Any Car-Free People who don't believe global warming is man caused?
09-12-08, 09:32 PM
#26
Banned.
++1
Global "climate change" will be used as a money grab to subsidize the wealthy and powerful so they can control the production and use of energy. The Cap-and-Trade swindle will bilk trillions from the hard working people of this country and from around the world in the form of higher energy prices. It is actually Global Tyranny and it will be used to control your life. It will be used to dictate what kind of vehicle you use for transport, what kind of light bulbs you can use, how you heat/cool you home and the temperature allowed, when you can plug-in your PHV, and the list will grow longer. There is even a UN bureaucrat "suggesting" that we consume less beef so we can reduce the number of cattle because they contribute to global climate change. I can't wait to hear Sen. Harry Reid say, "Cow farts are killing us". What really sickens me is when politicians, business leaders and all those wanting approval, bow at the alter of global climate change.
Global "climate change" will be used as a money grab to subsidize the wealthy and powerful so they can control the production and use of energy. The Cap-and-Trade swindle will bilk trillions from the hard working people of this country and from around the world in the form of higher energy prices. It is actually Global Tyranny and it will be used to control your life. It will be used to dictate what kind of vehicle you use for transport, what kind of light bulbs you can use, how you heat/cool you home and the temperature allowed, when you can plug-in your PHV, and the list will grow longer. There is even a UN bureaucrat "suggesting" that we consume less beef so we can reduce the number of cattle because they contribute to global climate change. I can't wait to hear Sen. Harry Reid say, "Cow farts are killing us". What really sickens me is when politicians, business leaders and all those wanting approval, bow at the alter of global climate change.
Dictating what you eat is easy under "communitarian law", you're already told to wear your seat belt. Good idea? Sure. Something you can direct a free man in a free country to do? No.
https://www.newswithviews.com/Raapana/niki.htm
The "carbon unit" contracts are being readied on the exchanges.
Last edited by wernmax; 09-12-08 at 09:36 PM.
09-13-08, 01:22 AM
#27
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09-13-08, 01:45 AM
#28
some new kind of kick
09-13-08, 09:23 AM
#29
In the wind
++1
Global "climate change" will be used as a money grab to subsidize the wealthy and powerful so they can control the production and use of energy. The Cap-and-Trade swindle will bilk trillions from the hard working people of this country and from around the world in the form of higher energy prices. It is actually Global Tyranny and it will be used to control your life. It will be used to dictate what kind of vehicle you use for transport, what kind of light bulbs you can use, how you heat/cool you home and the temperature allowed, when you can plug-in your PHV, and the list will grow longer. There is even a UN bureaucrat "suggesting" that we consume less beef so we can reduce the number of cattle because they contribute to global climate change. I can't wait to hear Sen. Harry Reid say, "Cow farts are killing us". What really sickens me is when politicians, business leaders and all those wanting approval, bow at the alter of global climate change.
Also, I suggest anyone who thinks that skeptics of man-made global climate change are stupid, to read "The Deniers" by Lawrence Solomon. Another good read is "Climate Confusion" by Roy W. Spencer.
Global "climate change" will be used as a money grab to subsidize the wealthy and powerful so they can control the production and use of energy. The Cap-and-Trade swindle will bilk trillions from the hard working people of this country and from around the world in the form of higher energy prices. It is actually Global Tyranny and it will be used to control your life. It will be used to dictate what kind of vehicle you use for transport, what kind of light bulbs you can use, how you heat/cool you home and the temperature allowed, when you can plug-in your PHV, and the list will grow longer. There is even a UN bureaucrat "suggesting" that we consume less beef so we can reduce the number of cattle because they contribute to global climate change. I can't wait to hear Sen. Harry Reid say, "Cow farts are killing us". What really sickens me is when politicians, business leaders and all those wanting approval, bow at the alter of global climate change.
