gwd

You've probably heard the screeching tires and seen the monster SUV careening toward you. Two nights ago it happened again. It looked like the thing would go into rollover while making a high speed U-turn in the middle of Conneticut Avenue a few blocks from the whitehouse. It didn't get closer than 15 feet from me so it wasn't really a problem, I had room to veer toward the curb too. This time the unexpected really happened. At the next light the driver rolled down the window and yelled an apology down on me.

She yelled that she didn't want to hurt me. I told her she had left enough room and that I was glad she didn't want to hurt me.

Then she asked me to not get in her way in the intersection so she could make the turn. So at the green light she cut across in front of me and muscled her way through the pedestrians in the crosswalk.

The apology and asking before cutting through my lane is a good sign isn't it? It was like she had some sort of awareness going on.

Pampusik

Here, in Minnesota, SUV drivers apologize for the behavior of other SUV drivers. It's weird here... but maybe that's good...

Slow Train

Don't mind me as I swing a baseball bat inches away from your head. Same attitude.

Blue Order

Bizarre behavior. "Muscling" through the pedestrians in the crosswalk? Unless they were crossing against a red light, they had the right of way. Hardly exemplary behavior on her part.

littledog

It seems to me that anyone who is driving a 4 wheeled vehicle is at all times on a mission- people to see,places to go,things to do- and any and everything is an obstacle in their path. So the fact that the driver politely told you of her intentions to cut you off was an acknowledgement that she had no desire to wantonly destroy said obstacles (you). So at least she is not an insensitive yahoo and certainly not a marauding punk or gang banger. Count your blessings. It is far worse where I ride.

Roody

I hate insincere and self-serving apologies. "Next time just run me over so I don't have to listen to your bull crap."

gwd

I forgot to explain that it is common here for cars making right hand turns into crowded crosswalks to slowly push through. No one seems to think it bad behaviour except slow train, myself and a few others. I've seen it done in front of police officers many times. Once I saw a guy in a smallish car try it and a nimble pedestrian didn't break stride. The pedestrian jumped up on the hood of the car and jumped down. When the car person yelled obscenities at the pedestrian the pedestrian just yelled back one word-"Crosswalk!". I'd like to recommend that we car free people NOT do the same, set a better example and let the pedestrians have the right of way. We also scare pedestrians when we zip by inches in front of them. If they make eye contact I try to motion to them to keep going and I ride behind them.


It would be good if we bikers always ride around pedestrians and if pedestrians learn that if they just maintain their course and speed when they cross a street that we'll either stop or go around them without interfereing. Friends tell me this unwritten rule works pretty well in the crowded cities in Asia. I feel rude when a pedestrian sees me coming and stops instead of making me adjust my course.

Spaceman Spiff

Maybe the pedestrians were walking really slowly so she tried to "nudge" them along. (lol)

I know when I'm driving, I will always let a pedestrian cross, however I expect them to walk reasonably fast, not take their sweet old time while I'm burning gas.

Roody

This reminds me of a small victory I recently experienced. I was crossing in a crosswalk when a right-turner nearly hit me. There was a cop car right behind him. I looked at the cop and yelled, "Hey go get him! I had the right of way!" Unbelievably, the cop put on his lights and took off after the cager. I started yelling and clapping, and other pedestrians in the area joined in. It was a sweet moment for the walkers!

Roody

Jeez-o-Pete.

Why the hell should they have to walk fast just because you are in a hurry? For all you know, they may already be walking as fast as they can. This is not the attitude I usually see on a carfree forum! You need to rethink this, "spaceman". And slow down dude! Or better yet, just quit "burning gas" all together.

Blue Order

It hardly matters whether people "think" it's bad behavior, or good behavior. It's illegal. Pedestrians have the right of way when they're in the crosswalk.

gwd

This isn't quite right in all states. When I lived in Virginia pedestrians had the right of way in crosswalks only to the extent that they didn't impede the movement of cars. I'm typing this from memory the law said something like "a pedestrian shouldn't enter a crosswalk if it would slow the movement of a car." So Virginia drivers can claim that the ped was in the wrong by forcing the car to slow down. This is one of many reasons why I moved from Virginia.

