Bike lanes are useless
02-06-13, 01:26 AM
#26
bragi
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Certainly not 'braver,' but I do think people who are already recreational cyclists are going to have a lot more confidence if they choose to commute by bike than someone who does not ride recreationally.
1. Someone who rides for fun and health already has the confidence in their fitness to ride for considerable distances, to deal with flats and minor mechanical issues, and to handle their bicycle safely.
2. The discomfort of being passed at speed, passed to closely, and interacting with automobile traffic is bound to be lessened for the recreational cyclist because they are will probably already have some experience dealing with these events, and because they will tend to be faster on the bike than the person who doesn't ride recreationally, therefore the relative speed (and perceived danger) of passing automobile traffic will be lower.
3. Recreational cyclists as a group tend to be younger, healthier, and more male than the population as a whole, producing a demographic more likely to engage in risky behavior than the general population. As long as bicycling on practical errands seems dangerous or difficult, it's going to be the same sort of people willing to give it a try.
1. Someone who rides for fun and health already has the confidence in their fitness to ride for considerable distances, to deal with flats and minor mechanical issues, and to handle their bicycle safely.
2. The discomfort of being passed at speed, passed to closely, and interacting with automobile traffic is bound to be lessened for the recreational cyclist because they are will probably already have some experience dealing with these events, and because they will tend to be faster on the bike than the person who doesn't ride recreationally, therefore the relative speed (and perceived danger) of passing automobile traffic will be lower.
3. Recreational cyclists as a group tend to be younger, healthier, and more male than the population as a whole, producing a demographic more likely to engage in risky behavior than the general population. As long as bicycling on practical errands seems dangerous or difficult, it's going to be the same sort of people willing to give it a try.
Last edited by bragi; 02-06-13 at 01:33 AM.
02-06-13, 08:32 AM
#27
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The problem I see in a number of US cities is the trend to separate goods and services from residential areas. Gone are many of the local mom and pop operations that were with in walking distance, to having large malls and industrial parks that are located in areas that are only easily accessible by a motor vehicle, making the general public unwilling to take up walking/cycling on a regular basis.
02-06-13, 05:54 PM
#28
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The idea of separate cycling lanes with actual physical barriers between the two paths is a good one. It just won't work in snowy areas unless the local government is willing to buy specially adapted snow removal equipment for them. There are some bicycle lanes and multi use paths in the Helena Montana area. The snow plows don't plow the bicycle lanes until the car lanes are cleared. Usually that takes a couple of days after the snow has stopped falling. There are some smaller snow plows for the multiple use paths but they don't come out right away. It takes a week or so to get the paths cleared. Even then the skinny sections on overpasses won't get cleared at all because their machine won't fit in it. Only warm weather will clear those sections.
Some very nice guy with an ATV and plow blade cleared the multi use path three weeks ago. It was about two miles long. It was easy to tell because the width of the cleared patch was less than four feet wide. He was unable to clear the overpass section because it was just thick ice from previous snow falls.
Some very nice guy with an ATV and plow blade cleared the multi use path three weeks ago. It was about two miles long. It was easy to tell because the width of the cleared patch was less than four feet wide. He was unable to clear the overpass section because it was just thick ice from previous snow falls.
I have seen a guy on a ATW owned by the city plowing a temporary MUP on the frozen lake in the winter to allow the public to walk and bike there.
02-06-13, 06:04 PM
#29
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I Love "On Street Bike Lanes", they give me a tiny cushion from the "cagers" and they actually let me get to the places I need to get to! Bike PATHS/Trails on the other hand are "kinda nice" BUT they usually, meander here and their and go, roundabout, thru pretty area's and take me 2 to 3 times as long to get to my destination!! They are EXPENSIVE to build next to "re-striping" the already paved streets, sure it would be "heaven" if they were "protected" with walls, etc. but it would be GREAT if my city did LOTS more "Bike Lanes" and less pretty paths to nowhere! JMHO, YMMV.