Also, I suggest anyone who thinks that skeptics of man-made global climate change are stupid, to read "The Deniers" by Lawrence Solomon. Another good read is "Climate Confusion" by Roy W. Spencer.
My comment regarding skeptics being ignorant or stupid was directed at those who choose to regurgitate the views of the 'deniers', those few, cynical scientists who advance alternative theories based on cherry-picked evidence. These people are following a well-worn script previously followed by the tobacco and chemical industries. The result is that affected industries get to keep doing business as usual for a while until even the densest of the dittoheads can see that they are lying.
09-13-08, 09:26 AM
#30
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I live in oil and gas country and the last solid bastion of GW denial and sceptics (Louisiana and Texas). Ironic, isn't it, that we are now a bowling alley of hurricanes and tornados on GW steroids and the Mecca of oil and gas (Houston) just got nailed by Ike this morning.
09-13-08, 09:34 AM
#31
In the wind
I'm not car free at the moment, but I've been car-free or car-lite most of my life ... and I don't believe in global warming. Weather is cyclic. It gets hot, it gets cold, then it gets hot again. Just like the temperature change during a 24 hour span, just like the changing of the seasons through the course of the year, so is the big weather picture.
). The problem you need to appreciate is how the amplitude and frequency of the temperature cycle can affect us, as well as how it responds to the effects of carbon loading. That is what the debate is about.
09-13-08, 10:22 AM
#33
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You are correct, weather is cyclic. The problem is that weather and climate are not same thing. Even when the arctic ice cap has melted, it will still be cold in January and warm in August (at least in Edmonton). The problem you need to appreciate is how the amplitude and frequency of the temperature cycle can affect us, as well as how it responds to the effects of carbon loading. That is what the debate is about.
). The problem you need to appreciate is how the amplitude and frequency of the temperature cycle can affect us, as well as how it responds to the effects of carbon loading. That is what the debate is about.Anyone here know when the little ice age was? Hint - it was not that long ago.
09-13-08, 11:01 AM
#34
In the wind
Thanks for noting my sig I agree it is apropos. If you had discussed global warming with me eight years ago, you would have had difficulty distinguishing my stance from gosmsgo or the other 'skeptics'. I work for the oil industry and live in the middle of cattle country, I have lots of reasons to want to reject the whole global warming thing.
But I changed my mind, based on observation and study. Part of my job involves tracking sea ice in the arctic ocean. It might surprise you to know that the same companies that are funding the anti-global warming institutes are also currently doing engineering studies to support drilling in offshore areas that are expected to be ice-free for the first time in thousands of years.
I agree it is apropos. If you had discussed global warming with me eight years ago, you would have had difficulty distinguishing my stance from gosmsgo or the other 'skeptics'. I work for the oil industry and live in the middle of cattle country, I have lots of reasons to want to reject the whole global warming thing.But I changed my mind, based on observation and study. Part of my job involves tracking sea ice in the arctic ocean. It might surprise you to know that the same companies that are funding the anti-global warming institutes are also currently doing engineering studies to support drilling in offshore areas that are expected to be ice-free for the first time in thousands of years.
09-13-08, 11:47 AM
#35
In the right lane
I live in oil and gas country and the last solid bastion of GW denial and sceptics (Louisiana and Texas). Ironic, isn't it, that we are now a bowling alley of hurricanes and tornados on GW steroids and the Mecca of oil and gas (Houston) just got nailed by Ike this morning.
Or maybe I'm just imagining all this...
09-13-08, 12:04 PM
#36
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But I changed my mind, based on observation and study. Part of my job involves tracking sea ice in the arctic ocean. It might surprise you to know that the same companies that are funding the anti-global warming institutes are also currently doing engineering studies to support drilling in offshore areas that are expected to be ice-free for the first time in thousands of years.
The real emergency is the threat to personal freedom and liberty that global climate change hysteria and propaganda presents to all hard working people in the US and around the world.
