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If this happens many will go back to cars.......

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If this happens many will go back to cars.......

Old 06-07-08, 11:44 AM
  #51  
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Will we finally be rid of suits and and ties?!!!
I am entirely convinced that energy conservation will cause people to change the norms of "business attire" in the next few decades.

Of course, if nuclear power (which does not emit CO2) becomes affordable and plentiful everywhere (like it is in France) then people may see no reason to turn down the A/C.

I'm not really convinced that France has NOT already found just what the rest of the world needs as a replacement for coal plants. (let me guess... flame war here we come!)
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Old 06-07-08, 12:06 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by donnamb View Post
Once upon a time in your part of Tennessee, it was acceptable for people to be sweaty. I have a feeling that at some point in the next several years, it will become acceptable once again.
Very true, indeed. That said, I feel sorry for older folk's who can't deal with heat very well at all.
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Old 06-07-08, 12:16 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by cerewa View Post
Of course, if nuclear power (which does not emit CO2) becomes affordable and plentiful everywhere (like it is in France) then people may see no reason to turn down the A/C.

I'm not really convinced that France has NOT already found just what the rest of the world needs as a replacement for coal plants. (let me guess... flame war here we come!)
No flames, just facts. At the moment the nuclear industry emits CO2 from all the fossil fueled machines that mine and process and transport the uranium and build the nuclear reactors and transmission lines and tear them down and dispose of the waste etc. Whether it will be a viable power source without that oil input remains to be seen.
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Old 06-07-08, 12:17 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by mr00jimbo View Post
If you want oil to rise then you're ****ing nuts.
Well, I am long a lot of dec 08 oil and am thinking of going even longer (even at these levels), so I do want oil to go up. I guess I am ****ing nuts, but I had a pretty good day Friday.

PS. While depressing the economy, high oil prices wil eventually drive technological innovation.
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Old 06-07-08, 12:20 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
No flames, just facts. At the moment the nuclear industry emits CO2 from all the fossil fueled machines that mine and process and transport the uranium and build the nuclear reactors and transmission lines and tear them down and dispose of the waste etc. Whether it will be a viable power source without that oil input remains to be seen.
That's plain wrong - the energy output of per unit weight of enriched uranium is way, way bigger than all of the energy expenditures on mining and enrichment. We are talking times, not percent here.
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Old 06-07-08, 12:20 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Tightwad View Post
Very true, indeed. That said, I feel sorry for older folk's who can't deal with heat very well at all.
How did they deal in the past? They lived in heat all their lives and adapted to it, They were thinner, so they didn't retain heat. They sat in the basement or in the breeze a lot. They didn't live in massive concrete ovens.
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Old 06-07-08, 12:25 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by qw1a View Post
That's plain wrong - the energy output of per unit weight of enriched uranium is way, way bigger than all of the energy expenditures on mining and enrichment. We are talking times, not percent here.
I wasn't arguing that, just the claim it emits no CO2. When all production and decommissioning is done by electrically powered machines it will be a carbon neutral industry.

And more expensive.
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Old 06-07-08, 12:30 PM
  #58  
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Whether it will be a viable power source without that oil input remains to be seen.
Fair enough. I suspect nuclear is still no more fossil-fuel dependent than the cleanest electrical-generation facilities known to humankind, keeping in mind the energy density of fission-fuel compared to the alternatives.

Nuclear power seems about as close to carbon-neutral as riding a steel bicycle with synthetic rubber tires.
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Old 06-07-08, 12:31 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
I wasn't arguing that, just the claim it emits no CO2. When all production and decommissioning is done by electrically powered machines it will be a carbon neutral industry.

And more expensive.
Everything will be more expensive, but with oil at 150 even if a kilowatt is going to cost double, it's still very reasonable. And, per watt emitted, i suspect that "nucular" energy emits far less carbon.

