folder fanatic

"Midschool22" originally posted this thread on the Foo forum. I thought this topic had great relevance on this forum. So here is the link to the Foo one:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/736088-Woman-kicked-off-train-for-talking-too-loud.

And the original news article here:
https://www.katu.com/news/local/121962009.html

As for my own take on this incident. One of the main reason why I am so put off with any sort of public transit option is simply that I don't care to be crammed in an enclosed sardine can and dictated to like a schoolgirl (I am long pass that stage). Or bothered by other boorish people's problematic behavior-both legal-wise (as what happened in the article) and expected social behavior-wise (screaming kids and farting). I like using private vehicles like my bikes, and when the distance is too far for the bikes in the time allowed, driving a car either a rental or my own.

Unless you are wealthy enough to have a whole rail car to yourself, why bother with trains when you can drive?

Ekdog

Is it just trains or do you have an aversion to sharing other public spaces with your fellow human beings as well? Perhaps you would feel more comfortable if you left the Los Angeles area and moved out into one of the more isolated parts of the Mojave Desert.

folder fanatic

I am a typical Los Angeles native in my commuting habits-either using my bike or car. I am just being honest about what most people don't like to talk about-and perhaps a bit too graphic in detailed descriptions-necessary in this case. We (Southern Californians, not like Europeans at all) are not very socialized about using public spaces as there is really no gathering places anymore. I do see problems every time I use the lightrail or buses (especially the smaller neighborhood shuttles) and those problems are either ignored or the culprit is thrown off. Why should I have to be subjected to these dramatic scenes in the first place. When I ride or drive without using mass transit, I don't have to worry about anything preventing my getting to work or appointments on time. When I forgo my either my bike or especially my car, I lose something very valuable-being an adult and making my own decisions. I cannot count the times when I use Los Angeles area public transit, I was bumped because I had a smaller wheeled folding bike and there was no room on the bus/train for it and even my fare paying body, for the aged people (my elderly mother was even bumped and I end up driving her) and whatnot over screaming babies and their baby junk, and huge electric powered overgrown wheel scooters driven by people that don't even need one. I gave it much thought and decided that I don't like to be ordered around or prevent disabled others from using the bus/train, thus my exodus back to limited car and more bike (tricycle for hauling) use. Even my mother can now get around to her appointments in dignity. I know it is very hard for Europeans and even people from New York City and Chicago to understand our lifestyle here, but it is what it is.

As far as using public transit, I think you missed the point. The woman in question did pay her fare just like everyone else. And using those cell/mobile phones are at an epidemic level around here (a real addiction?, who knows) is commonplace here without social etiquette not quite catching up to technology yet. All I can say is when you are using your own vehicle (be it an humble bike to a high speed car, you are your own person and can act as boorish as you wish-providing you ride/drive lawfully. Another important fact is...you don't inflict yourself and your boorish behavior on others!

TheHen

I can relate to FFs problem. When I moved from NorCal to OR, I was shocked at the lack of civility in public places. The buses are used as shelter by the homeless and the one winter my family used them a bit we lost all of February to several rounds of the flu. I still happily use BART when I return to the Bay Area. However, I now get a sleeper for the Amtrak trip between here and there (like tomorrow); the folks in coach are getting cruder all the time. I just don't enjoy watching child abuse.

Ekdog

Indeed! Of course those unworthy plebeians in coach lack the elegance and civility to be mingling in high society with the likes of FF and the Hen.

Steely Dan

one word: money

owning a car would be an outright waste of money for me. just to rent a parking spot in my condo building would cost me $250/month. and if i were to drive a car to work, i'd either have to get a $100/month parking pass for the garage or pay $8/day for the daily parking rate. so that's up to $350/month just on parking, and we haven't even begun to talk about car payments, insurance, state & city registration, gasoline, or maintenance yet. taking the el to work on days that i don't bike costs me a grand total of $4.50/day, all in - no other ancillary costs.

so i will gladly put up with some occasional boorish behavior on the el to save thousands of dollars every year.

Mauriceloridans

The lady got kicked off the train. There are limits to the boorishness. The polite passengers were vindicated. If you witness child abuse you can report it to child protection. Participate in society. Cagers have forgotten how.

CarFreeFam4

The woman was riding in a quiet car, according to the article, in which the use of cell phones is prohibited. She should have been removed long before 16 hours of disregarding the policy.

I used mass transit (prior to moving to a city with lackluster service) for a myriad of reasons. One was money, another was a realization that I am not the only person in the world. How much of a burden is it really to have to be exposed to other people? Increased awareness and connection to my local community is one of the greatest hidden benefits I have found in living car-free. I can't roll up my window and crank the radio while I cruise past anymore. I have to be present and be a part of the place I live and I am a better person for it.

coldfeet

16 hours? 16 Freakin' Hours??!! Holy Cow. I've spoken a couple of times to people who have their MP3 players cranked up when on the bus, but that's only 30 minutes max, 16 hours? if I'd been there and they hadn't kicked her off, I would have left the train and hitch hiked.

vettefrc2000

Good! Should have kicked Lakeysha off sooner!

Roody

I had a similar (probably worse) incident on an Indian Trails bus in northern Michigan.

