linberl

I'm guessing you don't live here or you would know that ridership takes more than 130 million trips annually (not including the Metro or busses). We are an area where alternative transit is not only common but the best method of getting around. People don't drive in Manhattan much, either. And many use bikes+Bart modalities. Much like Manhattan, a car is a liabiity here - parking is scarce, expensive and tickets are frequent.
Here is a snapshot of what we learned about biking in San Francisco 2017.

• Last year over 14 miles of bikeways were added or upgraded.
• August saw the highest bike ridership with 1,368,437 bikes counted.
• More than 44,000 bikes were counted on an average weekday. The peak of the morning commute occurs from 8:30-9:00 a.m. and the peak of the evening commute from 5:30-6:00 p.m.
• The installation of new FordGoBike bike share stations led to a 10 percent increase in bikes counted on nearby routes. In the second half of 2017 alone, there were over 411,000 bike share trips of a little over a mile on average.
• The counter that logged the greatest number of bikes in 2017 was the Panhandle counter with 794,124 bikes!
• The most recent US Census ridership data from 2016 estimates 3.9 percent of commute trips were regularly made by bike.

Mobile 155

Perhaps, but the League of American Bicyclists didn't say it was a growing number on the whole. As a matter of fact they indicated the big cities fell off a bit.
https://bikeleague.org/content/bike-...still-show-way

Dahon.Steve

Those who are already carfree today did so without an ebike. In fact, most of the country who are carfree don't even use a bicycle and it's highly unlikely they will spend over 1K on a motorized bike.

I was thinking about buying a DIY kit and build one up buy why spend the money? If I'm already carfree for close to 20 years, there's no need to waste money. I would like to see the e-bike create more carfree cyclists but people who are buying them are into mountain biking or commuting and are car dependent!

radroad

This whole car free meme is a canard. Every last person who claims to be car free is heavily dependent on petrol, just like everyone else in the petrol guzzling world.

You bike to the grocery store? The veggies, frozen and canned goods, meat, cereal were all trucked in. You honestly think those foods were shipped in via bicycle?

All of those neat little doo dads and add ons for your eco-friendly bike? Yeah, trucked in, or even worse, flown in to a distribution center. More petrol burned.

That cool polyester/nylon bag to carry your groceries in? Yeah, more petrol consumed.

Your poly jersey? Petrol. Drilled out of the ground, destroying the ecosystems and oceans.

Your fake leather shoes? Same. Plastic soles? Bad for the environment.

And your lovely touring bike? Shipped in from Taiwan/China using the dirtiest fuel possible. You are contributing to acid rain. Not to mention the pollution holocaust in industrial Chinese cities.

This is all just empty virtue signaling. Instead of driving to Target or Walmart, you are burning just as much fuel by having it shipping/trucked/flown in from hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Maelochs

Radroad, much depends on why people want to be "car-free."

Also ... if those people drove cars, all the shipping and accessories would still obtain ,... and the cars would burn petrol. Also, the shipping would take a lot more diesel and cars are heavier and bulkier. Cars take more energy to produce, transport, and operate. They take up more space in landfills/scrap yards.

Unless you have numbers ... yours is kind of a troll post. People riding bikes produce less pollution, cradle-to-grave of the transport device, than people driving cars. It is so obvious is it comical that anyone would arguer otherwise.

But not everyone wants to be car-free just to produce less pollution anyway.

On another hand, not every one Can be car-free. As I pointed out, if you have three kids that all need to go to different day cares/schools, carrying all their gear and sports equipment, and the parent has to be to work at around the same time ... a trailer ain't going to cut it. My wife commutes 40 miles each way by car and has to present a professional appearance when she arrives at work. That would be a two-and-a-half hour or more bike ride under the best of circumstances, and I would not be ready for a long shift when I arrived.

Car-free, car-lite---works for some folks, not for others. Who cares?

E-bikes will certainly help a lot of transport cyclists as they age, but I don't see them dramatically changing transport patterns and preferences, at least not in the U.S. I can recall about two decades back mopeds and scooters were going to do that---get more low-income people on the road for less money, provide an fun, low-cost car option for young people, mopeds and small scooters (250-cc or so mopeds with engines under the seat) were going to change the face of North American transport---we'd be like Italy, for instance. All those scooter dealers went out of business in five years.

I don't know what the future might hold. Almost anything could happen. But I don't see bikes replacing e-bikes, because most people ride for sport, and I don't see e-bikes cutting into car or mass-transit use in a more than minuscule way.

@linberl, listing numbers what he thought was a cycle-commuting Nirvana, San Francisco, had to admit that fewer than four percent of all commuter rides were done by bike or e-bike--in a place with excellent infrastructure, a compact urban design, and amazing weather. Meanwhile, apparently, cycling was down a little across the country.

