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L.A. Breaks Driving Addiction as Bike-Train Commutes Grow

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L.A. Breaks Driving Addiction as Bike-Train Commutes Grow

Old 06-18-13, 10:55 PM
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L.A. Breaks Driving Addiction as Bike-Train Commutes Grow

I just saw this article on Bloomberg.com (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...utes-grow.html) regarding bike-train commutes.

The e-bike forum of bikeforums has been getting several requests by Californians and San Francisco residents in particular about purchasing/using e-bikes.

The bike sharing and bumming rides sections toward the bottom of the article are particularly interesting.

I also ran across this very interesting BBC documentary on YouTube regarding fuel theft in the UK and Ireland: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lmHs...508A&index=132

I've seen a few news clips of people in the USA stealing fuel but do you think it will get as bad as the UK?

I guess at some point in the near future we will all entertain the idea of living car free or resort to being fuel thieves.
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Old 06-19-13, 07:44 AM
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Well, we're fuel thieves anyway - how much do you think middle easterners really profit from our oil demands? No matter. I can't speak to how bad it is in the UK but I do know years back when the gas spikes hit the US, people were stealing gas here. My father got hit while he was at work and resorted to a locking gas cap.

I wouldn't have thought LA and bikes. Then again, I've never been to LA. My perception of it is a giant hell city overwhelmed with seas of cars and crime.

So basically the 80's.

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Old 06-19-13, 10:12 AM
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I hate to be unfashionably positive, but I think it's fantastic that Americans are driving less for the first time since the automobile was invented. I know that saving money is a big factor, but people are also driving less for fun, fitness, and because they want to do something about pollution.
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Old 06-19-13, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by MEversbergII View Post
Well, we're fuel thieves anyway - how much do you think middle easterners really profit from our oil demands?
OK, so the Middle eastern oil barons(bandits) make money hand over fist and elbow deep, and the general population THEY live with sees little to none -- how does that make US thieves? You can't even say we're CONSPIRATORS, since all they would have to do is say, "We don't want to sell to you anymore" if we put up ANY sort of resistance or suggested humane behavior. THEY have what we think we NEED (and in some cases, for some purposes, DO), and couldn't care less about anything else than making themselves rich supplying it. To hell with the poor guy down the street, I'M GETTING MINE! THAT'S the mindset.

Nah, we're more like fuel W*H*O*R*E*S -- not much we won't do to keep it coming in.
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Old 06-19-13, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
I hate to be unfashionably positive, but I think it's fantastic that Americans are driving less for the first time since the automobile was invented. I know that saving money is a big factor, but people are also driving less for fun, fitness, and because they want to do something about pollution.
Good point; however, on the other side of the world there are dozens of Chinese and Indians buying cars for the first time for each American deciding to drive less. If the rest of the world decides they want to live like us Americans we will end up cooking our planet. Perhaps we can lead by example and hope the rest of the world will take notice.
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Old 06-19-13, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by EBikeFL View Post
I just saw this article on Bloomberg.com (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...utes-grow.html) regarding bike-train commutes.
I believe the breaking of the auto-addiction of due to the pooring of America. People can no longer afford to buy or lease new vehicles. In the UK, it's even worse because they can't afford the fuel so they are resorting to buying it from an underground economy. Don't worry, we'll get there in about 10 years.
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Old 06-19-13, 09:06 PM
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That was a misleading heading. Though I could see a lot of interest in Ebikes there are very few statistics indicating the LA is breaking any driving addiction. https://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...s-angeles.html
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Old 06-20-13, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
That was a misleading heading. Though I could see a lot of interest in Ebikes there are very few statistics indicating the LA is breaking any driving addiction. https://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...s-angeles.html
That article is a bit inconclusive either way. It said "congestion" dropped 22% in 2012 as part of a two year decline, and rebounded 4% in the first quarter of 2013. We don't know yet if it will rebound all the way to the prior peaks. Also the LA population is growing and jobs are returning, so any increased congestion there could simply be due to more people living there, or resuming working, some of whom drive, rather than the average person driving more.

