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Free Public Transportation

Old 04-12-10, 10:41 PM
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Free Public Transportation

Hello Bikeforums,
I have been following the blog freepublictransit, and was wondering what you all thought of the idea of free public transit in your town. The system would have to be funded by a tax levy of course, but the payoff would be huge in getting people out of their automobiles and making our cities more bicycle/pedestrian friendly. Buses and trains would run faster because they wouldn't have to collect fares. More people on transit > less cars on the road > less highway building > less parking lots and more density. Bicycle trips can also be combined with transit as well because of those nifty racks. Please leave your thoughts. Oh, and here's a cool video: https://au.video.yahoo.com/watch/7001808/18204661
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Old 04-13-10, 07:22 AM
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Inexpensive, but not free. It's been shown that when something is free, people tend to think it's without value.
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Old 04-13-10, 09:36 AM
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Free public transportation will not help to get people out of their cars here because so many in Los Angeles, Ventura, Riverside and Orange Counties drive long distances to work. With changing work schedules, very few will feel safe or tolerate taking the bus or train at late hours. So many of us are so into driving our cars, to take public transportation is below us. Another thing, some public transportation is free in Los Angeles. There is no control on the metro trains and some major bus lines. The trains have no turnstiles and bus drivers just open the back doors and everyone jumps onboard without paying or showing a pass.
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Old 04-13-10, 12:57 PM
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Where I am (NE Indiana), we already have an efficient bus system; offering free bus, and/or adding rail (mainly for out-of-town trips, the bus service covers the whole city) would meet a SOLID wall of resistance from the pretentious car-driving masses. Most would sooner give up a kidney than their car. Heck, until you tell them you can't survive without your LIVER, they'd trade that to keep driving!

That is a mindset that transcends economic class, too; the ghetto "po' folks" won't park that Caddy/Navigator/Escalade for love or money. The button-downs wear their car like a power tie, so they won't, either.

Seeing train service back here would give me a rush; but the old train station has been taken over by office space, so I don't see it............
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Old 04-13-10, 01:06 PM
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All transportation is subsidized. People drive on the road for "free" (except tollways) and probably more tax dollars subsidize that than go towards public transportation. In the US the gas tax certainly does not cover anywhere near the cost of providing roads. As I understand it, University of British Columbia students get "free" transit in Vancouver subsidized by various means. I think it is a great idea. The city is very well served by public transit and that makes it attractive and cheap for other users.
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Old 04-13-10, 03:22 PM
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I think you have some pipe dream like those rail road folks. It may cost me more to drive, but 60-70 min to travel 3 miles by bus is absurd - especially when driving only takes 10. The actual trip only takes about 15-20 minutes by bus, but the waiting part is a different story. Just because a bus is approaching doesn't mean it will stop because is packed to the gills with passengers and cannot take on any more. They may come by every 12 minutes or so but actually getting on a bus might mean waiting for the 3rd or 5th bus. Dare I say it, but SF's supposedly wonderful public transit system isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Fares only account for a small percentage of revenue, but who will want to subsidize it? People will balk at it like this Obamacare fiasco that's being rammed down people's throats, like it or not. The higher taxes may also encourage some people to move out of urban centers creating urban sprawl issue which also means more cars.

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Old 04-13-10, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ekincam View Post
I think you have some pipe dream like those rail road folks. It may cost me more to drive, but 60-70 min to travel 3 miles by bus is absurd - especially when driving only takes 10. The actual trip only takes about 15-20 minutes by bus, but the waiting part is a different story. Just because a bus is approaching doesn't mean it will stop because is packed to the gills with passengers and cannot take on any more. They may come by every 12 minutes or so but actually getting on a bus might mean waiting for the 3rd or 5th bus. Dare I say it, but SF's supposedly wonderful public transit system isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Fares only account for a small percentage of revenue, but who will want to subsidize it? People will balk at it like this Obamacare fiasco that's being rammed down people's throats, like it or not. The higher taxes may also encourage some people to move out of urban centers creating urban sprawl issue which also means more cars.
Interesting. Do you have any kind of documentation on these public transit horror stories? Did you experience the 70 minute, 3 mile trip? Did you ever have to wait for 5 buses to go by before you got picked up? Or are these things that happened to a friend of a friend, similar to urban myths?
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Old 04-13-10, 06:31 PM
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Another use of free public transportation is that it reduces the time spent by the bus driver dealing with ticketing issues. Several places have experimented successfully using free feeder buses into a more centralized bus line that actually costs money.

