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Loss of drivers has hurt the us economy.

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Loss of drivers has hurt the us economy.

Old 05-07-07, 11:21 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by obliterator
If you were one of the people losing their jobs i'm sure you would be the first one to care. I'm also sure that their were many people who cared about the loss of the buggy. My point isn't the workers that directly would be hurt from the loss of their jobs in the automotive industry, but the economy that would be affected by the loss of people using the car. Are country has been built up to what we see know adays thanks to the car and if it were to become extinct so would are economy. I don't think the buggy traveled 20 miles to get organic groceries.
I suspect you're a "troll", but if you're sincere about what you write, let me point out the following:

1. It should be patently obvious to anyone that cars will be a fact of life in North America until they simply become too expensive to own or to drive. It's not like everyone in Atlanta is suddenly going to toss aside the Expedition in favor of a Trek.

2. If and when a shift away from cars occurs, it will signal an opportunity, not a crisis. If we move away from cars, the infrastructure will have to be modified; someone is going to have to make a whole lot of bikes; still others will have to help maintain those bikes, and provide parts for them; rail systems will have to be built; and so on. There will be jobs, and a lot of them, for those who are paying attention.

3. In the larger scheme of things, getting rid of cars would vastly improve the quality of life in most urban areas. Among other things, getting rid of cars would make public spaces public, and usable, again. More people would be out and about, because it would be safer and much more pleasant, which in turn would be very good for all kinds of retail businesses.

4. Finally, our (as opposed to are) country was not built up to what we see nowadays because of the car. The US became great, in economic terms, because of steel, agriculture, heavy industry, electrical production, and later, information and communications technology. (And IMHO, the basis of all of our good fortune is the US Constitution.) Cars are the result of our wealth, not a cause. Let's not confuse a luxury, a cost, for an asset.

In short, cars suck. They degrade the quality of life in urban areas, are a blight on the average person's finances, and, were their use not heavily subsidized by the government, would be economically impossible on anything near the scale we see today. Don't even begin to think our economy depends on cars. Quite the opposite.

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Old 05-08-07, 12:27 AM
  #102  
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The world changed shape as the automobile became cheaper and more-accessible to people. After a certain amount of time, ownership of a car came to be seen as a necessity, rather than a luxury, as things like urban sprawl were facilitated by more common ownership of private, motorised transport. Phase the car out as it was phased in, and the world will change shape again - just as gradually, with plenty of grumbling and suffering on the part of some people.

Just as widespread car ownership made it possible to work 50kms from where you live, which allowed employers to buy cheap land well outside city limits and expect their employees to drive to work, less widespread car ownership will make it less and less viable for employees to drive 50kms to work, and employers will either have to move their operation or install a train or bus line.

People will adapt, if the instance of car-ownership declines, and if people adapt, the economy adapts.
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Old 05-08-07, 09:16 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by obliterator
Your argument is based soley on faith that people who lose their jobs will find another one, am I correct? But the automotive industry is excessively massive employing hundreds of thousands of workers. The U.S. has been set up where goods and services are not readily accessible by bike and have been designed under the assumption that people can get their using a car. If the car manufacturers go out of buisness that would be due to a lack of interest in the autombile. And if this happens many buisnesses that rely on their customers getting to their establishment by car will lose out on many customers. In return their buisnesses will go under. So if the closure of automobile factories lead to the closure of buisnesses that rely on people having automobiles, where will all the people laid of from car plant work?
The US wasn't set up that way, it morphed that way, because cheap oil, made a horribly inefficent way to get around, cheap. People in the US have forgotten the way it was before Henry Ford made the automobile cheap. If you look at older sections of cities that existed before 1900, they often retain some semblance to what they were like before the automobile.

Shopping, well, in 1899, when you wanted a pair of shoes, you walked down to Thomas Brown, Esq. Shoemaker, Mr Brown then measured your feet, you selected a style, and would be told you could pick up your new shoes Wednesday Next. Mr Brown would then make your shoes, based on his measurements.

The leather for your new shoes, came from Vincent's Leather Tannery, down on 12th Avenue, and Vincent bought the hides from City Meat Processing, on Union Street, who bought the cow from Hank Czynski and Sons farms, which was about 3 miles outside the city. Hank was a general farmer, he and his 5 sons, grew just about anything on their 17 acres. Okay, back to your new shoes, from cow to feet travelled less then 10 miles, and involved 4 different businesses, all located within a small geographical area. All of the jobs involved are within your local community, it's your friends and neighbours who work those jobs.