PS. I am doing my reimbursements and noticed that, apparently, my firm purchases carbon offsets for all employee travel. Considering the cost of a business class ticket, extra 50 bucks (that's what carbon offset for a flight to london costs) is small change.
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Old 06-07-08, 02:33 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by donnamb View Post
Once upon a time in your part of Tennessee, it was acceptable for people to be sweaty. I have a feeling that at some point in the next several years, it will become acceptable once again.
That's true and those who grew up around here without air conditioning don't seem to be bothered by heat. However, my body simply doesn't want to function in the summer. I can stand it up to around 85 degrees and then I start to become miserable. I am definitely a cold weather person; I have no problem riding to work when it's 11 degrees outside. That doesn't bother me in the least, and I'm in heaven when it's in the 30s or 40s outside. I've been working in warehouses for a few years now so you would think I'd start to get used to it, but I haven't. I've tried to use air conditioning as little as possible hoping I would adapt, but this level of heat is just not adaptable for me. And this is just June! I can't imagine what August will be like this year!
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Old 06-07-08, 05:09 PM
  #61  
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I think the most telling aspect of the oil crisis is the absolute silence from the Bush administration. Maybe because the whole master plan was to drive oil up for all is Texas buddies with this war in Iraq?

If the President instituted some emergency measures like an emergency 55 mph speed limit, and gas rationing, then maybe that would "maybe" drive home the crisis we are in.

Hell, most of the guys I work with think this is just a blip on the radar screen. One just bought a Dodge Powerwagon, the other a Chevy Tahoe.....? Ignorance is bliss...
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Old 06-08-08, 04:16 AM
  #62  
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Wow! I hope the writers of the "South Park" cartoon get to read this forum. This was under the topic of living car free. I thought I was signing on to a cyclist forum.

The World is changing. The price of oil is going up. Get over it.
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Old 06-08-08, 04:18 AM
  #63  
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For me is more about the cost of the car itself (car+insurance+maintenance+repairs+etc) than the gas.
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Old 06-08-08, 05:24 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by gascostalot View Post
Will we finally be rid of suits and and ties?!!!
Originally Posted by cerewa View Post
I am entirely convinced that energy conservation will cause people to change the norms of "business attire" in the next few decades.
I'd be willing to guess that not many of the car free types who depend on bicycling all year to a job, wear suit and tie business attire, though there may be an exception or two.
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Old 06-08-08, 10:17 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Tightwad View Post
Very true, indeed. That said, I feel sorry for older folk's who can't deal with heat very well at all.
Originally Posted by cooker View Post
How did they deal in the past? They lived in heat all their lives and adapted to it, They were thinner, so they didn't retain heat. They sat in the basement or in the breeze a lot. They didn't live in massive concrete ovens.
Your knowledge of history needs a little more work ,mate. Better do little homework.
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Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
Aluminum: barely a hundred, which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?
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Old 06-08-08, 12:35 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Tightwad View Post
Your knowledge of history needs a little more work ,mate. Better do little homework.
So no-one lived in Tennessee before air conditioning? Funny, I can't find that in the history books.
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Old 06-08-08, 03:27 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by qw1a View Post
Well, I am long a lot of dec 08 oil and am thinking of going even longer (even at these levels), so I do want oil to go up. I guess I am ****ing nuts, but I had a pretty good day Friday.

PS. While depressing the economy, high oil prices wil eventually drive technological innovation.
+1 - heavily invested in I-Shares ticker OIL. Friday was very very nice.
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Old 06-08-08, 05:38 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
So no-one lived in Tennessee before air conditioning? Funny, I can't find that in the history books.
Old saying: "Sherman did not conquer the South, Lenox Air Conditioners did".
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Old 06-08-08, 05:46 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
How did they deal in the past? They lived in heat all their lives and adapted to it, They were thinner, so they didn't retain heat. They sat in the basement or in the breeze a lot. They didn't live in massive concrete ovens.
Let's not forget that they had a tendency to die a lot younger, too.
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Old 06-08-08, 05:52 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by AllenG View Post
Old saying: "Sherman did not conquer the South, Lenox Air Conditioners did".

Japanese researchers in the 1930s discovered that pureblood Japanese born in the tropics had something like twice the number of sweat glands per square inch of skin as those born in Japan who then moved to the tropics as adults. So spending your infancy in heat has lifelong implications for your ability to tolerate heat. Sports physiologists have shown people of any age can acclimate to hot weather and greatly increase their tolerance of it if they exercise in the heat - it takes 5-21 days to adjust. People who live in airconditioned homes and cars their entire life aren't going to be able to tolerate unexpected heat waves the way people with live with it all the time can. They don't have the permanent increase in the number of sweat glands and they don't have the two or three weeks to adapt. Plus modern cities are concrete heat islands. Much hotter than sitting on a rural veranda sipping a mint julip.
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Old 06-08-08, 06:00 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by 123Roadie01 View Post
Wow! I hope the writers of the "South Park" cartoon get to read this forum. This was under the topic of living car free. I thought I was signing on to a cyclist forum.