09-13-08, 12:47 PM
#37
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https://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com...r-times-ahead/
If you wish to discuss "ways that fascists attempt to control ignorant masses", that's an entirely different subject, and one not related to any particular condition of weather.
~
09-13-08, 01:23 PM
#38
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I'm surprised to see any anthropogenic global warming skeptics here. I'd thought it was basically considered heresy to question the majority view on that topic these days. Although it's allegedly been debunked six ways to Sunday, I thought this video https://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...arming_Swindle was interesting, because it has interviews with some of the actual scientists who are questioning the theory. I often hear of these renegade researchers allegedly spouting nonsnese, but never actually hear the argument from their own mouths.
One of the more interesting theories I've come across, is that the world's oceans are actually being warmed by increased volcanic activity on the ocean floor (think 'black smokers' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_smokers )...an area that's expensive and difficult for us to monitor easily (at least compared to volcanos on land). As to what would be causing the increased volcanic activity, who knows, but it is an interesting idea.
One of the more interesting theories I've come across, is that the world's oceans are actually being warmed by increased volcanic activity on the ocean floor (think 'black smokers' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_smokers )...an area that's expensive and difficult for us to monitor easily (at least compared to volcanos on land). As to what would be causing the increased volcanic activity, who knows, but it is an interesting idea.
09-13-08, 02:25 PM
#39
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+1000000
I can't believe that people still don't get it. It took a few environmental studies classes, and few geology classes, but I see now that there is absolutely no intelligible way to deny it. In fact the only thing that is still up in the air is how bad is it gonna get, and how fast it's gonna happen, and as we learn more, it becomes increasingly likely that the speed and magnitude of the change will be far greater than even the most liberal, green, radical, climate scientist would have guessed five years ago.
I can't believe that people still don't get it. It took a few environmental studies classes, and few geology classes, but I see now that there is absolutely no intelligible way to deny it. In fact the only thing that is still up in the air is how bad is it gonna get, and how fast it's gonna happen, and as we learn more, it becomes increasingly likely that the speed and magnitude of the change will be far greater than even the most liberal, green, radical, climate scientist would have guessed five years ago.
09-13-08, 02:35 PM
#40
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One of the more interesting theories I've come across, is that the world's oceans are actually being warmed by increased volcanic activity on the ocean floor (think 'black smokers' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_smokers )...an area that's expensive and difficult for us to monitor easily (at least compared to volcanos on land). As to what would be causing the increased volcanic activity, who knows, but it is an interesting idea.[/QUOTE]
I'm no expert, and I wasn't able to watch the video you posted (linked didn't work) but .....There's no way. The this here is that many of earths natural cycles can have profound effects on the climate, however, changes in overall volcanic activity (i.e. mid ocean spreading ridges) happen (as to almost all other earth cycles) on massive hundred thousand year - million year cycles. The times scales of natural changer are HUGE. So although it's possible that such an increase in tectonic activity could cause climate change (in fact has in the past), the effect would slow if if it was large. Furthermore, tectonic/volcanic activity is on the whole diminishing as time goes on (billions of years), these processes are powered the decay of radioactive elements inside the earth, and as time passes the amount of these grows less and less, and less and less energy is released.
Anyways, the big end all proof of climate change being human induced is simply the time scale. Although the earth can naturally reach 'tipping points' where things will change very quickly, that 'very quickly' in NOTHING compared to the speed at which we are causing change. Of course the earth will eventually sort itself out, but not for thousands of years.
I'm no expert, and I wasn't able to watch the video you posted (linked didn't work) but .....There's no way. The this here is that many of earths natural cycles can have profound effects on the climate, however, changes in overall volcanic activity (i.e. mid ocean spreading ridges) happen (as to almost all other earth cycles) on massive hundred thousand year - million year cycles. The times scales of natural changer are HUGE. So although it's possible that such an increase in tectonic activity could cause climate change (in fact has in the past), the effect would slow if if it was large. Furthermore, tectonic/volcanic activity is on the whole diminishing as time goes on (billions of years), these processes are powered the decay of radioactive elements inside the earth, and as time passes the amount of these grows less and less, and less and less energy is released.