Read this blog for a discussion of the pros of free public transportation https://www.alternet.org/environment/57802/

Recently I met the people who run Island Transit in Whidbey Island, Wash., and rode their fare-free bus system. It's a serious operation with 56 buses and 101 vans. Ridership tops a million a year. Its operating budget is $8,392,677 -- none of it from fares, all from a 0.6 percent sales tax collected in Island County.
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Old 04-13-10, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
Interesting. Do you have any kind of documentation on these public transit horror stories? Did you experience the 70 minute, 3 mile trip? Did you ever have to wait for 5 buses to go by before you got picked up? Or are these things that happened to a friend of a friend, similar to urban myths?
Every single one of these happened to me between Aug 2008 to May 2009. I invite you to try to catch the southbound SF Muni bus number 29 near AP Giannni middle school and try to get to SFSU, a distance of about 3 miles, any day during which school is in session at 8:30 am and try to get to destination before 9:20am. About 30-40% of the time, you won't make it. In the worst case, it took 90 minutes.

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Old 04-13-10, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by totoroben View Post
Hello Bikeforums,
I have been following the blog freepublictransit, and was wondering what you all thought of the idea of free public transit in your town. The system would have to be funded by a tax levy of course, but the payoff would be huge in getting people out of their automobiles and making our cities more bicycle/pedestrian friendly. Buses and trains would run faster because they wouldn't have to collect fares. More people on transit > less cars on the road > less highway building > less parking lots and more density. Bicycle trips can also be combined with transit as well because of those nifty racks. Please leave your thoughts. Oh, and here's a cool video: https://au.video.yahoo.com/watch/7001808/18204661
Very good video.. Thanks for posting.

First, I could not believe the number of people who are using the system now that it's free! The video stated in 1996, (just 13 years ago) they had 400 thousand users each year. Now that it's free, they have 4.5 million users each year!! Incredible.

I did research on other sites and they were all positive. I've come away a believer on the whole concept and while it maybe a dream, you can be sure others will try it. With gas going up to 4 dollars a gallon in two years, who wouldn't ride a free bus? I guess we'll never have it here in the U.S. but what a pleasure it must be to live in that city. I wonder if they have a retirement community there?

From another article:

The Hasselt experience before 1997 was not much different than anywhere else in the western world. Car ownership in Hasselt rose by 25 per cent from 1987 to 1999, while the population increased by only 3.3 per cent during this same period. Although Hasselt is the fourth largest city in Belgium, it ranked first in car ownership during those years

Karl Storchmann, a researcher at Yale University, has documented that even the 12 per cent of bus riders that were previously cyclists, as well as the 9 per cent that switched from walking to the bus in Hasselt, will produce a net positive change for society, since pedestrians and cyclists "belong to the most endangered road users, [and] every decrease in these modes will lead to a reduction of automobile-caused costs [i.e., deaths and injuries]."

https://postcarboncities.net/node/415
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Old 04-13-10, 10:37 PM
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The big city down south of me used to have a "fareless square" for all transit in the heart of the city, but they recently got rid of it for buses. Only for light rail and street car now. I don't get down that way much these days, so I can't comment on how things have changed.
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Old 04-13-10, 10:43 PM
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There is no such thing as free.

The best way to screw up a nation's, state's, or local economy is to distort the pricing of goods and services....

Spending someone's else's money is fine, until it runs out....

(sorry, but I just finished my state and federal tax return.....ouch)
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Old 04-14-10, 03:39 AM
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There was a post over on Lovely Bicycle about the mass transit in Vienna it seems they don't mess with collecting fares at every stop, they run on a sort of honor system, but do periodic checks and they will fine you if you don't have a current transit pass. I cannot see that system ever working in the US. If enough people would "buy" into mass transit and it was set up properly they could go with an RIFD type card system which would speed things up a bit over the current mish mash we have.

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Old 04-14-10, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
There was a post over on Lovely Bicycle about the mass transit in Vienna it seems they don't mess with collecting fares at every stop, they run on a sort of honor system, but do periodic checks and they will fine you if you don't have a current transit pass.
Many (if not most) European systems and at least two Canadian ones(Calgary's light rail and Toronto's GO system) employ an honor system with periodic spot checks.
It seems that the Los Angeles County Metro Rail is converting away from such a system because of perceived losses.

IMO anything can divert people away from can divert people away from cars and an asphalt landscape can benefit cities. A no-fare system sounds outlandish, but deserves study by North America's cities.
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Old 04-14-10, 08:13 AM
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I would go for inexpensive but not free, or only free on certain routes. Otherwise people will tend to overuse the service by say taking a bus two stops instead of their own two feet.