But hey ... why argue over stuff we cannot know? Let;'s just sit back and see.

I-Like-To-Bike

Nothing in your so-called "snapshot of what we learned about biking in San Francisco 2017" indicates that anybody in SF, Manhattan, or anywhere else, is using cargo bikes, bakfiets, or tiny e-cars to do anything.

Buglady

I have this one in a step-through frame: https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5060-9...B2-8-28-E-bike

Disclaimer: I actually work at MEC and the staff discount and employee bike purchase incentive program we have did figure heavily into my selection of this particular model! But I definitely wanted the Bosch mid-drive system for pedal assist, and having fenders, rack, and lighting built in was a plus as well. I can install all of those things, but it's much easier if they come ready to roll.

Pros: WHEEEEEEEEEE it is so nice to be able to ride fast and smooth again and not wheeze and gasp my way up hills. (My body betrayed me a couple of years ago, long story, but I went from extremely athletic to damn nearly housebound in a matter of months. I am getting better, slowly).

I am particularly fond of the way the Bosch Performance Line CX motor can be programmed either in distinct levels (Eco, Tour, Sport, and Turbo) or with the new "eMTB" mode where the motor responds to the rider's cadence and torque applied to the pedals, offering a bit of extra power when needed but not becoming over-powered and jumpy. Battery life is quite good. I am charging it up once a week, about 80km. I've never run it all the way down.

The long wheelbase and low center of mass make the bike extremely stable, even when the panniers are loaded with a lot of cargo, or in winter road conditions. Six inches of snow was pushing it, but that would have been true of any vehicle really. I have a studded tire on the front for steering control, but I've had *no* issues.

Cons: Not many I can think of. This bike is BIG. It's great to ride, but I'm glad I am not trying to haul it in and out of a small space. I have a garage where it can live in lonely splendor!

dedhed

Having worked in the auto recycling business at one time, cars don't go to landfills and do not linger long in scrapyards, unless it's a parts type place.
Even then, once the highest value parts are gone, and those are often pulled and "stocked" right away, it's on it's way to the shredder.

Maelochs

Right, and Some of the shredded metal might get recycled.

The same can be said for bikes, though---most are stripped for any good parts, and the metal, either Al or steel, can be recycled.

Here again people looking to argue and nitpick miss the point by so far it is hard to imagine.

Cars are BIGGER and MORE MASSIVE than bikes ... by a small bit. Therefore they produce MORE WASTE when recycled/discarded---however they are processed.

if you want to argue that there is more matter in a 26-lb bicycle than a 3600-lb car, go ahead. If you want to explain how that matter is hyper-compressed into neutron sludge or something in a crusher, provide documentation. Otherwise, cars take up more space.

This isn't something that we should be arguing, eh? Cars are bigger than bikes. If we cannot agree on that ... well, at least one of us has a pretty big problem.

dedhed

I'm not arguing that autos don't have a bigger footprint in the world and ultimately most bikes get recycled, (although CF is likely changing that scenario) but that you seem to think that autos are minimally recycled when the fact is they are one of the most recycled consumer products out there, and have been for decades.
For example your statement. Some of the shredded metal might get recycled.
That's total BS. If a car makes it to a metal recycler, it is being reused plain and simple. Scrap does not make any money for the recycler sitting.

Every year, more than 18 million tons of steel from automobiles are recycled by the steel industry. Approximately, 86 percent of a car’s material content is recycled, reused or used for energy recovery.
About 60 percent of a passenger vehicle consists of steel and iron. The steel used to make a brand new car contains at least 25 percent of recycled content.

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/auto-r...lenges-4011892

badger1

This ^^^

The statistics are very clear, and easily obtainable. The typical 'modern' car is recycled (materials) 75 to 80%, according to both European and North American sources.

As for the rest of the post to which you are responding, total strawman. Straw is organic, and quite 'recyclable', I suppose, but still ...

tandempower

Am I the only person here who thinks about pavement and sprawl (land waste). While cars and bikes are being 'shredded' and recycled for parts and metal, land is not. How many parcels of land are ever restored/reforested after they've been developed? How many are even partially restored by reducing the size of buildings/pavement on them and replanting lost trees? How many multilane roads and highways have mowed medians and shoulders that render them more-or-less completely dead for the sake of drivers having greater visibility and being able to pull off the road?

I-Like-To-Bike

Yes, you are the only person anywhere who "thinks" like this.

tandempower

What does that matter? Since when are you someone who gives thinking more credence than reality?

Please apply your realism to sorting out whether paved land is recycled when cars are recycled for parts and metal? Hint: the car parts and materials are renewed into new cars and the land isn't because the new cars keep driving on the same paved corridors.