But, I heard a rumour that California law is more in the pedestrian's favour and have noticed that cars around here with California license plates seem to be more considerate of pedestrians. For example I've noticed several times a California car coming to a complete stop for peds in a crosswalk where the local cars seem to do the pedestrian push manuever.

Spaceman Spiff

It has nothing to do with me being in a hurry, "roody", and everything to do with common courtesy. When you see that you are holding someone up, you don't take your sweet old time, you try not to hold them up except for the least amount of time possible. It doesn't matter if they are in a car or on a bike or on roller blades. Obviously no one should be expected to run or anything, but at the very least they shouldn't dawdle.

pedex

in many places once that crosswalk light starts flashing red or "dont walk", pedestrians entering the crosswalk lose the right of way and can be ticketed, ive seen it happen

as far as cutting thru them on a bike, I learned a very neat trick from an ex messenger, I do a quick hop skid or two and let the back of the bike slide out a bit when I approaching a crosswalk full of people and I need to get thru, it tends to get their attention and freezes them for a second, this usually opens up a nice gap and I start pedaling again and go right on thru the gap

Roody

A lot of pedestrians are just as carfree as we are. They're out there for exercise, to save money and to pollute less--just like us. Show a little solidarity and give them a break.

For me, part of being carfree is getting away from that rush hour mentality: "busy...must hurry...busy...running late...you better get out of my way...I gotta rush...busy...I don't want to run you over, but I will..."

These thoughts, running through your head all the time, will literally kill a person. Chronic stress can undo all the physical benefits of exercise. I try to remember that nothing I do is so important that I can't be a few seconds late. After all, I'm not driving an ambulance or chasing a bank robber. Lack of planning on my part does not constitute a crisis on some pedestrian's part. I take being late as a lesson that I need to plan and organize better so I won't be late next time.

pedex

that may be, but in my world, most are just going from car to office or vice a versa or out getting lunch

best break I give them is doing my best not to hit them, even when they give me no choice

Roody

I'm glad you don't hit them, but you probably shouldn't scare them either. Just because you're working and they're on lunch break....Well that doesn't give you the right of way. My dad is legally blind and walks very slowly. I would probably be sad if somebody scared him like that.

noisebeam

To be clear and I think it is what you are saying: Pedestrians may not enter crosswalk when the 'don't walk' begins flashing, but if they are already in x-walk when it it starts flashing they have right of way and drivers must yield to them.
Al

pedex

What's funny is Ive never heard anybody say anything about it when it happens. Trust me, you do something stupid and people will let you know !! I think some of it is us messengers do get cut a certain amount of slack about some of the things we do, downtown we are all over the place, we are like the furniture. I think people grasp what we are doing and realize very quickly the difference tween someone who is very good handling a bike and someone who is obviously out of control. I know I get questions about the job and the moves and the bike prettymuch everyday. We want nothing more than to go where we need to go as quickly and painlessly as possible, pedestrian collisions suck, been there done that, I'd rather hit a car to be honest.

No I probably shouldnt do alot of the things I do, but downtown has its own set of rules which have to be learned by everyone including pedestrians. Its taken me years to learn some of this stuff. When you screw up either you get hurt or someone lets you know, moves that are ok go by without any complaints. There is a method and rythm to the chaos. Someone like your dad is more likely to find a guy like me trackstanding nearby motioning for cars not to run his slow butt over in the crosswalk.........some of us do pay attention to things like this too, we have a code of ethics believe it or not

pedex

correct, the signals are timed to let people walk across AND then have some time left for cars to go thru, when pedestrians walk anyway it blocks traffic, and that is illegal, the motorcycle cops here ticket people for that all the time, one of their pet peeves I guess

tecpatl4

I recently served on a jury in which we had to decide liability for an accident in an intersection. I won't go into the gory details (both parties were in cars), but it turns out that a vehicle already in the intersection when the signal changes has right of way over vehicles entering the intersection. Under ohio law a bicycle would be treated a vehicle. However, the law also says that the person with right of way may proceed CAUTIOUSLY. We the jury actually found that the person who had right of way was 40% responsible for the accident because he did not proceed cautiously, or as the judge described it "with due care". What all this means is that even if you have right of way and are involved in an accident you may be liable because you had the opportunity to prevent the accident and did not.

