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High Speed Rail: what do other know that we don't?

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High Speed Rail: what do other know that we don't?

Old 05-10-19, 03:00 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Nice set of videos and some HSR press releases. But if we are thinking about the future isn't HSR simply looking at old technology that easily could prove obsolete if Elon Musk had his way? After all SpaceX is working and he has a plan that would be even greener than electric generated power for a HSR. And there would be lots more private investment and less increased taxes. Does he know something other countries don't? If you are going to tie HSR to being Green some things are even greener and faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLd7pXhIZQo
Great, Elon is rich so let him build it and see if anybody comes. As for me, it matter little how its done or what technology is used, only that they start doing something now as an alternative to air travel. The true future is trains without tracks, but the good new is that we don't have to be limited to just one technology for HSR to work.

The hyperloop sounds ideal particularly in regions of long expanse across a whole lot of nothing (Kansas comes to mind). But over the complex terrain switch to a more conventional systems. The greatest advantage of trains is that they're modular so we can add or subtract to suit the environment.

Remember, planes aren't all the same either. For long intercontinental travel we use wide-body jets. But on short jaunts across the state we still use pro driven aircraft which are more efficient. The best of both worlds.
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Old 05-10-19, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Nice set of videos and some HSR press releases. But if we are thinking about the future isn't HSR simply looking at old technology that easily could prove obsolete if Elon Musk had his way? After all SpaceX is working and he has a plan that would be even greener than electric generated power for a HSR. And there would be lots more private investment and less increased taxes. Does he know something other countries don't? If you are going to tie HSR to being Green some things are even greener and faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLd7pXhIZQo
I like how there are windows on the cars, but the Hyperloop train will be traveling in a tube. Maybe the train is outside the tube at the start and finish?

I wonder how tube security would be accomplished? I mean, one terrorist bomb on the tube somewhere while the train is on its way would be catastrophic.
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Old 05-10-19, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
I like how there are windows on the cars, but the Hyperloop train will be traveling in a tube. Maybe the train is outside the tube at the start and finish?

I wonder how tube security would be accomplished? I mean, one terrorist bomb on the tube somewhere while the train is on its way would be catastrophic.
LCDs aka fake scenery? As to the terrorist threat, they only hold 40 passengers per car. An extended transit bus holds more, so a waste of materials to attack one.
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Old 05-10-19, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
LCDs aka fake scenery? As to the terrorist threat, they only hold 40 passengers per car. An extended transit bus holds more, so a waste of materials to attack one.
Won't there be more than one car per train? Like 8, 10, 12, etc.?
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Old 05-10-19, 08:50 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
Won't there be more than one car per train? Like 8, 10, 12, etc.?
From the video it looks like the tube is just one car at a time (not connected). Not sure how they will schedule it though?
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Old 05-10-19, 10:08 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
From the video it looks like the tube is just one car at a time (not connected). Not sure how they will schedule it though?
If it's only one car at a time, it seems like we got ourselves a case of the Concorde in a tube. Which would mean seats won't be cheap.
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Old 05-10-19, 10:30 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
If it's only one car at a time, it seems like we got ourselves a case of the Concorde in a tube. Which would mean seats won't be cheap.
If Musk is to be believed, it will cost less than the predicted HSR. You can shoot a car load of people the tube every few minutes.

It it would be no harder to derail a HSR full of passengers at 200 mph than attacking a hyper loop.

This is all bench racing because we donít have a HSR or Hyper Loop. I am just saying as long as you are dreaming you should add the newest technology.

I would much rather Musk find a way of financing the Hyper Loop than taxing my neighbor through the nose for a train they donít really seem to want.
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Old 05-10-19, 02:37 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
To answer this question you only have to look at what people do. They look at their own comfort first and then if there is any excess they might think about some future they will not live to see.

When it comes to public sacrifice people what someone else to carry the load. We fight wars with people that want something different than we do. Every country and every government wants to believe they are the best and their ideas are worth more than any other country or government. It has been that way since someone was putting drawings on cave walls. It isnít likely to change now.

As as long as people believe technology can keep us going sustainability becomes just a word. People will gamble against sustainability by living on an island made by an active volcano. They will believe scientists that say we have climate change but when the same people hear from the same scientists that the largest Caldera in the world is over due for an eruption they will give tours there and build s national park.