Now are you going to tell me that's not reality?

badger1

No, you are not the only one here "who thinks about pavement and sprawl (land waste)."

Machka 

This has nothing to do with ebikes. If you're going to talk about whatever it is you're talking about here, please start a new thread rather than hijacking this one. Have some courtesy for a change.

Machka 

A couple of my coworkers have ebikes.

It's so hilly here that riding a non-motorised bicycle can be quite a challenge.

I-Like-To-Bike

Do your ebike riding coworkers also do without owning or having access to a motorized 4 wheel vehicle in their household?

Machka 

I'm not sure. Neither of them have ever mentioned owning a 4 wheel vehicle.

I know one spent 5 years sailing around the world with her family and they had regular bicycles (non-motorised) on board to use to get around when they docked somewhere. I don't know whether they've purchased a 4-wheeled vehicle in the year or so that they have settled on land. But I do know that they have bicycles of both the motor and non-motor variety.

tandempower

If people are talking about how cars are recycled instead of ending up in landfills, is it not appropriate to mention in that context that the land paved for cars to drive and park on are not recycled? I wouldn't have said what I said randomly in the thread, but if the topic of waste is being discussed, why should I avoid mentioning land waste?

If you wouldn't start a side-discussion about it and call it 'hijacking,' it would have just been one post response to a series of comments about waste. Now because you've called me out, that invites a response, and you and three other people will end up responding to my response, and that unfolding of posts will end up hijacking the thread.

dedhed

https://wisconsindot.gov/rdwy/stndspec/ss-02-14.pdf

Machka 

Do you have an ebike?
Do you know people who use ebikes?

Dahon.Steve

I want to return the topic back to the original post because one of the main reasons I'm staying away from the electric bike movement is due to the fact there is no nationwide repair center for them. I visit local bike shops and notice they are selling 2K electric bikes from Giant or Trek with complex built in motors and not a single person on staff with the knowledge to repair them. It's like buying a car from a dealer but if something goes wrong, you have to ship the vehicle back to Detroit for repairs!

Also, I'm noticing new electric bike frames being constructed and sold each year with numerous of exotic parts. Is there anyone stocking these parts or will the e-bike simply get tossed to the shredder in 7-10 years. It seems like today's e-bike is creating a disposable form of transport because I've yet to see any e-bike sold ten years ago still on the street today.

Having said that, I'm still considering building one up with an inexpensive front wheel and small battery. This way I can still return the bike back to it's original form once the motor no longer works. ;-)

Mobile 155

Just a matter of perspective. Are you posting on a 10 year old smart phone or computer?

Buglady

I can answer both of your questions.


Re: training of technicians for e-bike repair:

• Most of the bikes that my store sells are equipped with Bosch motors (most of the Trek, Specialized, Gianbt, Cube, Haibike, Electra, and drat, I know I'm forgetting one big one, also use Bosch, or Shimano STePS).
  
• Bosch offers one seminar class per year in larger North American cities for their products. Typically one or two senior or master mechanics from a shop are sent to these seminars and they return to their shop to train others. These classes can fill up a year in advance.
  
• Shimano offers online training for STePS, but it is oriented toward sales and support more than major repair.
  

So that is coming from the *manufacturers,* not the local shops or techs.


Secondly, when it comes to repair of major failures in mid-mount e-bike motors, the fix IS to replace the drive unit. I can update system firmware, replace all external parts of the drivetrain (chain, cassette, etc), and replace any cables, seals, or parts of the housing that have cracked, as well as any bearings etc. I can also drop, re-wire, and re-mount the drive unit, but I can't do anything to its guts.


It's not the same thing as "sending the whole car away" because your car's motor is composed of many more parts than the e-bike drive unit has. It's more like taking out the alternator and putting in a new one. Failed drive units do get sent to the manufacturer's service center - many are in Virginia - for testing. Some get repaired and sent back out. Same with batteries.


Re: no ten year old e-bikes: pedal assist as we know it today was was a very new technology ten years ago. Now it is a mature technology. This is like complaining in 1995 that you don't want to buy a DVD player because you don't see Betamax players still being used. (Or laserdisc. I don't know, I lived in a cave that decade, this analogy has gotten away from me a bit). Direct drive (power on demand or throttle) e-bike systems have changed less, but also have more legal restrictions, more technical challenges, and less market share.


Batteries are where things have changed the most. We can thank the electric car industry for that. Batteries now have an expected service lifespan of 8-10 years with very little loss of power or charge capacity, whereas ten years ago you would often be looking at a two year lifespan before losing too much power.


Nothing lasts forever, and to be honest, even a non-electric bike from ten years ago will, in most cases, be approaching the end of its design lifespan.