Indie

Um, yes. Does he really only do good things if they directly affect him and his loved ones? *******.

If the human race is killed off by climate change, it's going to be a hideously painful way to go. What it means is that changes will happen very rapidly, and we won't be able to adapt our food production, shelter, disease control, etc. fast enough to keep up. More and more people in every successive generation will die of things like starvation.

It could be argued that it's already happening in poor countries, especially those that are in parts of the world subject to extremes of climate anyways. But of course we in the developed world aren't supposed tot care about anyone outside of our own borders or maybe our own families (if the quote is any indication).

I try to be careful of my impact on the environment because the alternative is a lot of suffering for a lot of people and animals. I see it as an extension of trying to be compassionate and thoughtful to people who are around me here and now. What's the difference between them and the people of the future?

Platy

If you think they're upset now, just wait till they realize their inheritances (if any) will be mostly in the form of declining, highly mortgaged suburban real estate and 15 year old SUVs/luxury pickups.

Pedaleur

Rationally, you shouldn't. You're not really making a difference.

Altruism is a strange beast...you, others here, even myself, take pains to at least not be wasteful, and often make significant lifestyle changes in hopes of "leaving the planet better off", all the while some idiot builds a giant McMansion with space for his three vehicles and a boat in the garage.

It doesn't make sense, but I have read a lot of posts by you, Roody, and, if it helps in any way, I'm am impressed with both your dedication and resourcefulness.

So there's your answer: bikeforums bragging rights <insert appropriate smilie here>

gerv 

I would like to add to your list:
-- water and soil polluted with mercury (largely from coal burning electric generators)
-- social security unable to fund itself
-- a huge national debt that will take generations to pay off
-- a crumbling transportation infrastructure
-- an education system that is below the standard of most of the First world and not exactly the envy of many 3rd world countries (take Cuba as an example...)

gwd

There is a contradiction here, our future president Palin preaches that the war in Iraq is doing God's work. So the debt and taxes are for God. We've just had 8 years of Bible based values shoved down our throats right? Wasn't the War on Terror originally called the Crusade for Infinite Justice? Or was it a Faith Based Initiative?

There is a factual error, the most moral and decent people I know are from a Buddhist/Communist upbringing. I'm pretty sure that statistically atheists are under represented in the criminal population. Not that it has anything to do with living car free.

wernmax

I know what you're seeing...and saying.

I was an atheist, Buddhist, then Scientologist for the first 38 years of my life. Even now it seems my "fellow Christians" only follow a system of situational ethics formed of economic necessities, mostly guided by unequal weights and measures, and might is right.

Endless war is just the fastest way to transfer a Nations wealth to unscrupulous private hands, through "no-bid" contracts, so I doubt it's religion based, although that makes good propaganda.


I've only done what I can by not supporting or feeding the current machine as little as possible. Maybe leave a few more resources to the next generation by living simpler. I try live with this in mind: Just about whatever the "World", through it's various medias, tries to tell me is the "right way" to live and think, is almost always wrong.

I like this thread...lots of intelligent discourse by good hearted people.

Roody

Also, consumer debt dwarfs government debt, at least in the US. How can we falult our officials for making the same mistakes that most of us are making in our personal finances?

(OTOH, it was our officials who advised us to charge up more on our credit cards as a "solution" (lol) to crises like 9/11 and the current economic "slowdown.")

Sammiches

Endless war is just a coincidence; a feature found in any organism.

Wealth generation and transfer is best achieved in a peaceful system of unfettered trade which is then gamed and abused just before the breaking point, but no further. War for wealth transfer is a clumsy, chaotic process. If the current war was for wealth transfer the US failed to follow through on that aim because Iraq is selling it's oil on the global market at the going rate, without price breaks or incentives to the US.

I, too, have separated myself from much of the current machine, mainly because I expect more for my time and effort than government programs and various free market entities provide. Often they just don't deserve my wealth or yours.

Sammiches

A mighty observation.

We've got a batch of spendthrifts embracing Keynesian economics and one has to wonder if they only agree with Keynes because it serves to enable their rampant spending. The main apology is that as long as national debt remains static in relation to gross domestic product everything is fine. I actually don't have an immediate problem with that, but I hate the casual acceptance of this and the devil-may-care spending habits that follow, just because it suits those spending my (tax) money.

On an atomic level, I'd bet 95% of middle-class financial problems are self-inflicted.

mr00jimbo

As far as "owing" the future anything, depends on where your moral compass is.
There are people who will recycle, maybe make some efforts not to pollute as much, etc.
Then there will be the hardcore people who think it's never enough and tend to gravitate towards living like a hobbit and repeating, "You don't need _____, ____" and suggesting life should only be based on bare necessities. Not a life for me.

gerv 

But there are also people who think "How much house(or land or food) do I really need?" They then come to the conclusion that it's a lot less than the normal North American quota. Then they realize that all that extra stuff wasn't making them happy anyway...

I became a grandfather this summer and I am now thinking that I would like to have a relatively stable life for my grandson. I'll do what I can to help it along.

acroy

each of us has the obligation to be a decent person to ourselves, to our neighbor, and to be a good steward of our surroundings.
2 million laws on the books essentially trying to enforce the 10 commandments. "do unto others...." It's really pretty simple - a lot of folks get confused, frustrated, and irrational about the details.

sbhikes

Why should we bother? Haven't we learned that consumerism is not the pathway to happiness?

And you want to know the best way to starve government and the corporations? Earn very low wages and starve them of your taxes and wasteful consumer spending.

wernmax

That's what I do.

Except that it still doesn't effect them in that they have printing presses and a "National Debt" system, in our names, that they can charge their proliferate, never ending spending spree to.

Enthusiast

As a younger person I suppose in some ways I'm the future with whom you [ahem] mature adults seem to be concerning yourselves. I'll say that the personal choices of individuals do matter greatly because many of the opinions, outlooks, and actions I have taken and will take have been influenced by individual persons (most of them older, imparting their experience) as much as by society. Sure society is more omni-present, but it doesn't have the piercing impact that one good (or bad) soul can have on an individual.

Your individual actions do matter, you may not change the world, but you can better the lives of people around you and - I think - that can be enough.

patc

I don't normally encourage population growth, but can you go clone yourself a few times? We need more people like you!

Enthusiast

Haha thanks! I still have big dreams of course, being a foolish stripling and all, but I've been thinking that changing the world through impersonal means like radical political/economic revolution, etc is not for me personally. It suites my temperment to live a life where, to paraphrase Thoreau, I concentrate on being good rather than doing good.

Of course this is much easier said than done, but I figure I owe it to my own future to try. Whenever people questioned "owing the future" I always wondered if they felt disconnected from this perceived future - as if they weren't going to be a part of it themselves whether through their presence, works, environmental impact, societal relations or progeny! I do think having children creates a definite interest in the "future".

patc

I know a "foolish stripling" who started a huge national charity and advocacy group, and gets MPs to fly across the country to attend his events.