Elkhound

Texas, IMHO, has been more trouble than it has been worth. When the Lone Star Republic petitoined to join the Union, Congress should have said "No, thanks!" and kept it as a buffer state between us and Mexico; alternatively, when TX seceded, the Federal government should have said, "Don't let the door hit your butt on the way out!"

grayloon

That's saying something coming for a W. Virginian. Thanks for trying to make the discussion your personal opinion piece and coming off as an ass.

Elkhound

If we are not allowed to express our opinions, what then is the purpose of the boards?

And I may live in WV, but I was neither born nor raised here.

grayloon

Thank you for your non-contribution on behalf of 24 million Americans who live in Texas.

dynodonn 

After watching that video, there's no way I'd even consider sitting in my SUV waiting in that line. Even in '73, I wouldn't have waited in a line a minute fraction of that size, resorting to my trusty two wheel ride as much as possible.

Wanderer

One of the truly amazing things here, is that many had their brake lights on, blocks from the station. They were actually idling in gear, waiting to go nowhere.

Just wasting the gas they already had.

I really like my bike for local stuff and errands. Just about anything under 3 miles one way, can be done quicker on a bike! Amazing.

Foofy

Wow, that sucks. As someone else said, if I had to wait in a line like that for gas I'd say "f#$% it" and go get on the bike. I'm not trying to come off as being holier than thou, but when problems like this come about, one of the things people can do is use adaptive strategies.

There's still some problems though. Some simple don't have much of an option when a gas shortage comes about, and thus have no choice but to wait in line. If you live in a suburb way away from everything, are physically out of shape and/or disabled, it simply isn't any help to tell such people to "ride a bike". Car pooling is an option, but even then there can be problems. In the US, many aren't able to car pool because of the differences in peoples schedules. And so many, if not most, of the jobs in this country are terrible at working around peoples schedules, even for something as beneficial as car pooling.Getting out of our energy and transportation problems here in the US isn't going to be quick or easy.

We fit and adaptable bikers can be all like "meh, whatever. I hardly use my car anyways", but the vast majority of the nation doesn't have that mindset. And getting used to riding everywhere, especially for getting groceries and shopping, is a HUGE change for people. When I started riding and commuting by bike earlier this year in the spring, it took me some time to adapt to riding on all the busy roads. I wasn't confident, and would continually look for sidewalks or even grassed areas where I could avoid the roads. It takes time and practice to gain the skill and confidence to ride your bike everyday, regardless of the weather, regardless of the distance, and regardless of whether or not you feel like it, on all the busy high traffic roads. It gets even harder for people to keep it up if they have run ins with motorists, get flats, or crash.

Roody

You're good at restating the problems, but you don't really offer much in the way of solutions. Why do you believe that maintaining the current inefficient infrastructure and wasteful land use patterns is something to be desired?

grayloon

The current land use patterns are what they are. You aren't going to shift the pattern in a few years. It took decades to get to where we are now. To shift back to more centralized land use will take even longer. High transportation costs may stop continued expansion of metropolitan areas, but its not going to cause millions to move back into the city. A lot of development and redevelopment of inner cities will have to be done to provide housing and infrastructure for such a move. As it stands now, most of what one sees in moves to the inner city is childless couples and singles. Affordable housing isn't there for families.

Its not a matter of current land use patterns being desirable. They aren't, but they are not going away anytime soon. Pitting those who live in the inner city against those who live in suburbs gets us nowhere. The same goes for pitting living car free against the use of other forms of transportation, including personal vehicles.

The solution to our current and future transportation problem is a many faceted one. Bicycles are only one aspect of that solution. Better land use will be a big part of the solution. Mass transit lies at the top of the list. Building pedestrian and bike friendly infrastructure should be a major part of the plans to move us toward energy independence. I don't have all the answers. Neither do you or anyone I've seen on Bike Forums. And, like you, I may be part of the problem, though I have made some moves to reduce my dependence on my auto and am using my bike more.

But, the smugness some have in the car free community when it comes to their lifestyle being better than those who continue to depend on the auto doesn't work. Gloating over high fuel prices and long lines resulting from shortages, real or made up, doesn't get you anywhere near a goal of moving people toward less dependence on the auto. Many of those who you are laughing at would love to have a way out of their situation, but don't see it. Unless you make the commitment to teaching rather than preaching, they ain't going to hear you.

gwd

Grayloon's post made me imagine Houston becoming many square miles of squalor with higher density due to several families living in each home but with subsistence acreage occupying areas that have access to irrigation water. A patchwork slum with some areas of primitive industry where the oil infrastructure used to be. Similar to what I remember of the outer reaches of Calcutta on the road to the airport.

grayloon

And you are presenting exactly the problem smug bugs face in presenting living car free or reduced dependence on cars as an alternative. That lovely image of yours will be a problem and nightmare for you and others if it comes to pass. Show a bit of maturity and understanding that there are better ways than gloating.