Now when you buy a pair of shoes, you get in the car, you drive the 35 miles to Wallymart, which isn't even in the same city, in a car made in Mexico, using gas that comes from Nigeria via France, you then have a choice of hundreds of different pairs of shoes, all made out of plastic, and all made in the same child slave labour camp, in China. The people working those jobs, are people with names you can't pronouce, from places you have never been.

So, if the auto industry failed tomorrow, people still have needs, people will still want stuff, it's just that they will buy it in some of the new smaller businesses that will pop up in neighbourhoods all over, because people will still want to work, and they will, just doing different things.
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Old 05-09-07, 09:17 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Wogsterca
The US wasn't set up that way, it morphed that way, because cheap oil, made a horribly inefficent way to get around, cheap. People in the US have forgotten the way it was before Henry Ford made the automobile cheap. If you look at older sections of cities that existed before 1900, they often retain some semblance to what they were like before the automobile.

Shopping, well, in 1899, when you wanted a pair of shoes, you walked down to Thomas Brown, Esq. Shoemaker, Mr Brown then measured your feet, you selected a style, and would be told you could pick up your new shoes Wednesday Next. Mr Brown would then make your shoes, based on his measurements.

The leather for your new shoes, came from Vincent's Leather Tannery, down on 12th Avenue, and Vincent bought the hides from City Meat Processing, on Union Street, who bought the cow from Hank Czynski and Sons farms, which was about 3 miles outside the city. Hank was a general farmer, he and his 5 sons, grew just about anything on their 17 acres. Okay, back to your new shoes, from cow to feet travelled less then 10 miles, and involved 4 different businesses, all located within a small geographical area. All of the jobs involved are within your local community, it's your friends and neighbours who work those jobs.

Now when you buy a pair of shoes, you get in the car, you drive the 35 miles to Wallymart, which isn't even in the same city, in a car made in Mexico, using gas that comes from Nigeria via France, you then have a choice of hundreds of different pairs of shoes, all made out of plastic, and all made in the same child slave labour camp, in China. The people working those jobs, are people with names you can't pronouce, from places you have never been.

So, if the auto industry failed tomorrow, people still have needs, people will still want stuff, it's just that they will buy it in some of the new smaller businesses that will pop up in neighbourhoods all over, because people will still want to work, and they will, just doing different things.
People also had to spend a month's salary to get those shoes. Now its a weeks salary, if your working for minimum wage. Most probable work a day or so to earn to money for shoes.
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Old 05-09-07, 09:21 AM
  #105  
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And yet the shoes lasted a very long time, and when they finally wore out, you took them back to get them repaired. Quality handmade goods made with heart and soul (instead of exploitation, sweatshops, throwaway junk, etc) is such a better concept. [That's why ETSY was born.]

Also, these days with technology, handmade goods are comparable in price to department stores. I make handmade clothing, and it's sweatshop free, and a shirt will cost you in some cases less, in some cases more than what you would buy in a store (depending on Walmart vs mall). So it's making a comeback!
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Old 05-09-07, 09:48 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by obliterator
Has anyone thought about how many jobs would be lost if people gave up purchasing new cars?
They'll all get jobs in the newly opened bicycle factories.....
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Old 05-09-07, 11:04 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by cooker
You're assuming those workers wouldn't be picked up by other industries.
In the 1960s or 1970s Algoma Steel employed 12,000 people, now they employ 3600. All through the mining, manufacturing and other heavy industry sector job numbers have been massively reduced by automation, but those jobs get replaced by jobs in the financial sector, the high-tech sector, the entertainment industry, service industries, etc. etc. etc. Plus, there's actually likely to be a severe labour shortage in North America in the next few years due to mass retirement of baby boomers.
I personally doubt that we will have a mass retirement of the Baby Boomer generation. With the rise of legal and illegal immigration, and the probable postponent of retirement of this group due to financial constraints, I think that we will need more jobs in the future, not less. As for the new car issue being discussed here, don't worry about that right now. People are so addicted to their cars that I see real growth in that direction, not less.
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Old 05-12-07, 10:43 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Wogsterca
... Shopping, well, in 1899, when you wanted a pair of shoes, ...
Great! I love narrative descriptions.

Originally Posted by ModoVincere
People also had to spend a month's salary to get those shoes. Now its a weeks salary, if your working for minimum wage. Most probable work a day or so to earn to money for shoes.
Using slave labor is not the same as making things more efficiently. In this case, we're using oil-based technologies to leverage slave labor at a false price point. Much like the cotton gin technology lead to the proliferation of slavery in this country. I wonder how long our slaves overseas have to work to earn a pair of shoes?