Last edited by cooker; 06-20-13 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 06-20-13, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
That article is a bit inconclusive either way. It said "congestion" dropped 22% in 2012 as part of a two year decline, and rebounded 4% in the first quarter of 2013. We don't know yet if it will rebound all the way to the prior peaks. Also the LA population is growing, so any increased congestion there could simply be due to more people, some of whom drive, rather than the average person driving more.
I took a quick search of walking and cycling stats for LA and both are either stagnate or in the case of walking down a bit. At least over a 10 year census. But living in the area I will still say the "LA breaks the Driving addiction" is pure wishful thinking. If LA moved back to number one in worst commute area it sure didn't do it after "Breaking" any "Driving Addiction". Rebounded indicates something other than E-bikes are driving commuters in LA. You simply can't move back to number one in traffic congestion and at the same time, break the driving addiction, I have to toss the fertilizer flag on that one. Unlike saving Tinker Bell wishing something was true doesn't make it happen.
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Old 06-20-13, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
I took a quick search of walking and cycling stats for LA and both are either stagnate or in the case of walking down a bit. At least over a 10 year census. But living in the area I will still say the "LA breaks the Driving addiction" is pure wishful thinking. If LA moved back to number one in worst commute area it sure didn't do it after "Breaking" any "Driving Addiction". Rebounded indicates something other than E-bikes are driving commuters in LA. You simply can't move back to number one in traffic congestion and at the same time, break the driving addiction, I have to toss the fertilizer flag on that one. Unlike saving Tinker Bell wishing something was true doesn't make it happen.
Got a link?
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Old 06-20-13, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Got a link?
Does it matter? Do you believe even for a nano second LA has or is breaking the driving addiction? If I posted links showing LA as the worst area for Traffic and if the Study is done by Texas A&M would that show you the OP was blowing smoke? Yes he posted a political spin without any real stats to support it. That being said LA is at the top or near the top on just about everyone's list of cities with the worst traffic. Just one though I am pretty sure you knew this before you even attempted to swallow that LA is Breaking any addiction in any significant way. https://www.weather.com/activities/dr...oriz-plain.css
Forbs and several others suggest much of the same thing in addition to the study referenced in the post I made earlier. https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...ities/2127661/ Cycling is still less than 1 percent in LA after all of these years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Los_Angeles

But to get a quick view go to the Horses mouth. The city of LA itself. Page 21 in case you still think there is a shred of credibility to a Post that looks like it belonged in one of those mags about bigfoot or Elvis still being alive. https://ladot.lacity.org/pdf/PDF10.pdf

It is called grasping at straws by some and misleading by others. So the flag is still being tossed and I believe the review will be upheld.
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Old 06-20-13, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Does it matter? Do you believe even for a nano second LA has or is breaking the driving addiction?
I agree the cited article didn't provide huge evidence of significant behavioural change already occurring - but there was some: a reduction in car registrations in LA county and increased transit ridership - which might mean something.

On the other hand the article shows that the city's attitudes and policies are undergoing quite a shift - more investment in cycling and rail infrastructure, the election of officials who campaigned on alternate transportation platforms (is that like a flat pedal?). So the larger scale behavioural changes may follow.

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Old 06-20-13, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
But to get a quick view go to the Horses mouth. The city of LA itself. Page 21 in case you still think there is a shred of credibility to a Post that looks like it belonged in one of those mags about bigfoot or Elvis still being alive. https://ladot.lacity.org/pdf/PDF10.pdf
Okay, that link shows 2005 work-commute data, with about 80% of work commutes by car, 10% by public transit, 3% on foot and 0.6% by bike. So the question for this thread is whether these proportions have shifted since then.
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Old 06-20-13, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Okay, that link shows 2005 work-commute data, with about 80% of work commutes by car, 10% by public transit, 3% on foot and 0.6% by bike. So the question for this thread is whether these proportions have shifted since then.
Around here... no question. And there's big demand for more cycling infrastructure.
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Old 06-20-13, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
Okay, that link shows 2005 work-commute data, with about 80% of work commutes by car, 10% by public transit, 3% on foot and 0.6% by bike. So the question for this thread is whether these proportions have shifted since then.
While the spin might be on here there is no evidence to show any Addiction has been broken. LA is still rated as one of the worst cities for traffic. No addiction breaking there. Cyclists and walkers still represent less than 5 percent of the commuters. No addiction breaking there. Addiction breaking is like giving up drinking or drugs. If you are still doing it 80 percent of the time you are still addicted.

I have no problem with the concept that things have to change I have a problem with declaring victory when no battles have been won. My statement stands, the title to this thread is misleading. Maybe not the need but for the addiction to be broken but as long as LA is rated by people the do studies as a traffic monster, just ask Forbes Magazine. Their addiction is still there and no amount of wishful thinking has changed that.
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Old 06-20-13, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
While the spin might be on here there is no evidence to show any Addiction has been broken. LA is still rated as one of the worst cities for traffic. No addiction breaking there. Cyclists and walkers still represent less than 5 percent of the commuters. No addiction breaking there. Addiction breaking is like giving up drinking or drugs. If you are still doing it 80 percent of the time you are still addicted.

