patc

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In the case of the OP, I did. I still do, although I have come to think it was likely inadvertent.


I don't assume it is an attack, nor do I assume the questions show a real interest in learning. I have nether time nor interest to indulge every question, and it would be stupid to do so. I did fell I partially misjudged the OP, and therefore gave a lengthy reply later.

I can't see how the idea of going car-free can surprise anyone, at least here, with the 6 o'clock news filled daily with talk of pollution, obesity, health issues, and the cost of fuel - and at the same time how pathways are being built, light rail is expanded, etc. I would not call it common, but hardly unusual either.

I feel fortunate to live here, but not "lucky". Ottawa has great cycling and public transit because of the leadership of its elected officials, and the voices of its residents. I go to city consultations whenever I can, as do many other people. We all make a choice to live here, a choice on whom to elect, and a choice to have our voices heard (or not). I never look at a public facility and feel it just "happened" or that it was put there by some "them" which my "us" had no voice in.

With the few exceptions of purely random factors, every aspect of our lives is a direct result of a choice - our own, that of others, or a group consensus.

subigo

This whole thread reminds me of the South Park episode that was on a few weeks ago... you know, the one where everyone starts to drive hybrid cars and becomes all smug. So smug they love the smell of their own farts......

sfcrossrider

Of ALL the things they could have picked on us (I'm from SF) for! I spent some time in Austin in the mid 90's... if ever a city loved the smell of it's own farts. No one I know gives a ***** if you ride a bike or drive a car. Most everyone I know rides because it's part of their culture (and they can't afford gas), not so they can jump on a soap box and trip out.

Now don't get me started on the whole "you don't own your pet you adopt it" thing. Talk about fart smellers.

bmike

+1 patc. I agree.


Local economy suffering? Do you shop there?
Local schools failing? Do you go to board meetings?
Local parks filled with trash? Do you ever help out to clean up?
Obese, tired, suffering from heart disease? Do you ever stop eating the crap that got you there, and start moving?
Tired of sending money to the insurance man and the oil man? Do you ever stop or slow your driving?
No bike lanes, or wide shoulders? Do you lobby for them?
No greenspace? Do you want that super store or trees? Have you raised your voice about it?
Teeth falling out? Do you go to the dentist and brush?
Wishing you could live in the fantasy perfect bicycling / walking community? Do you work towards it?

Life is choices. We make them all, and for many the choices we make directly relate to the quality of our lives and lifestyles.

Yes, money, fear, greed, all play a role in what / how we all can live. A small percentage of things may actually be "beyond our control" (I haven't found any that have limited my life just yet..)

PS, I'm not car free.

b-ride

well, i didn't read the entire four pages of this thread but i wanted to bring up a few things anyways.

i live car free for a few reasons. i don't like cars very much. i hate being stuck in traffic, wasting my time. they are expensive and they pollute. i admit, that presently i could not afford a car, but there have been times in my life when i could have purchased a (cheap) car. regardless of my financial situation, i still choose to live car free. i am not living my life so that i can get a car one day. (also, i generally don't buy name brand clothes either. why should i pay exhorbitant sums to advertise for already rich people?)

you're comment that "It's a lot simpler to get a $300/month raise and buy a car than it is to figure out how to ride home in the rain and the snow while carrying your groceries on the back of your bike." is frankly, asinine. if it was that "simple" to get a $300/month raise wouldn't everyone do it anyways? lots of people working in many industries (service, retail, part-time, etc) are living below or barely above the poverty line. macdonald's does not give out 300 dollar raises. nor does wal-mart or any other store that payst the majority of it's workers minimum wage. buying a good set of rain gear and a bike trailer seems pretty easy to me (not to mention cheaper).

also your comment about pollution and living bike free is a bit ridiculous. once a bicycle is manufactured the pollution it creates is negligible. minute amounts of oil, rubber and maybe brakepad dust is about it. whereas cars burn at least two kinds of fossil fuels. then there's the a/c system (though i think they are more environmentally friendly these days) and leaking engine fluids (transmission, brake, wipers). and let me know when they figure out what to do with those massive piles of used tires that are clogging up landfills or burning merrily away, sending clouds of black smoke into the atmosphere.

all that being said, i do realize that it's not practical for everyone to live car free. many families, disabled persons and those living in rural areas cannot get by without a car. however, too many people have multiple vehicles and use them needlessly. in the city, it is genereally quicker to go by bike for trips under ten kilometers.

finally, i appreciate that you weren't here just to poke a stick in the hornets nest and i'm sure next time you'll give your post a little more thought.

slisk

When I used to ride to work in the Arizona desert 27 miles each way, the best part was when other people told me I was crazy. That is worth it to me, but here is the clear answer to this issue.

Top Ten Reasons Not To Own A Car

10. Justifies the purchase of one $7,000 bike per year.
9. All bikes now fit in the garage.
8. Don’t get asked to help “them” move anymore.
7 Free membership in Accelerade 5000 gallon club.
6 Go ahead…eat the cheesecake, you earned it.
5 Free coffee mugs from the fuel use reduction committee at work
4 Enjoy being crazy. (The new title given to you by your heavy co-workers)
3 Enjoy your great grandkids!
2. What does gas cost?
and the #1 reason is…I hate that new car smell.

noisebeam

If you did this in the summer, then, yes you are/were crazy.

I do 8.5mi each way and that is reasonable, but over 25mi in 118F full sun is full nuts.

Al

crtreedude 

I can't believe I read this whole thing!

First of all - I really appreciate everyone of you who are trying to (or have succeeded) in living car free. PERIOD. No buts. It is a good thing. (and I am sure you all have much smaller buts than car owning people...)