Does keeping our slaves 6000 miles away make it less immoral than when we had them working in fields?
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Old 05-12-07, 11:10 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by MarkS
Using slave labor is not the same as making things more efficiently. In this case, we're using oil-based technologies to leverage slave labor at a false price point.
So what do you wear on your feet? And what well paid craftsman is making them for you out of Eco-Nanny approved materials? Or do craft your own from recycled tire tread like our Asian comrades?
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Old 05-12-07, 12:46 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by MarkS
Using slave labor is not the same as making things more efficiently. In this case, we're using oil-based technologies to leverage slave labor at a false price point. Much like the cotton gin technology lead to the proliferation of slavery in this country. I wonder how long our slaves overseas have to work to earn a pair of shoes?

Does keeping our slaves 6000 miles away make it less immoral than when we had them working in fields?
No, but the fact that they're free to decline the jobs makes it less immoral. In fact, it makes it not slavery at all.

And I'd venture to guess that, apart from environmental costs, using overseas labor is the same as making things more efficiently as many of those laborers would probably be otherwise unemployed or at least producing much less (and getting paid much less).

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
So what do you wear on your feet? And what well paid craftsman is making them for you out of Eco-Nanny approved materials? Or do craft your own from recycled tire tread like our Asian comrades?
Once again, all you can think about is yourself. Nevermind the question of whether or not the shoes you wear are manufactured morally or efficiently. In my opinion they aren't manufactured immorally or inefficiently, but you don't care either way as long as you can get them conveniently and at a competitive price.
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Old 05-12-07, 03:14 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by makeinu
In my opinion they aren't manufactured immorally or inefficiently, but you don't care either way as long as you can get them conveniently and at a competitive price.
In contrast to wizards like yourself who prefer that the products on the market be over priced and hard to get. Is that your high concept plan for coercing everybody to live the Simple Life, eh? When do you propose the peasants will have time for their re-education camps?
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Old 05-12-07, 04:00 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
In contrast to wizards like yourself who prefer that the products on the market be over priced and hard to get. Is that your high concept plan for coercing everybody to live the Simple Life, eh? When do you propose the peasants will have time for their re-education camps?
I have no intention of coercing anybody to live any kind of life. However, that doesn't absolve me from moral responsibility.

Unfortunately, there are too many people like you in this world who care about nothing except price and convenience; People who are willing to screw over anybody for selfish gain; People that loot storefronts during crises. I have no intention of coercing those kinds of people to do anything, but I'll never intentionally join them. Sorry. I'm not a looter; not of storefronts, not of the earth, and not of poor developing countries.
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Old 05-12-07, 04:46 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by makeinu
I have no intention of coercing anybody to live any kind of life. However, that doesn't absolve me from moral responsibility.

Unfortunately, there are too many people like you in this world who care about nothing except price and convenience; People who are willing to screw over anybody for selfish gain; People that loot storefronts during crises. I have no intention of coercing those kinds of people to do anything, but I'll never intentionally join them. Sorry. I'm not a looter; not of storefronts, not of the earth, and not of poor developing countries.
Yeah, you are a dang Saint. Just ask and you will proclaim it again. In fact you don't even have to be asked.

What a simple character!
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Old 05-12-07, 05:36 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Yeah, you are a dang Saint. Just ask and you will proclaim it again. In fact you don't even have to be asked.
Um, no I'm not a saint and I have absolutely no idea where you might have gotten that idea from.

Not being a saint is no excuse to stop trying to do what's right, but you seem to think that no one should even try to do the right thing unless it's the most convenient, the most attractive, and the easiest thing to do.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
What a simple character!
Yeah, we know. You think anyone living without a car is some kind of toothless hippy and nothing will ever convince you otherwise.


I have no idea who you think you're talking to ILTB, but trying to pigeon hole me as some kind of self righteous hippie trying to live "the simple" life only makes you look like a fool.

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Old 05-13-07, 11:10 AM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by makeinu
No, but the fact that they're free to decline the jobs makes it less immoral. In fact, it makes it not slavery at all.
Just a note: Its STANdard practice to not feed the troll.

In regards to slavery, if you're not free to form a union, you're not free. Which is why its sad that our great "freedom-loving" country overthrows governments (like the democratically elected government of Guatemala in the 1940s) in order to prevent unionization of workers.

In regards to locally produced shoes, I just realized -- I grew up in a small town famous WorldWide for its shoes. I wore many pairs of shoes probably produced less than 10 miles away. No tree-hugging required. The company still exists, but I imagine they've outsourced like everyone else.

If businesses overseas had to follow the same safety and environmental regulations that we have here, more jobs would stay here. Which would be better for the economy AND environment. Businesses did a union-busting, environment-ignoring end-run when shipping jobs overseas. I don't understand how we can expect to have a sustainable economy that's manufacturing-free.
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