That at is how the human race is. We bet against the future. We arenít as likely to invest in something that will not benefit our group directly, that goes for HSR when we had higher speed planes.
Relativism is the straw you grasp at when you don't want to face the truth. Good luck with it.
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Old 05-10-19, 04:41 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Relativism is the straw you grasp at when you don't want to face the truth. Good luck with it.
Dreaming about what isnít taking place is a gas that canít be grasped. Try again.
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Old 05-10-19, 08:39 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Dreaming about what isnít taking place is a gas that canít be grasped. Try again.
What does that have to do with playing the relativism card against sustainability?
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Old 05-10-19, 09:24 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
What does that have to do with playing the relativism card against sustainability?
Sustainability in a world with more people than it can support is a dream not a reality. What people do and are doing can be measured and studied.

My my observations are only relativism in that they do not see your wishes regarding trains, Buses, dense living and lack of sprawl as absolute truths. I see your solutions as dreaming about a society that no longer exists, if it ever did.
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Old 05-11-19, 09:43 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Sustainability in a world with more people than it can support is a dream not a reality. What people do and are doing can be measured and studied.
Assumptions of overpopulation are just that, assumptions. Let me ask you this: do you think it is possible for engineers to build a space station/vehicle that can sustain human life in a self-contained system outside of Earth's biosphere? If you do, why wouldn't you think humans can live sustainably within the biosphere? If not, then what do you think it is about the biosphere that makes human life possible, when it isn't possible to sustain outside the atmosphere?

My my observations are only relativism in that they do not see your wishes regarding trains, Buses, dense living and lack of sprawl as absolute truths. I see your solutions as dreaming about a society that no longer exists, if it ever did.
You're talking in circles. Relativism is asserting that the truth about anything is subjective to avoid dealing with that truth. It's an escape hatch when you're failing to win an argument against truth.
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Old 05-11-19, 11:23 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Assumptions of overpopulation are just that, assumptions. Let me ask you this: do you think it is possible for engineers to build a space station/vehicle that can sustain human life in a self-contained system outside of Earth's biosphere? If you do, why wouldn't you think humans can live sustainably within the biosphere? If not, then what do you think it is about the biosphere that makes human life possible, when it isn't possible to sustain outside the atmosphere?You're talking in circles. Relativism is asserting that the truth about anything is subjective to avoid dealing with that truth. It's an escape hatch when you're failing to win an argument against truth.
Sometimes a dictionary helps.

rel∑a∑tiv∑ism/ˈrelədəˌvizəm/Learn to pronounce: Noun: the doctrine that knowledge, truth, and morality exist in relation to culture, society, or historical context, and are not absolute.

is this what you meant to say I believe?

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Old 05-11-19, 12:59 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Sometimes a dictionary helps.

rel∑a∑tiv∑ism/ˈrelədəˌvizəm/Learn to pronounce: Noun: the doctrine that knowledge, truth, and morality exist in relation to culture, society, or historical context, and are not absolute.

is this what you meant to say I believe?
Your response to unsustainability and climate is that not everyone sees it the same way. You're implying that there's no truth beyond what a majority chooses to believe. That is relativism.

My point is that people who don't want to deal with truth as a real thing resort to relativism to deny it. They say one person's truth is another's lie or whatever, instead of acknowledging that there is such a thing as what's true and that those who are denying the truth are accepting lies in its place.
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Old 05-12-19, 02:20 AM
  #40  
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I sense ulterior motives at work here. Which is typically the case when obvious advancements are hindered due to frivolous arguments against it.

After all, an entire civil war was fought over the advancement to industrialization purely for the cause of greed and wealth. Once people become dependent on machines, the economy based on slave labor becomes obsolete.
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Old 05-12-19, 07:21 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
I sense ulterior motives at work here. Which is typically the case when obvious advancements are hindered due to frivolous arguments against it.