I have no problem with the concept that things have to change I have a problem with declaring victory when no battles have been won. My statement stands, the title to this thread is misleading. Maybe not the need but for the addiction to be broken but as long as LA is rated by people the do studies as a traffic monster, just ask Forbes Magazine. Their addiction is still there and no amount of wishful thinking has changed that.
https://www.freakonomics.com/2009/03/...ing-and-delay/
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Old 06-21-13, 02:53 PM
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They tend to agree LA has a massive traffic problem and no where does this link indicate the addiction is broken. So yes I can agree. I had to make a trip to LA a few weeks ago and made the mistake of driving during the day. If they broke any addiction I sure couldn't see it. LA Traffic is one reason I fell in love with Metro-Link. Despite the protests by the LA bus riders union.
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Old 06-21-13, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
They tend to agree LA has a massive traffic problem and no where does this link indicate the addiction is broken. So yes I can agree. I had to make a trip to LA a few weeks ago and made the mistake of driving during the day. If they broke any addiction I sure couldn't see it. LA Traffic is one reason I fell in love with Metro-Link. Despite the protests by the LA bus riders union.
I just thought you would be interested in the article, since this is an issue that you are evidently passionate about.
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Old 06-21-13, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
I just thought you would be interested in the article, since this is an issue that you are evidently passionate about.
Thank you and as you can tell I trusted you enough to read before I posted. I did find it interesting. But like I have said before I would defer to your perceptions of Detroit and the surrounding areas more than I would from someone based in New York. I can assure you someone posting from Florida doesn't have any concept of what Traffic in LA is like. I have grown up in this area and the difference between traffic today and 15 years ago is easy for anyone that ever worked and commuted in LA to see. I only question the concept and the language of the title, "LA breaks driving addiction" Not LA is working on breaking, or is moving towards breaking but Breaks as if it has both happened and can be seen by the commuters. It is the same use of English as someone might say, "The Tigers break losing trend." They have to get above 500 to do so. But for LA breaking the driving addiction? Piffel I say, at this rate the next ice age will get here before those of us that drive here can see it.
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Old 06-21-13, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Thank you and as you can tell I trusted you enough to read before I posted. I did find it interesting. But like I have said before I would defer to your perceptions of Detroit and the surrounding areas more than I would from someone based in New York. I can assure you someone posting from Florida doesn't have any concept of what Traffic in LA is like. I have grown up in this area and the difference between traffic today and 15 years ago is easy for anyone that ever worked and commuted in LA to see. I only question the concept and the language of the title, "LA breaks driving addiction" Not LA is working on breaking, or is moving towards breaking but Breaks as if it has both happened and can be seen by the commuters. It is the same use of English as someone might say, "The Tigers break losing trend." They have to get above 500 to do so. But for LA breaking the driving addiction? Piffel I say, at this rate the next ice age will get here before those of us that drive here can see it.
One point the freakonomic article made is that, by most measures, LA is not the most car dependent American city. Far from it, in fact. IIRC, the only measure LA led in was delays due to congestion.
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Old 06-21-13, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
One point the freakonomic article made is that, by most measures, LA is not the most car dependent American city. Far from it, in fact. IIRC, the only measure LA led in was delays due to congestion.
A fact that has not changed since the demise of the Red Cars. And if anything has gotten worse. As one of the links I posted indicated they put LA back on top of the list as the "worst place for Traffic in 2013. You do not break any addiction and at the same time get worse.
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Old 06-21-13, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
One point the freakonomic article made is that, by most measures, LA is not the most car dependent American city. Far from it, in fact. IIRC, the only measure LA led in was delays due to congestion.
Does that mean L.A. has broken/changed its driving habits/addiction in any significant way? Or only that some other places are even more car dependent.
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Old 06-21-13, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Does that mean L.A. has broken/changed its driving habits/addiction in any significant way? Or only that some other places are even more car dependent.
The latter, IMO. But some longitudinal data would be nice.
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Old 06-22-13, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
The latter, IMO.
I concur.
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Old 06-22-13, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I concur.
Driving has been stagnant or down in North America for the last few years, for the first time in history. But IMO it's too soon to know if this is just a blip due to the economy and higher car/fuel costs. Transit use has increased steadily since the 1990s, except in the worst years of the recession. Bike use is too poorly measured to reliably detect trends, IMO.

added: These are national figures, not Los Angeles.
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