chephy

Yep. Unfortunately with many lights the little walk sign only appears for what seems like a split second and the hand starts flashing right away. So your only chance to cross is if you happened to be at the intersection at the exact same time as the light changes from "Do not walk" to "Walk" or if you've already waited a cycle. I sure as heck always cross against the flashing hand if I know it hasn't been flashing for too long. Usually don't impede any right-turners though. If there are no other peds, I check for right-turners before proceeding and if there are some, I move in such a way as to create no more disturbance than they would've created.

But I find that most Toronto motorists will just give the ROW to pedestrians in this situation anyway. I don't have much to complain about here; the cagers are good around here when it comes to peds in crosswalks.

I've also had pedestrians yield to me the ROW when they had a green and I had a red (at T-intersections or non-intersections at the U of T campus usually). Meaning, I come to a stop at the red light and they are starting to cross but then they see me, smile and motion me through. Running reds is not my thing, but there are a couple of places on St. George St. where not running the red seems just plain dumb (although most of the time I still stop for them... ). Especially when pedestrians are asking you to do it!

Geonz

It actually does matter what people "think is right." Safety depends a whole lot on predictability. Whatever is written in a little book somewhere has a lot less impact than what most people do.
If it's the "custom" for a car to nudge its way through, then that's what the people expect and they behave accordingly. It may not be a *good* custom, and the customs may include gratitude for those who actually wait.
Of course, everytime I'm out on the roads, I'm contributing to "what everybody does." One advantage of having a strange-looking bicycle in a fairly small town is that now the bus drivers and lots of drivers pretty much know that the long red bike stops at stop signs and red lights, and we don't play "reverse chicken" any more. It's not "what everbody does" - but I've also noticed that when I do it, sometimes the other guy at the light will do it, too.

gwd

I agree with Roody that we shouldnot scare pedestrians. But, some seem to act frightened for no reason.

If the crosswalk is crowded I slow to a walking pace and weave through if I can otherwise I stop. If it isn't crowded I aim behind the ped I'll come closest to and make sure I'm so far ahead of the nearest one going in the opposite direction that the ped doesn't have to change pace. In a nutshell since I'm more manueverable and a little bigger I try to change my course and speed so the peds don't have to.

When I saw some bike messenger competition here in DC in the late 90s I was glad to see that the messengers lost points if they hit the cardboard peds set up on the course. Well, I think they lost points for hitting them since they seemed to avoid them.

Roody

Rev. Roody's sermonette:

As somebody who used to walk a lot, I know that peds can't hear bikes coming. thus they know you're there only if they look right at you. At a crosswalk, there are a lot of things that peds have to watch for, and it's easy for them to miss a bike, even if they're practicing "due care."

My rule of thumb: If it is physically possible for a ped to cross your path, always assume that they will cross your path. In practice, this means that you usually have to give them 2 to 3 feet of space, or even more, depending on your speed. If that isn't possible, you need to slow down, and ring a bell or say "excuse me."

Remember that it is much more dangerous to walk in the city than to ride a bike in the city. All of the accident rates (injuries and fatalities; whether per mile, per trip, or per individual) point to this conclusion.

Also, I think that one major aspect of carfree living is that it enables you to slow down a bit. You lose a lot of stress if you slow down just a tad. Plan and organize your trips--that's a big key to successful carfree living, in my experience.

And do the math. If you think you'll get someplace significantly sooner by going 16 mph instead of 13 mph, for example, then check your figures. For the typical bike trip, the difference in arrival times is probably going to be less than two minutes! (BTW, I love riding fast, but that's for fun, not for utility.)

Is a bell required in your city or state? It is in mine, but I don't have one.