After all, an entire civil war was fought over the advancement to industrialization purely for the cause of greed and wealth. Once people become dependent on machines, the economy based on slave labor becomes obsolete.
It's not that simple, but this thread is drifting away from high speed rail. If you want to continue on the 19th century, though, it was the beginning of railroads. Westward expansion created more economic opportunities for commerce/trade on/with the east coast. Human labor and its use/exploitation were changing, but it's not like everyone was liberated from work by the machines taking over and providing for them.

In fact, I think you can look at the HSR question in terms of how different economies manage travel in relation to the broader economy. In the US, the automotive economy has become established as a growth engine for investors both domestic and around the world. So there is resistance to HSR or other forms of transportation that could change the demand for driving; whereas there is less interest around the world for converting other transportation systems to being fully automotive and devoid of passenger rail as a choice, because it is more difficult to change what's established than to obstruct change when it is sought for whatever reasons.

Passenger trains were fairly common in the past, I've heard. Ironically, highways and sprawl were railroaded through to replace passenger rail and render it obsolete. Now we're stuck with highways and many of the rail corridors have been converted into lovely rail-trails, which is a good thing imo. So I would say keep the rail-trails and work on using buses as a type of 'train' that runs on highways instead of rails. In that way, highway expansion can be avoided by consolidating travelers into less vehicles overall.
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Old 05-12-19, 09:15 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Passenger trains were fairly common in the past, I've heard. Ironically, highways and sprawl were railroaded through to replace passenger rail and render it obsolete. Now we're stuck with highways and many of the rail corridors have been converted into lovely rail-trails, which is a good thing imo. So I would say keep the rail-trails and work on using buses as a type of 'train' that runs on highways instead of rails. In that way, highway expansion can be avoided by consolidating travelers into less vehicles overall.
Faster, more comfortable, and flexible forms of transportation came along and were embraced by the populace.
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Old 05-12-19, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It's not that simple, but this thread is drifting away from high speed rail. If you want to continue on the 19th century, though, it was the beginning of railroads. Westward expansion created more economic opportunities for commerce/trade on/with the east coast. Human labor and its use/exploitation were changing, but it's not like everyone was liberated from work by the machines taking over and providing for them.

In fact, I think you can look at the HSR question in terms of how different economies manage travel in relation to the broader economy. In the US, the automotive economy has become established as a growth engine for investors both domestic and around the world. So there is resistance to HSR or other forms of transportation that could change the demand for driving; whereas there is less interest around the world for converting other transportation systems to being fully automotive and devoid of passenger rail as a choice, because it is more difficult to change what's established than to obstruct change when it is sought for whatever reasons.

Passenger trains were fairly common in the past, I've heard. Ironically, highways and sprawl were railroaded through to replace passenger rail and render it obsolete. Now we're stuck with highways and many of the rail corridors have been converted into lovely rail-trails, which is a good thing imo. So I would say keep the rail-trails and work on using buses as a type of 'train' that runs on highways instead of rails. In that way, highway expansion can be avoided by consolidating travelers into less vehicles overall.
You seriously over-read that one. Just consider the debate you're having with that other guy, and read the first sentence of my post. The rest was used as an example, not a transition to a different topic.
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Old 05-12-19, 09:31 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post


Passenger trains were fairly common in the past, I've heard. Ironically, highways and sprawl were railroaded through to replace passenger rail and render it obsolete. Now we're stuck with highways and many of the rail corridors have been converted into lovely rail-trails, which is a good thing imo. So I would say keep the rail-trails and work on using buses as a type of 'train' that runs on highways instead of rails. In that way, highway expansion can be avoided by consolidating travelers into less vehicles overall.

That right there tells you how the USA views rail, whether freight or passenger. In my town, one old rail line was pulled up to make space for freeway expansion. Not enough freight or passenger traffic on that rail line to keep it. A rail to trail would have been nice, or even a commuter train, but this city doesn't have commuter trains that come in from the burbs.


Here, as well as other places, it's the USA's diminished manufacturing that has reduced freight rail. It used to be the manufacturing companies had rail service directly to their plant for bringing in raw materials. There are plenty of old manufacturing plants around here that have shuttered and the rail service spur to their building has been cut off from the main line.


What direct freight rail service we still have here is mostly related to oil, gas, petrochem, and the Houston ship channel delivering imported autos and container cars full of whatever came in from overseas.