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02-06-13, 06:24 PM
#30
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My preferences in order, for what it's worth, regarding bike infrastructure:
Completely segregated infrastructure (obviously this isn't the whole answer, but my area actually has a somewhat useful bike arterial that doesn't exactly parallel the main freeway through town) - And, some segregated infrastructure can help a lot - a bicycle-only connecting road between subdivisions, for instance, opens up the 25 mph roads in subdivisions to bicycle traffic avoiding main routes, while not allowing cars to cut through
Physically segregated but parallel infrastructure (dedicated traffic lights, physical barriers to cars entering the area)
Semi-segregated (significant space where cars cannot go, but no barriers)
Shoulder bike lane of significant width, in areas where there is no or very little turning car traffic, and shoulder is maintained
Centered sharrows
No bike lane at all
Door zone bike lane
Shoulder bike lane that is too narrow, unmaintained, and/or there's too much turning car traffic
(Mind you, I am a motorist too... LCF would be nice, but in this area, doing much beyond just surviving (as opposed to living) would require a century round trip.)
Completely segregated infrastructure (obviously this isn't the whole answer, but my area actually has a somewhat useful bike arterial that doesn't exactly parallel the main freeway through town) - And, some segregated infrastructure can help a lot - a bicycle-only connecting road between subdivisions, for instance, opens up the 25 mph roads in subdivisions to bicycle traffic avoiding main routes, while not allowing cars to cut through
Physically segregated but parallel infrastructure (dedicated traffic lights, physical barriers to cars entering the area)
Semi-segregated (significant space where cars cannot go, but no barriers)
Shoulder bike lane of significant width, in areas where there is no or very little turning car traffic, and shoulder is maintained
Centered sharrows
No bike lane at all
Door zone bike lane
Shoulder bike lane that is too narrow, unmaintained, and/or there's too much turning car traffic
(Mind you, I am a motorist too... LCF would be nice, but in this area, doing much beyond just surviving (as opposed to living) would require a century round trip.)
Last edited by bhtooefr; 02-06-13 at 06:33 PM.
02-06-13, 06:44 PM
#31
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That's what I used to think: I thought bike lanes were an expensive luxury that didn't actually improve the ease or safety of cycling in urban areas, and alienated motorists besides. I thought it was just as easy to use car lanes, and that the money was better spent on road maintenance. I have gradually changed my mind about this. Bike lanes are cheap compared to maintaining car lanes, newer bike lane designs are safer, and their very presence encourages novices to give transportational cycling a try. Most importantly, they give cyclists a much-needed, dedicated small patch of real estate on more heavily-traveled arterials. On busier streets with no bike lane, sometimes you have to take the lane for safety reasons, and drivers who've never bicycled before think you're making an obnoxious statement and get irate; with bicycle lanes, these petty little conflicts simply don't happen.
02-06-13, 07:27 PM
#32
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One of the reasons I like to see somewhat segregated bike infrastructure (going thru town... not out in the country...) is that it encourages more people to use their bikes for transportation.
I feel pretty comfortable with biking to almost anywhere I need to be, so an extra bike lane here or there isn't going to change my life a lot.
However, I'm certain that many people would like to cycle on city streets, but are too afraid...
I feel pretty comfortable with biking to almost anywhere I need to be, so an extra bike lane here or there isn't going to change my life a lot.
However, I'm certain that many people would like to cycle on city streets, but are too afraid...
02-10-13, 10:54 AM
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Separate Paths : Epic Win
Painted on bike lanes : Pretty much only useless expect you can yell at drivers who piss you off when they are driving in the bike lane or when they hit you and you can get them charged/sue'd etc.
Normal roads (shoulder): Normal, rather happy with just this option.
Normal roads (no shoulder): Bloody hell.....
Painted on bike lanes : Pretty much only useless expect you can yell at drivers who piss you off when they are driving in the bike lane or when they hit you and you can get them charged/sue'd etc.
Normal roads (shoulder): Normal, rather happy with just this option.
Normal roads (no shoulder): Bloody hell.....
02-10-13, 01:22 PM
#34
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As a commuter, painted lanes are just fine with me. Those million-dollar-a-mile (yes) separated ones they build in Vancouver, complete with ugly concrete planter boxes, seem like overkill.
02-10-13, 01:40 PM
#35
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It would depend on the difference in ridership numbers, if the numbers remained the same, or if the collision rate was very low to begin with, then yes it might be overkill, but if ridership increased several fold, and collision rates dropped considerably, then maybe not.
02-10-13, 03:20 PM
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Really? A million dollars a mile? Our 75 miles of physically separated lanes cost less than 35 million euros and have been a huge success.
Last edited by Ekdog; 02-10-13 at 03:24 PM.
