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Dutch City Bikes

Old 02-10-11, 07:51 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
I DON'T consider aluminum an upgrade in a bike frame.... so call me a retro grouch. I ride both and much prefer the ride quality and feel of steel, and yes I can tell the difference. The only advantage to aluminum that I am aware of is that it doesn't rust. That and I can get more money from the scrappers for it.

Aaron
Aaron... this is a $300 bicycle for the city. Nobody I know can actually tell the difference between the materials, only at the higher levels when skill and different tubing types come into play does it even make a TINY difference... In fact i bet keeping the proper psi in a tire is a better thing to worry about. And yes, thin walled steel tubing, the kind that gives you a "lively" ride as those artists say rusts out quickly.


edit:
I should add one more thing, i'm all for enjoying a bicycle, but i have issue when the dutch bicycle is better conversation comes around again and again. There is a significant snob component going on here. So, without calling anybody a snob i'll just leave it at that! One doesn't neet a $1500 pashley or whatever to run errands and slamming a $300 bicycle for not being steel... well, whatever. I'm sure it was necessary.

Last edited by electrik; 02-10-11 at 08:06 PM. Reason: one more thing
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Old 02-11-11, 12:58 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by ruindd View Post
That's kind of been my thoughts. I keep going back and forth between mtb, touring, or dutch bike.
Unless you're going off-road, I'd suggest a touring bike. The touring bike does everything a Dutch bike can do, only it's more versatile in varied terrain. Mountain bikes are very, very good for unpaved roads, but on paved roads they pretty much suck, unless you put road tires on them, and even then, if they have have suspension, they still suck.
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Old 02-11-11, 04:59 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by electrik View Post
Aaron... this is a $300 bicycle for the city. Nobody I know can actually tell the difference between the materials, only at the higher levels when skill and different tubing types come into play does it even make a TINY difference... In fact i bet keeping the proper psi in a tire is a better thing to worry about. And yes, thin walled steel tubing, the kind that gives you a "lively" ride as those artists say rusts out quickly.


edit:
I should add one more thing, i'm all for enjoying a bicycle, but i have issue when the dutch bicycle is better conversation comes around again and again. There is a significant snob component going on here. So, without calling anybody a snob i'll just leave it at that! One doesn't neet a $1500 pashley or whatever to run errands and slamming a $300 bicycle for not being steel... well, whatever. I'm sure it was necessary.
I have seen not one but 3 inexpensive aluminum frame bikes fail shortly after purchase, taking a close look at the fracture it appears that too much heat was applied to the weld area. I have 2 other steel framed cheap bicycles (~$90) that unbelievably crappy welds on them, but are not likely to fail without warning.

I agree that not everyone needs a Pashley nor a cheap bike. I cannot fathom why they would want to send a non repairable frame bike to a third world country, which was my understanding of the reason behind the Africa bike.

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Old 02-15-11, 03:53 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by electrik View Post
One doesn't neet a $1500 pashley or whatever to run errands and slamming a $300 bicycle for not being steel... well, whatever. I'm sure it was necessary.
I agree, BUT what else fulfills my wants.

1) Step-thru frame -For easy mount/dismount
2) Rear Coaster brake - Frees up a hand for braking. On a regular bike I hate coaster brakes, but on a dutch bike they make sense. It's safer.
3) IGH
4) Strong enough to carry serious weight on Front/Rear Rack
5) Jacket/Skirt/Chain Guard - Allows rider to ride in all clothing without worry
6) Upright riding position - Safer since it lets people see you and they can see you. Also allows easier mounts/dismounts in snow. Also very comfy
7) Security Features - Integrated lock, plus heavy weight makes it easy to only have to add one lock in order to discourage theft.
8) Built-in fenders - duh
9) Dyno-hub would be nice, but not required.