As we are learning, energy is expensive - and converting food to energy (instead of fat) is a pretty good thing. Propelling yourself with a bike is pretty efficient too. Saves on energy. Energy is an issue right now. Seems to make sense to save as much as we can. Why in the world would someone want you to compete for the amount of gas available? Are prices not high enough? That would be like there being 10 people in a room with 9 sandwiches - one person says - I really don't like sandwiches, and one of the others says - "that is stupid - you should fight with us over these sandwiches" If people willing choose to live a livestyle that consumes less of a non-renewable resource - you would think that thanks would be a good response.

I can't be car free - well, I can be care free, but not truck free. We have our reforestation plantations - and have you ever tried to haul 20,000 seedlings on your bike? We have to have a certain amount of trucks and vehicles. Wish we didn't, but that I guess there are trade offs. I suspect I am more carbon neutral than any of you though...

Not sure why people would consider it strange for someone to go carless - after all, for most of history, they did, didn't they?

just my dos colones

Roody

great post crtreedude. I especially liked this analogy. I'm going to steal it!

crtreedude 

Thanks for the compliment!

Another thing occurred to me this morning regarding this. The average Baby Boomer has about 51,000 dollars saved up for retirement - trust me, you ain't going to do very well with this amount. But, for you youngsters out there - imagine you take the money you are saving not having a car and start stuffing it away for retirement. Even if you only got 6% on the money, if you are 25, you would retire with a cool million in the bank. Not bad for "do without" something you can live without. However, I suspect doing without money when you are 65 is harder than doing without a car when you have other means of transportation.

This is assuming that you stuff away 6,262.15 per year in savings from using a bike instead of a car. Now, if you go out and get a car so that you "sometimes" can have one - I suspect the savings drop like a stone.

So, the next time someone hastles you - just ask. "So, how much do you have in your retirement fund?" I suspect you will see someone duck and run!

What I like about the concept of living car free is it is very much taking control of your life. If having a car isn't necessary - why have it?

webist

I think you will find that many folks who have a lot of money, have it because they chose not to spend it. Leasing is less expensive than a purchase generally. They are shrewd not cash poor.

Heraclitus

+1

Great thread. Lots of level heads helped make a great discussion, in spite of a few zealots who would have just as soon shot the whole thing down.

iBarna

How about this: living car free is the best way to enlarge your penis. It worked for me.

adgrant

Not being able to afford the car has little to do with it. The reason that so many luxury cars are leases it that most people who buy new luxury cars like to replace them every 2-3 years (partly to avoid paying for repairs which are very expensive for luxury imports particularly in the hign income areas such cars are common). Leasing a car allows you to drive up to the dealership three years later and just hand them the keys. It also frees you from having to worry about resale value (there are probably a lot of SUV owners who wished they had leased right now).

BTW some savings accounts are now paying 4.5% APR which is a pretty good return right now so holding cash is not such a bad idea.

crtreedude 

Pretty expensive to take that new car "hit" every time you drive out of the dealership. Most the people I know who are well off tend to buy a car cash. You can get a really good deal that way. Any way you cut it, leasing has interest charges usually. If there aren't, you are not getting the cash discount.

Usually, when negotiating, you can pick whatever method fits you life - lower interest rate - or lower price.

adgrant

Its also expensive to take an older BMW to the dealership for repair (brake job $1000, major service $800).

Luxury car dealers do not offer discounts for cash. In fact discounts for cash are normally offered as an alternative to low interest loans. Luxury car manufacturers do not typically offer heavy discounts for their cars. It damages the brand and resale value. Instead they subsidize the lease, typically by inflating thre residual value of the car. If you pay cash you miss out on these subsidies. The biggest expense of car ownership is deprecation. Leasing allows you to lock in the maximum deprecation you will pay and it will often be less than the cash buyer pays. If the car holds its value better than expected, you can buy it for the residual and make some money. If the car gets stolen or totaled, a leasee is protected by Gap insurance. If you lease a BMW (or buy), all maintainance is free for the first four years except tires. This means a leasee knows his fixed costs up front.

The only person I know who has ever paid cash for a luxury car is myself. Now I lease.

Roody

It seems like half the posts you write are aout how to buy a car. What makes you think that we care?

I, for one, don't even know the difference between buying and leasing a car. I don't need to know now, and I never will need to know. And I bet I speak for the majority on this.

You have said in other posts that you want to be carfree. Maybe it would be better if you told us about that, instead of wasting my time with all this garbage about leasing and buying cars.

crtreedude 

One last thing on the car - lease / buy.

When I have to buy a vehicle (trucks -so does that make me care free ) I send out a request for quote. Trust me - you get a lot better than any lease.

These letters go straight to the manager - no commissions are paid - and no negotiating either. They know they are competing with other dealerships too.

Most of the rich people I know do this.

You could do this with bike shops too by the way. (addressing the current audience)

rec-cyclist

My wife and I have a car, I don't ever imagine us living car free, but I love the idea. I too have an argument for financially choosing not to own a car (or multiple cars in my case). I think it was on the go by bicycle website that stated the average American spends 25% of their annual income on their automobile. 25% is just a number until you put it into context. That means for an 8 hour work day, 2 hours of your day that you work is spent just to own/operate your car. I don't spend anywhere near that myself, but I know a lot of my coworkers spend more than 25%. Just think if you went from 25% of your income to 10%, or even nothing. Then used that money to pay yourself first by depositing that money directly into a savings account. Now the first hour or two of your day you're working for yourself. Just imagine how quickly that can add up. Just a thought.