By the way, many of the old manufacturing plants I have mentioned have been turned into new neighborhoods full of narrow 3 story condos. Those people that live close to the center of the city are the people that high speed rail will be serving if all goes as planned here.
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Old 05-12-19, 09:32 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Faster, more comfortable, and flexible forms of transportation came along and were embraced by the populace.
Yes. Freedom to go where you want when you want and not having to share space with others.
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Old 05-12-19, 09:36 AM
  #46  
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So far, the USA still isn't like this.

https://japantoday.com/category/feat...cated-in-japan

https://www.citylab.com/transportati...ations/560822/
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Old 05-12-19, 11:43 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
Yes. Freedom to go where you want when you want and not having to share space with others.
You have to share roads and highways with other cars when you drive.

You have to share planes with other passengers when you fly.

The difference with trains and buses is that you can stand up and use the bathroom without pulling off the road. Flying would be fine if it didn't burn so much fuel and make so much noise and fill up the skies with traffic.

Trains would ultimately be better, but there's just no way to stop them from becoming cancelled projects that ultimately served no other purpose than to put money in people's pockets to spend on driving.

Somehow buses have to evolve as a bridge between flying and trains, but it's a huge cultural challenge for people who just can't understand the limitations of air-travel and driving because that's what they see as normal and thus accept uncritically.
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Old 05-12-19, 01:26 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Assumptions of overpopulation are just that, assumptions. Let me ask you this: do you think it is possible for engineers to build a space station/vehicle that can sustain human life in a self-contained system outside of Earth's biosphere? If you do, why wouldn't you think humans can live sustainably within the biosphere? If not, then what do you think it is about the biosphere that makes human life possible, when it isn't possible to sustain outside the atmosphere?


You're talking in circles. Relativism is asserting that the truth about anything is subjective to avoid dealing with that truth. It's an escape hatch when you're failing to win an argument against truth.
You might have a better point than you imagine. A space station or Biosphere is something they can and do have. And what is the catch to how sustainable those two examples are? The number of people in them. Increase the number by 25 percent and is a biosphere still sustainable? Notice it isnít a transportation issue that endangers sustainability? It is the number that live there. Why? Because it is a closed system. The earth is a closed system. Google maximum sustainable human population. See if building an HSR changes that?

Making a point for HSR against planes is one thing. Trying to add sustainability to the argument is not going to prove we need HSR. Once again my opinion based on population studies.
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Old 05-12-19, 02:07 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by FiftySix View Post
That right there tells you how the USA views rail, whether freight or passenger. In my town, one old rail line was pulled up to make space for freeway expansion. Not enough freight or passenger traffic on that rail line to keep it. A rail to trail would have been nice, or even a commuter train, but this city doesn't have commuter trains that come in from the burbs.


Here, as well as other places, it's the USA's diminished manufacturing that has reduced freight rail. It used to be the manufacturing companies had rail service directly to their plant for bringing in raw materials. There are plenty of old manufacturing plants around here that have shuttered and the rail service spur to their building has been cut off from the main line.


What direct freight rail service we still have here is mostly related to oil, gas, petrochem, and the Houston ship channel delivering imported autos and container cars full of whatever came in from overseas.


By the way, many of the old manufacturing plants I have mentioned have been turned into new neighborhoods full of narrow 3 story condos. Those people that live close to the center of the city are the people that high speed rail will be serving if all goes as planned here.

Umm, things are a bit insane in Harris County though lately, somebody hit a barge and made it look like a missing slice of pie with gasoline filling. It's raining everything but Ozzy Osbourne's Crazy Babies, kid got shot trying to commit a robbery, maybe you need a train.
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Old 05-12-19, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
Umm, things are a bit insane in Harris County though lately, somebody hit a barge and made it look like a missing slice of pie with gasoline filling. It's raining everything but Ozzy Osbourne's Crazy Babies, kid got shot trying to commit a robbery, maybe you need a train.
I heard about that on the radio as I drove from Harris County to the north side of Ft. Worth late this afternoon. Got a repair job up here for a day or two.

That took 4.75 hours including a quick dinner stop and I got stopped by A TRAIN in Hearne, Texas on the way up. Filled up my gas tank while everyone else waited for that TRAIN.
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