favor.
No, we have to look after that as they can't police themselves.
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Old 11-12-18, 10:02 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
That's not their role in society. A corporation's role is to make money and if the management or any employees actually try to act ethically or altruistically and it hurts the bottom line, they will be fired and/or sued.
That may at times be true in practice, but it does not accurately describe the corporate role in theory. It is true to corporate behavior is never theoretically altruistic, however it is intended to be ethical as the corporate institution should function in furtherance of its own long term self interests. Toward that end socially beneficial conduct occurs not due to altruism but in recognition of the reality that the long term self interests on the corporate institution rest in part with the long term self interests of the society in which it functions. Ethical behavior is essential to the self interests of the society and thus, in theory, to the corporate actor as well.

The problems we see in corporate behavior are not a function of the theoretical role of the corporation in society, they are a function of avarice in man preventing the corporation from fulfilling its intended role.
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Old 11-12-18, 10:47 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
No, we have to look after that as they can't police themselves.
Maybe, but then they will use their money to pay other people like us to police them in a way that actually lets them abuse the system to get more money to afford more abuse; and they'll claim it's not their fault by blaming the police they pay to look the other way.
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Old 11-12-18, 11:14 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Everybody wants a piece of the action. GM should stick to what they do best.
Yeah, the Denali! Great bike.
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Old 11-12-18, 01:07 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
The problems we see in corporate behavior are not a function of the theoretical role of the corporation in society, they are a function of avarice in man preventing the corporation from fulfilling its intended role.
The problem is that corporations themselves have no means or motivation to stop that avarice from taking over, and instead have motivation and means to enable it.
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Old 11-12-18, 01:49 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
The problem is that corporations themselves have no means or motivation to stop that avarice from taking over, and instead have motivation and means to enable it.
this is one of those times I have to agree. They are doing what they were designed to do. When miners discover gold they will follow the vein till the gold runs out. As long as most people continue to purchase a product someone will provide that product.
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Old 11-13-18, 06:21 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post


this is one of those times I have to agree. They are doing what they were designed to do. When miners discover gold they will follow the vein till the gold runs out. As long as most people continue to purchase a product someone will provide that product.
And if they see that some people are trying to lobby government to protect the gold from total exploitation, they'll buy the government to keep themselves in business. Buying government is just a matter of supply and demand, right?
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Old 11-13-18, 07:29 AM
  #87  
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'Smell that? That smell hanging over the whole thread? I love the smell of P&R in the morning ... smells like ... futility.'
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Old 11-13-18, 08:16 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
'Smell that? That smell hanging over the whole thread? I love the smell of P&R in the morning ... smells like ... futility.'
Personally, I think a thread on whether GM is sincere in wanting to promote e-bikes and ease downtown traffic congestion, or are just playing us, is completely relevant to LCF, but if you disagree, start a thread on a topic you think is more appropriate.
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Old 11-13-18, 10:07 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Personally, I think a thread on whether GM is sincere in wanting to promote e-bikes and ease downtown traffic congestion, or are just playing us, is completely relevant to LCF, but if you disagree, start a thread on a topic you think is more appropriate.
I've expressed my view about this thread, as I am entitled to do, and tried to do so in a light-hearted manner. I am not obligated to do anything further.
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Old 11-13-18, 10:59 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
'Smell that? That smell hanging over the whole thread? I love the smell of P&R in the morning ... smells like ... futility.'
That smell is all over numerous threads and alleged "LCF discussions" on this list and has been for quite awhile.
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Old 11-13-18, 03:35 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
I've expressed my view about this thread, as I am entitled to do, and tried to do so in a light-hearted manner. I am not obligated to do anything further.
Of course you are under no obligation, but I seem to recall we have had this discussion before, about how a few people here repeatedly harp on how the threads in the forum are somehow not right for the forum, and there is an easy fix.
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
That smell is all over numerous threads and alleged "LCF discussions" on this list and has been for quite awhile.
So...?
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Old 11-13-18, 05:41 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Of course you are under no obligation, but I seem to recall we have had this discussion before, about how a few people here repeatedly harp on how the threads in the forum are somehow not right for the forum, and there is an easy fix.So...?
The real reason it's relevant is because these corporations have the power to steer transportation culture to some degree. When automakers like GM and Ford start buying into scooter/bike shares, etc. claiming that they want to be part of a changing transportation landscape, we're supposed to assume that they're not positioning themselves in new markets in a way that obstructs them to steer people toward car/truck purchases instead of or in addition to the new car-free mobility options.