Anyways, the big end all proof of climate change being human induced is simply the time scale. Although the earth can naturally reach 'tipping points' where things will change very quickly, that 'very quickly' in NOTHING compared to the speed at which we are causing change. Of course the earth will eventually sort itself out, but not for thousands of years.
09-13-08, 03:08 PM
#41
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The amusing (or tragic) part is how people continue to be surprised by capitalism working the way it was designed to. We've worshiped this economic system for more than 100 years, and we continue to wonder why we continue to be taken advantage of. The bedrock of our country rests upon the principles of large corporations amassing unimaginable wealth by consuming resources and creating dependencies in local and foreign populations. This is who we are. This is what we do. This is our "way of life"; the one the Administration tells us "the enemy" wants to take away from us. Meanwhile, other countries invest in things like public transportation and universal healthcare. But we've been trained like dogs to bark at "socialism", to hiss at "shared risk". So why do we keep complaining when the idols we've erected keep throwing us to the wolves? This is the Free Market at work. This is God Bless America!
Sit down the average American, and he or she will tell you he doesn't like high gas, or she doesn't want big government, or that he wants to be made healthy when he's sick. But that same American will turn around and mock the French for their "tiny cars", the Germans for their "high taxes", the British for their "socialized medicine". And then she'll promptly vote into office people with decade-long ties to the auto industry, the oil industry, the military. She'll hate the gays if you tell her to, and the Mexicans too. He'll scoff at renewable energy until the energy industry decides otherwise, whereupon the media will run enough commercials to change his mind. And then when things don't work out for him, he'll blame China, as he's been told to do. And nothing will change. Because nothing was ever supposed to change. I don't expect regular people to understand this--if they did, capitalism wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is. But it's tragic nonetheless.
Sit down the average American, and he or she will tell you he doesn't like high gas, or she doesn't want big government, or that he wants to be made healthy when he's sick. But that same American will turn around and mock the French for their "tiny cars", the Germans for their "high taxes", the British for their "socialized medicine". And then she'll promptly vote into office people with decade-long ties to the auto industry, the oil industry, the military. She'll hate the gays if you tell her to, and the Mexicans too. He'll scoff at renewable energy until the energy industry decides otherwise, whereupon the media will run enough commercials to change his mind. And then when things don't work out for him, he'll blame China, as he's been told to do. And nothing will change. Because nothing was ever supposed to change. I don't expect regular people to understand this--if they did, capitalism wouldn't be nearly as successful as it is. But it's tragic nonetheless.
09-13-08, 03:13 PM
#42
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By the way, we should actually be more concerned with the effect that all this carbon we are unsequestering is having on the oceans. They are measurably more acidic now because the ocean is a carbon sink. Too acidic and creatures who secrete calcium carbonate shells will not be able to do so and will die. We depend on many of these creatures for food.
Once the food chain collapses it won't matter if it's hotter or cooler.
Once the food chain collapses it won't matter if it's hotter or cooler.
09-13-08, 04:23 PM
#43
Banned.
I hope I don't come across as too cynical in my posts, but I have a certain amount of frustration listening to so many people who may be concerned about all this climate stuff, but they don't change anything in their lives that could "help".
I live a pretty simple life, mostly for Biblical reasons that just feel right to me. I admit I'm single and childless, so this works for me, but many of the problems we see in the world at large, are caused by our own desires (multiplied by the millions of people wanting things) maybe instilled by genius advertising campaigns. The "Good Life"...the "American Dream".
Since 1997, I've been car free, live in a 450 sqft, off the grid, solar powered house. I have no insurance, no payments (no debt), no mailbox, no lawn, no vacations, and use 160 gallons of water a month.