Uniekje

If this phenomenon hits my part of the coutry I will cycle down there to sell them some gas from my jerrycan. steep

gwd

Hey, its the image your post brought to mind. Care to share with us what you imagine for your city's future in an oil shortage world?

grayloon

Suffice it to say that I hope its not yours. The image you present is one of class warfare, haves and have nots, and an unbelievable costs to you and all else who live through it.

wahoonc

And...IMHO if the US continues along the current path it is just what we are headed for...regardless of who is in "power" in DC. I know this is doom and gloom, but I can't see the Federal Government being able to do jack crap. Change is going to come from the bottom up this time around.

Aaron

grayloon

Change in the form of answers to the energy crisis is going to come from many sectors of our society and economy.

Roody

Very well put. I agree with much of what you say, although I think you're barking up the wrong tree with the smugness charges. I really don't see much of that on this forum. Personally, I'm very aware of the pain and challenges being faced by some of my car dependent friends and relatives. As always, it's the poorer people who are really suffering. The mere inconvenience being "suffered" by the SUV hogs in the gas lines is laughable, however. I'm not going to feel sorry for anybody who willingly bought a $40,000 gas guzzler, knowing full well the damage being done to our economy and our shared environment. If that's smugness, I'm guilty and I don't care.

As to land use, I agree with you. Changes here are necessarily slow and haphazard to some extent. I'm not sure that a removal from the suburbs to the inner city is required or desired, however. I think it's preferable to go for more decentralized use patterns. Modern communication makes it less vital that we have everybody squeezed together in big cities in order to enjoy the amenities of civilization. It might be better to live in smaller communities with many localized services. If this occurs, we might see each individual suburb becoming more self-sufficient in jobs, entertainment and even food production. And of course there's plenty o vacant land in the inner cities for new factories, offices, energy production and even agriculture.

Like you say, if this land use shift happens, it will take some time. However, maybe not that much time. The original suburbs actually arose and became dominant in a very short time span--roughly only 15 years or so, between 1945 and 1960.

grayloon

The smugness factor I see on this board isn't from everyone, but there are more than a few who have that attitude. Some appear gleeful when gas prices go up or there are shortages creating long lines. I don't disagree about about the SUV hogs, but cannot claim to be completely clean. I do own and drive an F150...my kayak/canoe hauler...but it travels about 4000 miles per year or less. In fact, in the last three weeks, its been out of the driveway twice.

I agree that there is no need to move to the central city. And, it would be a good thing if employment centers in close proximity to suburban neighborhoods develop. But, people change jobs, companies move or close or contract their workforce and that will sometimes create situations in which people have to travel longer distances to work. Many change jobs for reasons of higher pay, increased responsibility, or better working conditions. Unlike 50 years ago, loyalty to company, as well as loyalty to the employee, is not common. The need for commuting isn't going away, therefore a shift to mass transit and cross town public transportation to move people to and between employment centers should be developed.

The biggest hindrances to moving to the inner-city for families are housing costs, shopping, and schools. The latter factor is probably one of the largest. Most inner city schools I'm familiar with in the Southern tier of the US are poor. Its going to take a lot of work and money to improve them.

One of the reasons suburbs developed as quickly as they did was availability of cheap land, coupled, of course, with cheap auto transportation. While there is land to be developed in or close to the inner-city, it is not inexpensive and is more difficult to put together in a way that makes it economical to develop for housing. Its going to happen, but not at the speed at which suburban housing developed.


I do have a great interest in the development and rehabilitation of the inner city, though will probably not chose to live in that environment again. I'm not of an age to have a desire to once again be a pioneer. After spending my career rebuilding and revitalizing older neighborhoods and housing, nothing would please me more than to see those areas come to life. My hope is that it can be done with minimal displacement of the lower income folks that now live in many of those areas. I fear that will not be the case and they will be forced to the near suburbs, increasing their transportation and housing costs. I also fear that the very diversity many seek from city life will be lost should that happen.