I wonder if they will be barred at some point from getting into the alternative-transportation business because of conflict of interest. Basically these scooter/bike share buy-ins are like mergers between different kinds of media outlets, etc., which are scrutinized pretty closely. For some reason it doesn't seem like automakers get the same critical attention that media does, maybe because people are still getting used to the idea of 'new transportation' the way they had to get used to the idea of 'new media' when digital recording, IT, and internet were emerging.

Last edited by tandempower; 11-13-18 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 11-14-18, 02:36 PM
  #93  
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Smokescreen...

Forget History? GM was among the corporations responsible
for destroying rail based public transportation,

Forcing people into buses they made, or private cars,
to be stuck behind those buses..
With the carbon particulate by products of diesel combustion..
blown back at you.

Now PR has them re-positioning themselves as multi modal proponents,
with a product to sell?

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Old 11-14-18, 05:17 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Forget History? GM was among the corporations responsible
for destroying rail based public transportation,

Forcing people into buses they made, or private cars,
to be stuck behind those buses..
With the carbon particulate by products of diesel combustion..
blown back at you.

Now PR has them re-positioning themselves as multi modal proponents,
with a product to sell?
It would be interesting to know what the ultimate intent behind the elimination of the streetcars and rails was. Maybe it was to subvert public transportation and force everyone into personal vehicle ownership, but maybe they really thought that it would be more efficient to use buses with standardized motors and parts shared with other vehicles.

Maybe the failure of the bus system resulted more from consumer fault than corporate fault. It is possible, after all, that GM would have been perfectly happy to have all the public-transit riders who used streetcars go on using buses instead, and maybe that would have been a more cost-efficient way of maintaining public transportation than the streetcar system. This is just speculation, of course, since I really don't know much about the details of what happened.
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Old 11-14-18, 09:01 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It would be interesting to know what the ultimate intent behind the elimination of the streetcars and rails was. Maybe it was to subvert public transportation and force everyone into personal vehicle ownership, but maybe they really thought that it would be more efficient to use buses with standardized motors and parts shared with other vehicles.

Maybe the failure of the bus system resulted more from consumer fault than corporate fault. It is possible, after all, that GM would have been perfectly happy to have all the public-transit riders who used streetcars go on using buses instead, and maybe that would have been a more cost-efficient way of maintaining public transportation than the streetcar system. This is just speculation, of course, since I really don't know much about the details of what happened.
Blah, Blah, Blah… The intent was to get people into cars... and sell them those cars... It's as simple as that...
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Old 11-14-18, 09:17 PM
  #96  
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The U.S. was open and vast and nobody considered the future of our natural resources. Not congested and compact like it was in Europe.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:59 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It would be interesting to know what the ultimate intent behind the elimination of the streetcars and rails was. Maybe it was to subvert public transportation and force everyone into personal vehicle ownership, but maybe they really thought that it would be more efficient to use buses with standardized motors and parts shared with other vehicles.

Maybe the failure of the bus system resulted more from consumer fault than corporate fault. It is possible, after all, that GM would have been perfectly happy to have all the public-transit riders who used streetcars go on using buses instead, and maybe that would have been a more cost-efficient way of maintaining public transportation than the streetcar system. This is just speculation, of course, since I really don't know much about the details of what happened.
A) You could research what happened.

B) Do you really think it has been a 120 year conspiracy?
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Old 11-15-18, 06:22 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Machka View Post
A) You could research what happened.

B) Do you really think it has been a 120 year conspiracy?
I have done some research on it, but I should do more.