What bike gives all of that without being expensive? I feel like the rear coaster hub is incredibly important. It allows you to carry something while riding. I know that's not optimal, but I find myself trying to carry something while riding all of the time. I also feel like the geometry makes it safer and appeal to a greater audience. Dutch bikes are the way they are for a reason, they make sense when you think about it. My wife doesn't want a bike with 27 gears, that she'll have to hunch over on. She wants one that she can ride in any clothes, easily start/stop, be comfortable, and safe on. Dutch bikes fit that bill.
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Old 02-15-11, 08:18 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by wahoonc View Post
I have seen not one but 3 inexpensive aluminum frame bikes fail shortly after purchase, taking a close look at the fracture it appears that too much heat was applied to the weld area. I have 2 other steel framed cheap bicycles (~$90) that unbelievably crappy welds on them, but are not likely to fail without warning.

I agree that not everyone needs a Pashley nor a cheap bike. I cannot fathom why they would want to send a non repairable frame bike to a third world country, which was my understanding of the reason behind the Africa bike.

Aaron
Oh, ok Aaron.. well yes it might be less common to find welders who can weld aluminum in Africa... I haven't spent much time there to make an estimation. I also haven't checked out the welds on the africa bike... Saying that, crappy welding is crappy welding and you run the risk of a crap weld with any bargain bicycle... Of course there is a warranty provided by Kona, lifetime on the frame.
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Old 02-15-11, 08:25 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by vantassell View Post
I agree, BUT what else fulfills my wants.

1) Step-thru frame -For easy mount/dismount
2) Rear Coaster brake - Frees up a hand for braking. On a regular bike I hate coaster brakes, but on a dutch bike they make sense. It's safer.
3) IGH
4) Strong enough to carry serious weight on Front/Rear Rack
5) Jacket/Skirt/Chain Guard - Allows rider to ride in all clothing without worry
6) Upright riding position - Safer since it lets people see you and they can see you. Also allows easier mounts/dismounts in snow. Also very comfy
7) Security Features - Integrated lock, plus heavy weight makes it easy to only have to add one lock in order to discourage theft.
8) Built-in fenders - duh
9) Dyno-hub would be nice, but not required.

What bike gives all of that without being expensive? I feel like the rear coaster hub is incredibly important. It allows you to carry something while riding. I know that's not optimal, but I find myself trying to carry something while riding all of the time. I also feel like the geometry makes it safer and appeal to a greater audience. Dutch bikes are the way they are for a reason, they make sense when you think about it. My wife doesn't want a bike with 27 gears, that she'll have to hunch over on. She wants one that she can ride in any clothes, easily start/stop, be comfortable, and safe on. Dutch bikes fit that bill.
I'm sure you realize wants are not necessities ... Yes a "dutch" bicycle fulfills all those, but are you just reading their brochure? I think the Africa bike actually meets some of those criteria(not saying you have to buy one). To a certain extent cycling is as expensive as you want to make it. Just like pcad(haha) or other roadie groms will be going on about how they'd never race on a steel frame or something there is commuter guy going on about how he'd never buy i9 over alfine. IMO, there are significant snob issues going on in both cases.
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Old 02-15-11, 10:42 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by electrik View Post
... this is a $300 bicycle for the city. Nobody I know can actually tell the difference between the materials, only at the higher levels when skill and different tubing types come into play does it even make a TINY difference... I should add one more thing, i'm all for enjoying a bicycle, but i have issue when the dutch bicycle is better conversation comes around again and again. There is a significant snob component going on here. So, without calling anybody a snob i'll just leave it at that! One doesn't neet a $1500 pashley or whatever to run errands and slamming a $300 bicycle for not being steel... well, whatever. I'm sure it was necessary.
I have owned all sorts of bikes over the years. I owned cheap used ones, super expensive ones, and plain ol' ones. And which ones are the ones I buy and keep for a long period of time usually over a decade? The better ones like my Brompton & my Raleigh Twenty. It has nothing to do with snobbery, being "cool," "in," lightweight Aluminum metal all over it, or some other such nonsense. It is being dependable and not having to be taken to a bike shop all the time for repair like my now former Chinese ones. They were far cheaper in the initial price, but in the long term....if I could not ride them with confidence at 3 o'clock in the morning to a hospital 5 miles away to be at a loved one's side, it is not worth the price-or space in my house. That is the primary basic reason & bottom line for having any bike in my life and taking up valuable space in my house.

Dutch bikes fall in that category. My next purchase I am seriously considering for a new bike is a simple one speed genuine Dutch City bike.