Still the tax levy to heavily subsidize transit will be huge, and people resistant to the idea of public transit will fight it tooth and nail. Drivers in Toronto already kvetch and complain why their tax dollars go to transit when they don't use it. I think we need another transit strike to remind them of how much transit speeds up their commute - it is gridlock madness.
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Old 04-14-10, 10:06 AM
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@Metzinger @wahoonc I am also familiar with the honor system. Cleveland Ohio has recently went to the honor system on the Red Line, which was news to me. I got on the rapid and there was no fare box. I walked off thinking maybe I pay at destination..... nope. I intend to pay next time.
@Dahon.Steve Yes, the ridership increase was very dramatic and instead of being crushed by the extra riders, Hasselt simply bought more buses. It really is that simple, and much cheaper than building new roads. As far as the Yale study goes, I don't think there is a benefit when less miles are walked or biked because that means people are more sedentary and this will lead them down the path of chronic disease. The removal of cars from the road is the positive impact here. I would issue recommendations for distances easily covered by walking (<1.5mi) and cycling (<7mi) and the free buses could fill in the gaps for longer travel distances and out of town commuters.
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Old 04-14-10, 10:30 AM
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We have a RFID-based system. With buses, the reader is in front. Entry through front door only, so driver monitors everyone shows their pass to the reader. In other vehicles (trains, ferries, trams, subway) showing the card to the reader is honor based, but monitored with frequent spot checks. There are quite a few free riders everywhere else except on buses.

We've also had discussions on whether it would be actually easier and cheaper to make public transport completely free (tax funded). The concensus so far has been, it's better to keep a price tag on it, so it has an obvious value to people. Prices are subsidized though, through taxes. If I didn't commute by bike, I'd get a one year pass for about 2,7 euros per day, or less than 2 euros per each one way commuting trip. It's practically free compared to other options (gasoline alone would cost about the same).
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Old 04-14-10, 01:25 PM
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I think this approach is short-sighted. Free public transportation is not going to get people out of their cars. People like their cars. They aren't looking for alternatives. Buses, etc. are already cheaper than gas money--cost of riding is not the issue.

We live in a car culture and it'd take something systemic and monumental to change that.
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Old 04-14-10, 02:13 PM
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jtgotsjets you sound like the evidence-based transportation policy guy, and yet your in the car-free area of BikeForums. People appear to like their cars so much because the infrastructure caters to drivers. This isn't set in stone, we can change the built environment to re-prioritize our modal share. I don't own a car, and I am a part of a growing demographic.
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Old 04-14-10, 02:34 PM
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Theres a free bus system here in Tempe Az "Orbit" that consists of 5 routes that run in "Squares" through neighborhoods from one main point to the other & criss cross at certain points & meet up or drop off where you can catch another free transit bus from another town (small school bus size buses) to get even further...its incredibly effective although not as direct or fast as if you were to take a regular direct route bus or even ride your bicycle.

Ive used it when my bikes down or I dont feel like riding for whatever reason...its been free for a long time now but theres talk of it getting bumped up to a quater per ride which still isnt bad.

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Old 04-14-10, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Juha View Post
We have a RFID-based system. With buses, the reader is in front. Entry through front door only, so driver monitors everyone shows their pass to the reader. In other vehicles (trains, ferries, trams, subway) showing the card to the reader is honor based, but monitored with frequent spot checks. There are quite a few free riders everywhere else except on buses.
Does your RFID system work? We have one here, that I'm told has been under development since the late 90s and still does not work properly. It is in beta and decided to try it, but it turned out that not all vehicles accept the RFID pass and that it doesn't always work. In these situations, it meant I had to pay the regular cash fare which ranges from $2 to $5 -- thereby defeating the purpose of buying a monthly ticket.
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Old 04-14-10, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by merlin55 View Post
There is no such thing as free.

The best way to screw up a nation's, state's, or local economy is to distort the pricing of goods and services....

Spending someone's else's money is fine, until it runs out....

(sorry, but I just finished my state and federal tax return.....ouch)
So do you think that every time somebody drives on a road, they should have to pay a toll?
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Old 04-14-10, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by merlin55 View Post
There is no such thing as free.

The best way to screw up a nation's, state's, or local economy is to distort the pricing of goods and services....
I agree, correct consumer/user pricing of gasoline, road usage, and suburban sprawl would be quite an eye opener
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Old 04-14-10, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
I agree, correct consumer/user pricing of gasoline, road usage, and suburban sprawl would be quite an eye opener
Isn't the Canadian gas tax closer to the actual usage costs? In the US it's $.18/gallon I think and has been that was a while. Meanwhile, the cost of road building and maintenance keeps going up.
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Old 04-14-10, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by gerv View Post
Isn't the Canadian gas tax closer to the actual usage costs? In the US it's $.18/gallon I think and has been that was a while. Meanwhile, the cost of road building and maintenance keeps going up.
Our gas costs pretty close to $1/L which translates to $3.78/US gallon (our dollar is at par). Thus we pay quite a bit more than you, and I assume the difference is tax.
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