Short summary of Dutch bicycle infrastructure development
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Short summary of Dutch bicycle infrastructure development
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o
I kind of liked this video, but I'm not sure the Dutch experience has anything useful to offer to the western hemisphere. For one thing, the Dutch had a much more intact remaining bicycle culture when they tried to revive it. This also happened in the 1970's, which was a time before the "conservative" elements in western culture developed their now-infamous ability to ferociously shout down anyone who disagrees with them. The most telling moment for me was when they get to the part about the large numbers of children dying in traffic being the element that tips the scales in favor of bicycle infrastructure. In the US, this sadly would never happen. If children get injured or killed by cars, motorists are not to be blamed, and certainly not our infrastructure; instead, politicos and the media go after the horrid parents who foolishly think it might be okay to let their children ride a bike or walk somewhere.
I kind of liked this video, but I'm not sure the Dutch experience has anything useful to offer to the western hemisphere. For one thing, the Dutch had a much more intact remaining bicycle culture when they tried to revive it. This also happened in the 1970's, which was a time before the "conservative" elements in western culture developed their now-infamous ability to ferociously shout down anyone who disagrees with them. The most telling moment for me was when they get to the part about the large numbers of children dying in traffic being the element that tips the scales in favor of bicycle infrastructure. In the US, this sadly would never happen. If children get injured or killed by cars, motorists are not to be blamed, and certainly not our infrastructure; instead, politicos and the media go after the horrid parents who foolishly think it might be okay to let their children ride a bike or walk somewhere.
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I agree that it is problematic to attempt to sort out the many differences that could account for the differential rates of bicycle use in Northern Europe and North America. I am fascinated by the folks who constantly insist it is all about the physical infrastructure and ignore the legal structure and cultural factors.
I know I have beaten this horse many a time here, but while the Danes and Dutch were initiating their bike culture, we had it going in Davis at a much higher rate than they have achieved. If it was all about the infrastructure, then we couldn't have done it since we had almost none. Further, since Davis has spent the last twenty five years adding enormous amounts of segregated infrastructure only to see the number of people riding bikes dramatically fall off, it sure doesn't look like building infrastructure is sufficient or even necessary to get high levels of ridership. Many people are currently trying to recreate what was once the Bike Capitol of the World. Thankfully, a few of them are taking an important first step: admitting that ridership is currently much lower than it was in the past.
https://www.davisenterprise.com/forum...the-data-show/
Let's be careful of assigning the moderate success of the Dutch, Danes, Fins and Germans to the concrete, paint and signals. They have many other features that likely play larger roles like strict liability, abundant and automated traffic enforcement, social expectations of civilized behavior that are well beyond what is found in N. America, and a lack of hopelessness (near-universal access to health care, food and housing), all of which take some of the incentive to travel about in steel cocoons away from many people.
I know I have beaten this horse many a time here, but while the Danes and Dutch were initiating their bike culture, we had it going in Davis at a much higher rate than they have achieved. If it was all about the infrastructure, then we couldn't have done it since we had almost none. Further, since Davis has spent the last twenty five years adding enormous amounts of segregated infrastructure only to see the number of people riding bikes dramatically fall off, it sure doesn't look like building infrastructure is sufficient or even necessary to get high levels of ridership. Many people are currently trying to recreate what was once the Bike Capitol of the World. Thankfully, a few of them are taking an important first step: admitting that ridership is currently much lower than it was in the past.
Originally Posted by Robb Davis, Davis Bicycles!
Adults who grew up in Davis will often harken back to their experience as students, noting that “everyone” biked or walked to school in the past. Most cannot recall when the trend to driving children to school took off, but most would concur that bicycling and walking are at much lower levels than in the past.
Let's be careful of assigning the moderate success of the Dutch, Danes, Fins and Germans to the concrete, paint and signals. They have many other features that likely play larger roles like strict liability, abundant and automated traffic enforcement, social expectations of civilized behavior that are well beyond what is found in N. America, and a lack of hopelessness (near-universal access to health care, food and housing), all of which take some of the incentive to travel about in steel cocoons away from many people.
#3
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They also aren't ashamed of it. Outside a few hubs in the US (and maybe still within them) biking for transport makes you a poor person.
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The most telling moment for me was when they get to the part about the large numbers of children dying in traffic being the element that tips the scales in favor of bicycle infrastructure. In the US, this sadly would never happen. If children get injured or killed by cars, motorists are not to be blamed, and certainly not our infrastructure; instead, politicos and the media go after the horrid parents who foolishly think it might be okay to let their children ride a bike or walk somewhere.
Traffic enforcement is still a major weak link, as most motorists who kill don't get so much as a traffic ticket, but there's a burgeoning grass roots movement protesting traffic deaths in the streets, and the Mayor is looking into stiffening traffic laws (but that's hampered in part by the city's dependence on the state legislature), and has charged the new police commissioner with reforming enforcement. What this will look like again remains to be seen.