Last edited by folder fanatic; 02-15-11 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 02-15-11, 11:58 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by electrik View Post
I'm sure you realize wants are not necessities ... Yes a "dutch" bicycle fulfills all those, but are you just reading their brochure? I think the Africa bike actually meets some of those criteria(not saying you have to buy one). To a certain extent cycling is as expensive as you want to make it. Just like pcad(haha) or other roadie groms will be going on about how they'd never race on a steel frame or something there is commuter guy going on about how he'd never buy i9 over alfine. IMO, there are significant snob issues going on in both cases.
Yeah, that's what I struggle with figuring out what's just a want and what's a practical necessity. If it's not comfy, convenient, safe, and easy to ride my wife won't want to ride it. So even though some things are wants, they turn into needs because if the bike isn't getting ridden, it's a failure.

We live in a slightly hilly (ok pretty hilly at times) area, so we need multiple gears.

I'm not reading the brochure, I just went through in my head all of the things I'd want in a bike. We were watching those "amsterdam rush hour" videos on youtube and I noticed a lot of people were holding things in their hands. That's when I realized that the rear coaster brake made the bike a lot safer. I've had times were I couldn't brake well because I was carrying something and hadn't placed my hand in the right spot. So it makes sense to free up a hand by making the rear brake foot actuated.

I guess the skirt/jacket guard is a want, but I'd hate to get a jacket caught up in the spokes or something. The fenders are nearly a requirement, same with chain guard. A step thru frame makes it easier to carry things. I feel like the step thru combined with high bars and a relaxed seat tube make it easier to ride in the snow (which we get plenty of). Since it's so easy to put a foot down and catch yourself when slipping, snow isn't as big of worry on dutch style bikes.

I guess the biggest "wants" that aren't needs that I listed are the rear wheel lock, and dynohub.
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Old 02-16-11, 12:21 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by ruindd View Post
I'm not reading the brochure, I just went through in my head all of the things I'd want in a bike. We were watching those "amsterdam rush hour" videos on youtube and I noticed a lot of people were holding things in their hands. That's when I realized that the rear coaster brake made the bike a lot safer. I've had times were I couldn't brake well because I was carrying something and hadn't placed my hand in the right spot. So it makes sense to free up a hand by making the rear brake foot actuated.
Coaster brakes and the gears that go with them are probably okay for a totally flat landscape, but if you're dealing with a lot of hills, that sort of arrangement is just silly, especially if you're planning to carry things in one hand while riding. I can't imagine riding over Phinney Ridge in Seattle on a one or three three speed with coaster brakes, carrying a small bag of groceries in one hand while trying to ride uphill. That's why they make panniers, backpacks, and messenger bags.
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Old 02-16-11, 12:21 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by folder fanatic View Post
...
Dutch bikes fall in that category. My next purchase I am seriously considering for a new bike is a simple one speed genuine Dutch City bike.
Yeah, but you see... the "genuine" you stuck in there is what i'm talking about.
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Old 02-16-11, 12:30 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by ruindd View Post
Yeah, that's what I struggle with figuring out what's just a want and what's a practical necessity. If it's not comfy, convenient, safe, and easy to ride my wife won't want to ride it. So even though some things are wants, they turn into needs because if the bike isn't getting ridden, it's a failure.

We live in a slightly hilly (ok pretty hilly at times) area, so we need multiple gears.

I'm not reading the brochure, I just went through in my head all of the things I'd want in a bike. We were watching those "amsterdam rush hour" videos on youtube and I noticed a lot of people were holding things in their hands. That's when I realized that the rear coaster brake made the bike a lot safer. I've had times were I couldn't brake well because I was carrying something and hadn't placed my hand in the right spot. So it makes sense to free up a hand by making the rear brake foot actuated.

I guess the skirt/jacket guard is a want, but I'd hate to get a jacket caught up in the spokes or something. The fenders are nearly a requirement, same with chain guard. A step thru frame makes it easier to carry things. I feel like the step thru combined with high bars and a relaxed seat tube make it easier to ride in the snow (which we get plenty of). Since it's so easy to put a foot down and catch yourself when slipping, snow isn't as big of worry on dutch style bikes.