Idk about a 'conspiracy,' but what I do think happens is that the critics of companies/industries overemphasize the sinister intent to the extent that it doesn't really capture how the business people involved actually thought about the situation. E.g. I was watching Supersize Me recently, and they were interviewing some industry lobbyist, who said that they wanted to provide more education about nutrition so that people could make better choices, but that their job as food suppliers was to offer the broadest range of food options possible. Now, that might have been sincere or that might have been a line to whitewash the practice of adding lots of sugar to foods to weigh them down with cheap filler that tastes good to uncritical consumers.

Anyway, with regard to GM, I think I could do research and find some accounts that are very harsh on GM as systematically attacking public transit and other accounts that say GM was just realizing a common-dream of personal automobiles for everyone because that was what people wanted and thought would make for a good future before they realized congestion and sprawl would turn into a nightmare.
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Old 11-15-18, 02:41 PM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I have done some research on it, but I should do more.

Idk about a 'conspiracy,' but what I do think happens is that the critics of companies/industries overemphasize the sinister intent to the extent that it doesn't really capture how the business people involved actually thought about the situation. E.g. I was watching Supersize Me recently, and they were interviewing some industry lobbyist, who said that they wanted to provide more education about nutrition so that people could make better choices, but that their job as food suppliers was to offer the broadest range of food options possible. Now, that might have been sincere or that might have been a line to whitewash the practice of adding lots of sugar to foods to weigh them down with cheap filler that tastes good to uncritical consumers.

Anyway, with regard to GM, I think I could do research and find some accounts that are very harsh on GM as systematically attacking public transit and other accounts that say GM was just realizing a common-dream of personal automobiles for everyone because that was what people wanted and thought would make for a good future before they realized congestion and sprawl would turn into a nightmare.
it is all a matter of perspective. GM may not “Realize” any such connection between sprawl and congestion. Often sprawl is a way to escape congestion. When I used to live in larger urban centers congestion was more or less a constant. Worse during rush hour but there all day. Think Seattle, LA, Las Vegas, San Diego. Once you get into a position you can move out, “sprawl” if you will, congestion goes away. For the last 20 years a car may drive by my house once every hour maybe two. Not congestion by any means. I can drive from LA to Oklahoma City and only be find congestion in the urban centers about every 100 to 200 miles when in Texas.

It seems someone other than GM has to be concerned with the connection between congestion and sprawl. GM has to be concerned with what the customers want to buy not what non customers think.
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Old 11-15-18, 03:59 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
it is all a matter of perspective. GM may not “Realize” any such connection between sprawl and congestion. Often sprawl is a way to escape congestion.
Sprawl is what happens when developers buy up land around a city and develop it with the idea that they can market a subdivision or job-site as 'just a short drive from the city.' At first, there's not much traffic to go back and forth to that area from other parts of the city, but as the developments grow and snowball, the traffic gets worse and worse until you end up with multilane roads, highways, expressways, bypasses, toll roads, etc.

From a financial perspective of investors living elsewhere, the sprawl development is a good thing, because all the road building and development renders concrete sales, contracts to build on the concrete, new business opportunities in the space built, etc. But from the perspective of people who moved out to a rural area to get away from bustle, it's a nightmare. Everyone wants the bustle of business and traffic to happen far from their own backyard.

When I used to live in larger urban centers congestion was more or less a constant. Worse during rush hour but there all day. Think Seattle, LA, Las Vegas, San Diego. Once you get into a position you can move out, “sprawl” if you will, congestion goes away. For the last 20 years a car may drive by my house once every hour maybe two. Not congestion by any means. I can drive from LA to Oklahoma City and only be find congestion in the urban centers about every 100 to 200 miles when in Texas.
I think a certain elite could have the lifestyle you're talking about without it hurting the environment too much, but there are too many people for everyone to live like that without it having negative impacts.

It seems someone other than GM has to be concerned with the connection between congestion and sprawl. GM has to be concerned with what the customers want to buy not what non customers think.
I just don't think that efforts to reform automotive culture are all doomed because of what people are concerned about outside the business/economics of auto-production, maintenance, insurance, etc. etc. These are big businesses that deal in a lot of money and they have a lot of people convinced that they can't live well with less than the excesses that they've normalized.

If everyone denies responsibility because they want to shift the burden to others, then nothing ever changes for the better. Everyone just keeps passing the buck, so to speak.
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