Of course this is not to say that New York represents the rest of America, but then it's a big, complicated place with lots of powerful, entrenched interests, where cultural and political change is far from easy and there's been plenty of backlash against the changes taking place. I'm not trying to be pollyanna and suggest a utopian sea change will happen tomorrow, but the political and social will for change is starting to appear and take root, and New York isn't the only place where this is happening. I realize that change will involve lots of local struggles, and other places look very different, but there's at least a glimmer of hope that change is possible.
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It seems to me the biggest reason for people riding more than driving there is the high tax on new vehicle purchases, up to 45% of list price. The lack of reliance on a domestic auto industry's sales as a driver of the national economy makes it less politically risky for legislators to make cycling a priority.
#6
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It seems to me the biggest reason for people riding more than driving there is the high tax on new vehicle purchases, up to 45% of list price. The lack of reliance on a domestic auto industry's sales as a driver of the national economy makes it less politically risky for legislators to make cycling a priority.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.VEH.NVEH.P3
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This is a problem that we face, that is broader than just cycling in my opinion. Our fundamental societal belief that appearing to be of limited means is shameful. I'm not sure when it happened but at some point I realized that I don't care. Of all the poor people I've known, and all the more well to do, I can find nothing at all to suggest that one group is more industrious, more moral, smarter, or generally different in any personal way from the other beyond perhaps the objects of their prejudices, and I don't object to being associated with whatever class a person chooses to. Class consciousness is a barrier to cycling, and so many other things as well.
#8
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This is a problem that we face, that is broader than just cycling in my opinion. Our fundamental societal belief that appearing to be of limited means is shameful. I'm not sure when it happened but at some point I realized that I don't care. Of all the poor people I've known, and all the more well to do, I can find nothing at all to suggest that one group is more industrious, more moral, smarter, or generally different in any personal way from the other beyond perhaps the objects of their prejudices, and I don't object to being associated with whatever class a person chooses to. Class consciousness is a barrier to cycling, and so many other things as well.
M.
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It seems to me the biggest reason for people riding more than driving there is the high tax on new vehicle purchases, up to 45% of list price. The lack of reliance on a domestic auto industry's sales as a driver of the national economy makes it less politically risky for legislators to make cycling a priority.
But as a counterpoint, Norway also taxes the piss out of cars, has super expensive and complicated driver licensing procedures, has badly undersized roads, has huge road toll fees everywhere, has no automotive industry of its own, and still the cars are very dominant. Heck, Norwegians even regard themselves as outdoors people. Then they drive to work every day.
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I have noticed that Norwegian bikers are fascinated by kitting themselves out, even for pretty mild commutes, and I imagine that it has a lot to do with asserting status, whether they admit it to themselves or not.
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I don't really know what to say... but we have some pretty major perspective differences here.
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Especially when it was a one industry town dominated by college age students. I'd be interested in reading any references that document the alleged super high bicycle rates of Davis, CA of its golden bicycle years.
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According to this, "Davis... had a bicycle 'mode share,' of 24% in the 1990 census."
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According to this, "Davis... had a bicycle 'mode share,' of 24% in the 1990 census."
As trike_guy and I have already pointed out, a relatively fair weather, small town dominated by a college campus and college age students and little else, is not comparable to a large city or country with people of all ages, occupational, wealth and family status, and multiple destinations at greater distance from each other.
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Hardly seems to support BCarfree's beaten horse that, "but while the Danes and Dutch were initiating their bike culture, we had it going in Davis at a much higher rate than they have achieved."
As trike_guy and I have already pointed out, a relatively fair weather, small town dominated by a college campus and college age students and little else, is not comparable to a large city or country with people of all ages, occupational, wealth and family status, and multiple destinations at greater distance from each other.
As trike_guy and I have already pointed out, a relatively fair weather, small town dominated by a college campus and college age students and little else, is not comparable to a large city or country with people of all ages, occupational, wealth and family status, and multiple destinations at greater distance from each other.
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Both countries have a tax reduction for vehicles intended to carry things rather than people (two or three seats and a cargo area). A fairly large number of people use this "loophole" to drive around SUVs with the rear seats removed at a substantial price reduction. Luxury branded SUV "vans".
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I share your doubts about the comparison that was made with the Danes and the Dutch. I was responding to post number twelve, in which you said you were "interested in reading any references that document the alleged super high bicycle rates of Davis, CA of its golden bicycle years." A mode share of 24% is nothing to sneeze at, even in a university town.
B. Carfree has posted numerous times on BF about some fantastically high %'s back in the good old days before the installation of dreaded bike lanes in the 60's or before (far better than the Dutch or Danes) and I am still wondering what his reference is other than a foggy memory.