02-10-13, 04:23 PM
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At one of the last city council meetings I attended our green coalition proposed additional bike lanes connecting the two closest cities. The city engineer got up and listed the cost of three twpes of bike lanes. The painted ones, the designated bike lanes with signs and the seperated ones. The cost for the seperate ones was $1,000,000.00 a mile. It seems as if everyone gets a share, the city, county, and state. But then he said the painted ones would be $200,000.00 a mile. I was incredulous so I asked if it would cost less if they simply put them in during repaving when the equipment and crews were already in use. He said no, the study would still have to be done, 20 to 30k depending on the consulting firm. A seperate crew had to paint the lines and put up the signs designating it as a bike lane with no parking. I asked if they were serious that a wide white line and 4 signs, I figured one every quarter mile, would cost 200k. Without a smile he said no, 8 signs one each 1/8th mile and the cost to designate it as a class 1 bike lane making sure the road bed went all the way to the curn with no cut for a concrete gutter would cost 200k per mile. I cannot testify that any of this information is true but I can testify that was what the politicos were telling us.
02-10-13, 05:42 PM
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It is California, they know how to get government regulation very wrong (note, I'm not against government regulation, I'm against STUPID government regulation, and this IS California).
In 2009, Newark, OH claimed it would be $1200/mi for sharrows, $5400/mi for a (presumably unprotected shoulder) bike lane, and $192k/mi for a dedicated MUP (page 23): https://www.newarkohio.net/city/Onlin...udy-Report.pdf
In 2009, Newark, OH claimed it would be $1200/mi for sharrows, $5400/mi for a (presumably unprotected shoulder) bike lane, and $192k/mi for a dedicated MUP (page 23): https://www.newarkohio.net/city/Onlin...udy-Report.pdf
02-10-13, 10:16 PM
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We had a mile section of the Rock Island Trail here in Co. Springs, mostly destroyed by a heavy rain and HAIL storm early spring 2012, they finally re-did the section with a nice 12 ft. wide concrete, it cost a little over $400,000 dollars!!!! :O
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02-12-13, 10:26 PM
#40
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The ones in my city are 100% useless. They recently installed over 20 miles of them and I will not ride in any of them. First the city does not perform any upkeep on them. They are full of sand and glass, or car parts. In the winter they are just another place to stack the snow. Second they are within 3-5 feet of the parked cars so even if you ride on the far left side you are still in the door zone. I have sent pdf files describing how both Amsterdam and Copenhagen design their paths to the city coordinators in hope they will wisen up, though I have little hope they will.
02-13-13, 01:12 PM
#41
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At one of the last city council meetings I attended our green coalition proposed additional bike lanes connecting the two closest cities. The city engineer got up and listed the cost of three twpes of bike lanes. The painted ones, the designated bike lanes with signs and the seperated ones. The cost for the seperate ones was $1,000,000.00 a mile. It seems as if everyone gets a share, the city, county, and state. But then he said the painted ones would be $200,000.00 a mile. I was incredulous so I asked if it would cost less if they simply put them in during repaving when the equipment and crews were already in use. He said no, the study would still have to be done, 20 to 30k depending on the consulting firm. A seperate crew had to paint the lines and put up the signs designating it as a bike lane with no parking. I asked if they were serious that a wide white line and 4 signs, I figured one every quarter mile, would cost 200k. Without a smile he said no, 8 signs one each 1/8th mile and the cost to designate it as a class 1 bike lane making sure the road bed went all the way to the curn with no cut for a concrete gutter would cost 200k per mile. I cannot testify that any of this information is true but I can testify that was what the politicos were telling us.
Then again, that DOT summary estimates a 12' MUP at $253,118.06 (not sure why the precision, but that's what it says). However, I'm guessing that's for pure construction when they don't have to remove any existing infrastructure.
02-13-13, 09:45 PM
#42
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The ones in my city are 100% useless. They recently installed over 20 miles of them and I will not ride in any of them. First the city does not perform any upkeep on them. They are full of sand and glass, or car parts. In the winter they are just another place to stack the snow. Second they are within 3-5 feet of the parked cars so even if you ride on the far left side you are still in the door zone. I have sent pdf files describing how both Amsterdam and Copenhagen design their paths to the city coordinators in hope they will wisen up, though I have little hope they will.
02-27-13, 05:33 PM
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My city has about 30 miles of very useful separated trails/MUPs (very useful to me because they go places and because I bought a house near one), but has recently added about 100 miles of painted bike lanes. I was skeptical of them at first, and some could be better designed, - but all in all I've found that cars (after about 6 months of getting used to them) have generally become somewhat better behaved. I think because they, consciously or subconsciously, see the lanes as giving bike legitimacy on the roads.