The driver had announced that listening devices were allowed only if used only with headphones and with low volume that seatmates couldn't hear, Then he turned on a radio with eay listening music. Two women traveling with three children in the rear of the bus put on some loud pop music and chanted along with the songs as they played. Sitting in the middle of the bus, I was assailed with noise from both the front and the rear. I complained to the driver. He turned his music down a little, but evidently he couldn't hear the music from the rear because of his own music. I asked the women to turn down their music. They immediately became belligerent and threatening with me. They even coached their children to chant something like "There's a mean man on the bus, there's a mean man on the bus. Due to their threats, I decided to ignore them. With great difficulty, I managed to remain silent for a while, and eventually they turned the music down as the children got sleepy.

I didnt feel good about ignoring them, because I think the only way for citizens to improve matters is to get involved. I try to talk to boorish people in a respectful manner, and convince them to be more respectful. That often works. In this case, it just wasn't worth it, considering the ugliness of the behavior.

This bus company normally does a good job of enforcing the rules. The driver started out by breaking the rule himself, and that made it difficult for him to enforce it.

myrridin

Which is one reason I like cell phones. It doesn't take much effort to get a hold of someone in some authority in the company... And since they almost always have some means of communicating to the drivers, such communication can effect a prompt change...

Roody

Yes, reporting a driver or conductor can have a big impact. I overheard two drivers from this same bus company talking about the difficult time a third driver was having in defending himself against a customre complaint. I should have taken it further, but you know...I was mad at the time but I got over it pretty quickly....

I-Like-To-Bike

Your second paragraph contradicts the first.

Why not be a part of the place you live and "enjoy the benefit" of being "exposed" to other people on public transit who have different values than yourself about following the rules of common courtesy?

16 hours of such "exposure" should make you one heck of a better person for it.

CarFreeFam4

Sorry, I ought to have been more clear. The first paragraph was my thoughts on this exact situation, the second were my thoughts on mass transit in general, and aimed as a response to Folder Fanatic's post about his distaste for being exposed to other people.

In this particular circumstance, the woman was repeatedly breaking a stated policy. After a warning, removal seems like the proper step. If there are no consequences for openly flaunting policies, then there is no real point in having the policies in the first place. This is not just an issue of a person not paying any attention to the discomfort of others, or lacking common courtesy.

Roody

There is absolutely no contradiction between wanting people to be courteous and also wanting to enjoy public occasions.

You expect to enjoy a ball game without the person behind you puking beer on you. You expect to go to a movie without stepping in somebody's wad of bubble gum. You expect to go to the library without somebody coughing and sneezing on you. Why can't you enjoy being with fellow travellers on a designated QUIET train car wothout also enjoying some bimbo screaming on her cell phone for 16 hours.

99 percent of the people around me are courteous and respectful, and I enjoy sharing with them. But that one per cent of bad apples can make things unpleasant for everybody else.

Dahon.Steve

I see more and more of this no cell phone cars on the font and back of the train. People are just getting tired of this and NJ Transit has follow the same route Amtrak did and I'm sure others will do the same.

As someone said, the cost of driving is just getting out of hand. I take public transit 5 to 7 days a week and will not go back to driving. I've learned there are bus lines that carry less passengers and trains that do the same. I use those routes to get to work.

Other times I like changing my bus just to see other parts of the city. I'm using the bus schedule more and more so there's less waiting. I enjoy public transit.

Pobble.808

In Tokyo, where I'm currently living, it is universally accepted that talking on your cell while you're on a bus or train (meaning the whole train, not just a special car) is as much of a no-no as it is in a movie theater. In fact, most passengers do have their phones whipped out, but only for texting, surfing the web, listening to music (w/ earphones of course) and the like.
As I recall, although I could be wrong, it was not like this when I was here a dozen years ago and cellphones had only recently become widespread. Change is possible, even for "individualistic" / self-entitled Americans -- look at what has happened with smoking in public over the last few decades. And even Americans generally don't seem to have much of a problem with the idea that yakking on a cell is not acceptable in certain situations such as movies and concerts. Whether this list will ever be extended to include driving cars or riding on public trans (oh yeah, and bikes) remains to be seen. I'm not optimistic, but fortunately I've been wrong before

wahoonc

Japan is a culture unto itself...

They may have banned smoking in public places but that doesn't mean it is being properly observed or enforced. To many Americans have the me first, screw you attitude and then get an even bigger attitude if they are corrected or asked to comply. It is getting worse. My bride is a 28 year veteran flight attendant, she will tell you that it is a relief and joy to get someone that actually has the manners, decency, and upbringing to say "please" and "thank you". And that goes for adults too. She had to "blue card" a flight the other night and return to the gate because a certain passenger in their 40's refused to put their cellphone away and continued texting even after multiple announcements and two personal visits. They had already pushed back and were starting to taxi when this person refused to comply.

Aaron

Doohickie

Double standard much? You said in consecutive sentences that YOU want to do whatever you want, but you don't like when OTHER people do.

Or are you just trying to troll?

I-Like-To-Bike

That's all nothing to be concerned about because IAW Roody, "99 percent of the people around me are courteous and respectful." Your bride and the rest of the passengers on all public transportation should just smile and remember than it is only a 1%er causing the problem therefore the trip is really enjoyable.

Roody

If you have something to say about me, say it to me.

Booger1

So what's the problem,some person thinks their better than everyone else and the rules don't apply to them.Welcome to the 21st century....

zoltani

Hmmmm...

wahoonc

Problem is the percentages are increasing...

Aaron