#20
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Oh I agree Davis' numbers were and still are impressive by comparison with almost any other location in the U.S. to include other college campus towns.
B. Carfree has posted numerous times on BF about some fantastically high %'s back in the good old days before the installation of dreaded bike lanes in the 60's or before (far better than the Dutch or Danes) and I am still wondering what his reference is other than a foggy memory.
B. Carfree has posted numerous times on BF about some fantastically high %'s back in the good old days before the installation of dreaded bike lanes in the 60's or before (far better than the Dutch or Danes) and I am still wondering what his reference is other than a foggy memory.
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I agree that it is problematic to attempt to sort out the many differences that could account for the differential rates of bicycle use in Northern Europe and North America. I am fascinated by the folks who constantly insist it is all about the physical infrastructure and ignore the legal structure and cultural factors.
I know I have beaten this horse many a time here, but while the Danes and Dutch were initiating their bike culture, we had it going in Davis at a much higher rate than they have achieved. If it was all about the infrastructure, then we couldn't have done it since we had almost none. Further, since Davis has spent the last twenty five years adding enormous amounts of segregated infrastructure only to see the number of people riding bikes dramatically fall off, it sure doesn't look like building infrastructure is sufficient or even necessary to get high levels of ridership. Many people are currently trying to recreate what was once the Bike Capitol of the World. Thankfully, a few of them are taking an important first step: admitting that ridership is currently much lower than it was in the past.
https://www.davisenterprise.com/forum...the-data-show/
Let's be careful of assigning the moderate success of the Dutch, Danes, Fins and Germans to the concrete, paint and signals. They have many other features that likely play larger roles like strict liability, abundant and automated traffic enforcement, social expectations of civilized behavior that are well beyond what is found in N. America, and a lack of hopelessness (near-universal access to health care, food and housing), all of which take some of the incentive to travel about in steel cocoons away from many people.
I know I have beaten this horse many a time here, but while the Danes and Dutch were initiating their bike culture, we had it going in Davis at a much higher rate than they have achieved. If it was all about the infrastructure, then we couldn't have done it since we had almost none. Further, since Davis has spent the last twenty five years adding enormous amounts of segregated infrastructure only to see the number of people riding bikes dramatically fall off, it sure doesn't look like building infrastructure is sufficient or even necessary to get high levels of ridership. Many people are currently trying to recreate what was once the Bike Capitol of the World. Thankfully, a few of them are taking an important first step: admitting that ridership is currently much lower than it was in the past.
https://www.davisenterprise.com/forum...the-data-show/
Let's be careful of assigning the moderate success of the Dutch, Danes, Fins and Germans to the concrete, paint and signals. They have many other features that likely play larger roles like strict liability, abundant and automated traffic enforcement, social expectations of civilized behavior that are well beyond what is found in N. America, and a lack of hopelessness (near-universal access to health care, food and housing), all of which take some of the incentive to travel about in steel cocoons away from many people.
#22
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My helmet doesn't keep me off my bike so I'm afraid I don't follow.
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That may well have been a part of the fall off in cycling that started in the mid-late-'80s. During the years when ridership was significantly higher than driving, there were not only very few helmets in use (other than on training rides), there were no helmet laws. However, it wasn't until 1994 that CA expanded its helmet law to minors over the age of five. By then, we had long since entered the bicycling dark ages in Davis. That doesn't mean that there was no impact from the initial helmet law for children age five and under which was passed in 1986. It could well be that the mere existence of such a law created the impression that cycling is too dangerous for children and that such a perception was sufficient to negatively impact the number of people willing to ride.
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Webshots is bailing out, if you find any of my posts with corrupt picture files and want to see them corrected please let me know. :(
ISO: A late 1980's Giant Iguana MTB frameset (or complete bike) 23" Red with yellow graphics.
"Cycling should be a way of life, not a hobby.
RIDE, YOU FOOL, RIDE!"_Nicodemus
"Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
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Which one would you rather have under your butt at 30mph?"_krazygluon
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Now I get frequent glimpses of home life for children in my world and it is so different. The children stay indoors and mostly play video games or other inactive pasttimes. They don't go anywhere alone, and they've been taught to fear that.
I loved my childhood like it was. I'm so glad I grew up when I did.
We lived in a big three story house that used to be officers quarters during the civil war. One of my favorite memories is a big oak tree in the yard that hung over the house. My bedroom was in the attic. Late at night I would sometimes climb out on the roof, hop onto a branch of that tree, make my way to the ground and go exploring (unbeknownst to my parents of course). I think most children today would be terrified of such freedom (I descended the tree to avoid being detected descending the stairs inside).
Last edited by Walter S; 03-01-14 at 05:51 PM.