I tend to get cranky when my jet setting "leaders", or people with three or four 8,000 sqft houses, jetting around on their world vacations, living opulent life styles, complain about climate changes. Not saying that describes any of you, as you may be living even simpler than me. Just a generalization.
Whether it's getting hotter, or colder, I can agree with pretty much what all of you say here. But what can you do about it? Only by getting millions of people to voluntarily change their lifestyles, often to what many of them see as for the worse, will things change. Joe Average is pretty expedient and shortsighted in the way he solves problems, so we may not like his solutions to what you may perceive as a grave "problem." I just try to inform you that if "Government" gets involved, they will "game" the solution to your detriment.
Besides, near as I can tell, most of the populace is in for a bit of a downward adjustment in their lifestyles, soon to be forced on them by economic necessity.
I live a pretty simple life, mostly for Biblical reasons that just feel right to me. I admit I'm single and childless, so this works for me, but many of the problems we see in the world at large, are caused by our own desires (multiplied by the millions of people wanting things) maybe instilled by genius advertising campaigns. The "Good Life"...the "American Dream".
Since 1997, I've been car free, live in a 450 sqft, off the grid, solar powered house. I have no insurance, no payments (no debt), no mailbox, no lawn, no vacations, and use 160 gallons of water a month.
I tend to get cranky when my jet setting "leaders", or people with three or four 8,000 sqft houses, jetting around on their world vacations, living opulent life styles, complain about climate changes. Not saying that describes any of you, as you may be living even simpler than me. Just a generalization.
Whether it's getting hotter, or colder, I can agree with pretty much what all of you say here. But what can you do about it? Only by getting millions of people to voluntarily change their lifestyles, often to what many of them see as for the worse, will things change. Joe Average is pretty expedient and shortsighted in the way he solves problems, so we may not like his solutions to what you may perceive as a grave "problem." I just try to inform you that if "Government" gets involved, they will "game" the solution to your detriment.
Besides, near as I can tell, most of the populace is in for a bit of a downward adjustment in their lifestyles, soon to be forced on them by economic necessity.
Last edited by wernmax; 09-13-08 at 04:29 PM.
09-13-08, 04:44 PM
#44
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hello;
for the record i do believe that global warming is caused by man but it does'nt make any difference who caused it, we're going to pay for it. there's a buddhist story about a man that had been shot by an arrow. before being treated though he demanded to know the origin of the arrow, the character of the shooter, the tribe that had sent him and all manner of details. before the information could be had he died. that seems to be the situation we find ourselves in. we are arguing about who/what's to blame and delaying efforts to solve the problem.
for the record i do believe that global warming is caused by man but it does'nt make any difference who caused it, we're going to pay for it. there's a buddhist story about a man that had been shot by an arrow. before being treated though he demanded to know the origin of the arrow, the character of the shooter, the tribe that had sent him and all manner of details. before the information could be had he died. that seems to be the situation we find ourselves in. we are arguing about who/what's to blame and delaying efforts to solve the problem.
09-13-08, 09:25 PM
#45
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Gos --
There is absolute consensus that we are in a cooling period that may last up to 10 more years. No climate scientist has denied it and in fact, you can read about it in many different science journals. But if your trend is already absurdly high, and only drops a little bit, do you really consider that cooling? Especially when the overall trend is still going up?
So the answer to your question in no way invalidates global warming.
Global warming is another example of the right-wing anti-intellectuals ganging up on science again with FUD. The process basically goes like this:
Discover idea that will prevent large sums of money being made
create right-wing think tanks containing people with fancy degrees that may not have anything to do with the topic at hand
publish and publish some more so you can show how mainstream you are
This has been going on for decades. It happened (still happening) with evolution, women's birth control, abortion, worker's health codes and pesticides.
There is absolute consensus that we are in a cooling period that may last up to 10 more years. No climate scientist has denied it and in fact, you can read about it in many different science journals. But if your trend is already absurdly high, and only drops a little bit, do you really consider that cooling? Especially when the overall trend is still going up?