The World is changing. The price of oil is going up. Get over it.
I get a bit pissy over this forum's tendency to stray away from strictly bike-centric threads myself, but I've learned to appreciate it a little more recently; threads like this put the whole car-free thing in a larger, more compelling context. (And I don't doubt that almost every person who posts here has a sincere love of bikes, BTW, even though several of them talk about oil a lot more than they talk about hauling groceries.) If you want to talk bikes and nothing but bikes, I suggest the utility forum, which I personally often turn to for information.
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Old 06-08-08, 08:58 PM
  #72  
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3.99/gallon here and I have been noticing a significant amount of 2 wheel vehicles in general. Either bicycle or motorcycle/scooter. I think attitudes are finally shifting here in the states. The more people realize the cost savings and the efficiency of these types of vehicle, the more the infrastructure will adapt in a positive way.

I'm still waiting to see how the job situation goes in the next month or two. Either the car is being sold and the money invested or it gets sold/traded for a motorcycle/scooter to complement the bicycle.
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Old 06-09-08, 01:49 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
How did they deal in the past? They lived in heat all their lives and adapted to it, They were thinner, so they didn't retain heat. They sat in the basement or in the breeze a lot. They didn't live in massive concrete ovens.
Heat and cold are problems for the elderly because as we get older our bodies lose some of the sensitivity to heat and cold - what this means is that some elderly people literally are not aware that they are dangerously cold or too hot, then they die.

"... massive concrete ovens." Extra thermal mass in the form of concrete is actually a really good thing, especially when combined with insulation on the outside. If the thermal-mass of a building is high enough then the building can passively (no energy required) average-out the day and night time temperature swings.

Buildings with low thermal mass, that are well insulated, can also do well, if it were not for those pesky things called doors and (opening) windows. Doors and windows are the technological equivalent of rolling a large stone in front of a cave entrance.

Usually there are just a few weeks in the summer in Portland when temperatures can head up to or go over 100 degrees F. I can get by quite comfortably with a single box fan placed in the window at the end of the hall-way on the second floor. At the end of the day when temperatures fall, I open the ground floor windows a few inches and the fan at the end of the second floor hallway is set to blow the hot air out of the house and draw cooler air in from outside through the ground floor windows.

I leave the fan on all night, and usually in the morning the whole house is pretty cool. Then all the windows get closed for the day. There is a two to three hour time lag between the outdoor temperature high and the indoor temperature high, so it is only late in the afternoon / early evening that it might get too hot. That time lag would be much greater if the house had greater thermal mass, i.e. was made of concrete. The addition of insulation on the outside would reduce energy requirements, in some climates, close to zero - a box fan compared to the compressor on an air conditioning system or heat pump, are at opposite ends of the spectrum.

If there is a lot of concrete available, i would say "yes please".
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Old 06-09-08, 02:00 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by HoustonB View Post
"... massive concrete ovens." Extra thermal mass in the form of concrete is actually a really good thing, especially when combined with insulation on the outside. If the thermal-mass of a building is high enough then the building can passively (no energy required) average-out the day and night time temperature swings.
That's a good point, but what about the heat island effect? Doesn't the urban temperature tend to run a few degrees higher than rural?
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Old 06-09-08, 02:16 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
... Plus modern cities are concrete heat islands. Much hotter than sitting on a rural veranda sipping a mint julip.
I am guessing you just do not like concrete Tall buildings cast long shadows and the canyons of New York are actually a positive in the fight against over heating - if it were not for the mass of air conditioning, all those damned cars and the absence of passive measures to reflect the sunlight from just the tops of the buildings, using the simplest of technology - mirrors. And those mirrors would not even need to be like the more technologically challenging parabolic mirrors used in solar concentrators. Plain cheap and cheerful flat mirrors are all that is needed.

Walk into a gully or narrow gorge on a hot day and the temperature drop is usually quite dramatic. It is not caused by the presence of a beautiful babbling brook, but by the absence of direct sunlight for the majority of the day because of the shadow from high sides that are in close proximity.

I am expecting mirrors and smart-windows to play a bigger role in general in the future.
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