I guess the biggest "wants" that aren't needs that I listed are the rear wheel lock, and dynohub.
There are the specialized Globe brand, Norco, Trek's eco stuff and etc...

A mountain bike style is best when surfaces get sketchy(if you ask me). Holding stuff in your hands seems foreign to me also - it's bag or pannier. I also should warn you that coaster brakes do fad on hills, but i think those bicycle also come with a front brake. The upright style is great for flat areas, but you'll have to stand and pedal to get up hills, due to the stable nature of the dutch style fork the bicycles are a bit "floppy" when going slow. Anyway, just stuff for you to consider... there was another poster who bought
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Old 02-16-11, 05:17 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by bragi View Post
Coaster brakes and the gears that go with them are probably okay for a totally flat landscape, but if you're dealing with a lot of hills, that sort of arrangement is just silly, especially if you're planning to carry things in one hand while riding. I can't imagine riding over Phinney Ridge in Seattle on a one or three three speed with coaster brakes, carrying a small bag of groceries in one hand while trying to ride uphill. That's why they make panniers, backpacks, and messenger bags.
True. You always bring up good points, and for some reason they set in better when directed at me rather than just general banter I read

I guess I can see how for sometimes we'd like some gears, but for a lot of rides it'd be pretty flat. I guess I just want to have my cake and eat it too. Can't you let me just do that in peace?
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Old 02-16-11, 07:01 PM
  #38  
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My wife rides an Electra townie with a 3 speed hub. We live in a relatively flat part of the country, she has a rear rack with Wald baskets on it, and we added fenders. It can also pull our trailer, although most of the time when we are going to be hauling stuff, she invites me along . The bike is bright pink, was not very expensive, and she loves it for the type of 2-3mile runs that she does to the library, store or farmers market. Build quality seems not-too-bad to me, and she is very happy with it.
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Old 02-17-11, 12:06 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by ruindd View Post

I guess I can see how for sometimes we'd like some gears, but for a lot of rides it'd be pretty flat. I guess I just want to have my cake and eat it too. Can't you let me just do that in peace?
I was just making conversation, not trying to attack. If you like coaster brakes and they work well for you in your environment, by all means, go ahead with my full blessing. The more bikes there are out there, the better for all of us.
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Old 02-17-11, 06:25 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by bragi View Post
I was just making conversation, not trying to attack. If you like coaster brakes and they work well for you in your environment, by all means, go ahead with my full blessing. The more bikes there are out there, the better for all of us.
I know, I was just joking about the "do that in peace bit", tongue in cheek sort of stuff. No worries.
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Old 02-20-11, 02:25 PM
  #41  
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Might I suggest the Torker Big-T. It is an entry level Dutch style utility bike and the MSRP is around 350.
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Old 02-21-11, 12:40 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by bragi View Post
Coaster brakes and the gears that go with them are probably okay for a totally flat landscape, but if you're dealing with a lot of hills, that sort of arrangement is just silly, especially if you're planning to carry things in one hand while riding. I can't imagine riding over Phinney Ridge in Seattle on a one or three three speed with coaster brakes, carrying a small bag of groceries in one hand while trying to ride uphill. That's why they make panniers, backpacks, and messenger bags.
I like coaster brakes for the rather rare times I ride in the rain. I live in an rather hilly area of Los Angeles, so I have learned when to simply get off the bike if the hill is rather steep (up or down) for braking-I don't care what others think. I think carrying a bag or something else balanced on a handlebar precariously without proper securing is unsafe even with coaster brakes. So....here is my own solutions. You are seeing some of my own pattern samples for the first time anywhere. At the end of the this week, you will be able to sew yourself or hire a local seamstress/tailor to sew your own bags just like mine with your home domestic sewing machine...and make them completely machine washable. The Bicycle Hobo is already to roll as you can see for yourselves. Why balance anything so unsafely or import some middleman's overpriced jacked up bags from the far east anymore & remain dependent on them? If you do have some worthy bags at home, you can still adapt them for bike usage as the blue bag shown below was done for my Dahon. I spent a year developing and making these samples and experimented on the best way to do them.
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