So the answer to your question in no way invalidates global warming.
Global warming is another example of the right-wing anti-intellectuals ganging up on science again with FUD. The process basically goes like this:
Discover idea that will prevent large sums of money being made
create right-wing think tanks containing people with fancy degrees that may not have anything to do with the topic at hand
publish and publish some more so you can show how mainstream you are
This has been going on for decades. It happened (still happening) with evolution, women's birth control, abortion, worker's health codes and pesticides.
09-14-08, 12:31 AM
#46
bragi
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++1
Global "climate change" will be used as a money grab to subsidize the wealthy and powerful so they can control the production and use of energy. The Cap-and-Trade swindle will bilk trillions from the hard working people of this country and from around the world in the form of higher energy prices. It is actually Global Tyranny and it will be used to control your life. It will be used to dictate what kind of vehicle you use for transport, what kind of light bulbs you can use, how you heat/cool you home and the temperature allowed, when you can plug-in your PHV, and the list will grow longer. There is even a UN bureaucrat "suggesting" that we consume less beef so we can reduce the number of cattle because they contribute to global climate change. I can't wait to hear Sen. Harry Reid say, "Cow farts are killing us". What really sickens me is when politicians, business leaders and all those wanting approval, bow at the alter of global climate change.
Also, I suggest anyone who thinks that skeptics of man-made global climate change are stupid, to read "The Deniers" by Lawrence Solomon. Another good read is "Climate Confusion" by Roy W. Spencer.
Global "climate change" will be used as a money grab to subsidize the wealthy and powerful so they can control the production and use of energy. The Cap-and-Trade swindle will bilk trillions from the hard working people of this country and from around the world in the form of higher energy prices. It is actually Global Tyranny and it will be used to control your life. It will be used to dictate what kind of vehicle you use for transport, what kind of light bulbs you can use, how you heat/cool you home and the temperature allowed, when you can plug-in your PHV, and the list will grow longer. There is even a UN bureaucrat "suggesting" that we consume less beef so we can reduce the number of cattle because they contribute to global climate change. I can't wait to hear Sen. Harry Reid say, "Cow farts are killing us". What really sickens me is when politicians, business leaders and all those wanting approval, bow at the alter of global climate change.
Also, I suggest anyone who thinks that skeptics of man-made global climate change are stupid, to read "The Deniers" by Lawrence Solomon. Another good read is "Climate Confusion" by Roy W. Spencer.
Last edited by bragi; 09-14-08 at 12:38 AM.
09-14-08, 07:13 AM
#47
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09-14-08, 09:13 AM
#48
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One, of course humans are adding to the climate change, just look at the climate trend (not weather, climate). Two, gas is still underpriced by a huge amount. If the gas were taxed to pay for roads and repair, pollution, deaths and injuries, water pollution, etc., gas would cost a lot more -capitalism doesn't work well for us when some people get special treatment. Three, global climate change is not the only problem, we have all been living beyond our resources for quite some time now. Eventually, if we keep (and we will) treating the planet as if we are not part of the whole, then things will get bad for humans as it already has for many thousands of species of animals and plants. We are using up resources faster than they can be replaced, it isn't rocket science.
09-14-08, 10:04 AM
#49
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Ever wonder why so many people are in denial about global climate change? Could it be because they would have to make changes and take some responsibilty?
09-14-08, 10:26 AM
#50
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Okay, I just don't get it. For those of you that don't believe global warming is man made, which of the following don't you understand?
1. Atmospheric CO2 concentration correlates strongly to the average temperature of the plantet.
2. Humans are pumping tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.
Seriously, which is it? #1 or #2?
1. Atmospheric CO2 concentration correlates strongly to the average temperature of the plantet.
2. Humans are pumping tons of CO2 into the atmosphere.
Seriously, which is it? #1 or #2?