Roody

Keep in mind that this forum is our "club" where we can feel a little self-congratulatory at times, and express it in a gleeful or smug fashion. I personally don't have another outlet like that in my offline life. I'm usually the victim of car people's smugness--not the perpetrator.

I want to respond to the rest of your post--maybe tomorrow if I can find the time.

wahoonc

We have had "proper" land use in the past...take a look at hundreds of small towns across the country built around the turn of the 20th century. They were fairly compact, quite often had manufacturing facilities built on the edge of town and were served by railways and highways. I was riding about in such a small town today. Circleville, OH they have a compact walkable downtown area with the bulk of the population of 14k living with in a 2-3 mile radius. The downtown is still viable and alive. Riding back through some of the neighborhoods you find buildings that at one time were corner stores for that neighborhood, some of them still contain businesses, but none I observed were stores anymore. The town is falling prey to the sprawl game, you get to the southern limit of the old town and the sprawl begins. There is no real sprawl to the north, just farms and people who wanted to live on a few acres. In some cases with proper zoning and infill some suburban landscapes may be able to be reconfigured. It may take going back to the "company" housing to make it work for the lower paid individuals. We have lost our manufacturing base as well as much of our local food production in this country, until we either regain it or find a suitable substitute (which BTW I don't see as being feasible) we are going to continue to struggle as energy prices and everything else tied to them continues to escalate.

We are also going to have to, as a society, overcome the NIMBY and Me First attitudes as well as learn to do without the latest and the greatest. I was reminded of that yesterday when someone's spoiled brat of a teenager was whining that her IPOD was POS because it only held 1 gig and she was demanding that her mother buy her the newest one that held more...

Aaron

detroitjim

93 cars in line up to the service stations driveway (I counted)

dynodonn 

Even if the station had the capcity to fill 16 cars every 10 minutes, that's still a 1 hour wait if you're at the back of the line.

bikinpolitico

In Texas, we have been insulated from a lot of the economic problems because we are a population growth state. Partner this with an overly pro-developer legislature that butts into individual cities' businesses when they try to make positive change, and you see we get exactly what you are talking about.

I will say the simple economics of the current situation will force change. When the real estate bubble burst, on average the degree to which home values dropped was proportional to the distance from the center of cities. So you have a bad real estate investment paired with high transportation costs. I'm not sure people are going to keep doing that, especially if they can't get the financing.

I do agree not much is being done to address the affordability issue. Lower middle class and working class folks are going to get squeezed the worst if this continues without a plan. The new urban, gentrified center city is priced too high and the transportation costs are eating these folks lunch to live in the suburbs.

Dahon.Steve

This is what's happening in many places around the country.

You're seeing poor areas being "rezoned" for business and luxury condos and once that happens, property taxes go through the roof. The poor and middle class are squeezed out of the neighborhood and forced to live elsewhere. Slowly but surely, more and more people are moving back to the cities. The next generation is not going to live in the burbs unless they inherit the properties from parents or relatives. The rising cost of the single family home and two cars is rapidly becoming unaffordable. In fact, home prices in the burbs often equals or exceeds the price of apartments in many cities. With loans becoming scarce and difficult to attain, few will be able to live like the way their parents did.

You may not like the fact that our generation will be the last to have motor transport. However, we will never again discover an inexpensive fuel source in such great abundance as oil. Houston was created in large part due to this incredible discovery and now we are going to regress back to a simpler day as we finish it off. Our current lifestyle was never sustainable and we will go kicking and screaming as we leave the 21st century without the motorcar.

When you think about it, there was a time (about 100 year ago) when no one in Houston owned cars. It's true! Go to the library and ask for the local newspaper (in microfilm) dated around 1908. You will find that people got along just fine without cars. It wasn't impossible and we are headed in that direction again. In fact, you won't find a single person complaining that life 100 years ago was miserable without a combustion engine. Working, shopping, marrying and everything you're doing today will continue 150 years from now in Houston except without an automobile. That's due to the fact, our personal motorized transport system was only temporary until the oil ran out. But no one told you this.

I sometimes wonder how great life is going to be in Houston in 2108. If it resembles the way life was like in 1908, we will most certainly miss out. Unfortunately, we were born 100 years too early and 100 years too late to enjoy Houston when it was and will be once again, car free.

gwd

Nice way to avoid your own topic- that mass transit can't work in Houston. I didn't mention class warfare at all. I'm not sure what class warfare is. Is class warfare a person who can afford a car and suburban McMansion choosing not to? In other words, a person abandoning the destructive lifestyle which is typical of his economic status?