adh

Thanks for your feedback, although I can't help but feel that it was a bit condescending. Just because I am new to this website does not mean that I'm new to cycling.

In the past, I have been carfree for many years at a time; I am no stranger to that lifestyle, and I enjoy using my bike for utility as well. My wife and I just had our first child a few months ago, which prompted me to buy a car. I'm sure you'll be able to give me many examples of folks who have been carfree with a newborn/infant, but for us it wasn't practical.

My point about the size and topography of Holland is simply this: As a car owner myself, I think it's pretty cool that I can chuck my bike in a car and drive to a place that offers different topography, roads, and trails. I know that I can ride to those places, but sometimes that's not realistic.

I appreciate that this forum is dedicated to the carfree lifestyle, but I was just commenting on the video that was posted here from my perspective (currently as a car owner). I didn't think I needed to start new threads in the Advocacy and Safety Forums, but I guess next time I'll be more careful where I post.

-Andrew

Ekdog

Was all of the fat squeezed into her uterus? No, it was deposited quite evenly throughout her body.

Roody

Sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending. I am aware that it takes some new members a while to catch on to the Byzantine structure of bikeforums. If you don't want any assistance, I won't take the time to provide it.

kookaburra1701

There's also the fact that we use corn in so much of our foods - you feed corn to animals you want fatten up quick. Then there's all of the growth hormones we give to our livestock, that we then consume...bad air quality leading to use of steroids for respiratory ailments, etc.

kookaburra1701

I'm not a mayo or ranch fan (in fact when I worked in a restaurant I'd pay my co workers off so I didn't have to take my turn mixing it...) but not gonna lie, I'd eat a brick if it had enough Hollandaise on it.

folder fanatic

There is nothing wrong with using a car & a bicycle together. Or a train and a bicycle, bus and a bicycle, ferry and a bicycle, taxi and a bicycle, whatever happens to be available at the time. Even the dutch opt for these piggyback sort of transportation options when it is the best way to get where they are going. What you are describing is more or a racer boy/girl sort of sport riding. I did that when I was younger. I grew out of that a long time ago. And I don't care to ride longer than about 6 miles (9.65 km) one way now either if I do use a bike.

Everyone is different. I sure don't care for riding (or driving) fast anymore. Too much traffic. But 25-30 years or more ago, it was a different riding environment. I was a speed freak as well back then as it was safe even without a helmet (there really were none in use then except for formal racing).

Oh please. I always liked the idea of a separated bike path from regular auto heavy speeding uncaring traffic. My hair is now too short to flow freely in the wind, I don't smoke and I am certainly no Hipster. I just a semi-retired limited-now-for-rare-outings cyclist, 'tis all.

tandempower

I hate stereotyping but Dutch culture takes bicycling for granted and does a lot of conformity-pushing. I think this translates for many Dutch people into a stronger feeling of needing to conform to cultural trends perceived as dominant instead of going with cycling as something that is simply universally good for the reasons that it's good.

Also realize that there is a very strong anti-universalist attitude that is strong in Dutch culture because pluralism is heralded as infallible. Dutch culture, thus, tends to promote the idea that different societies have different norms and whatever norms are dominant in a particular society are simply right for that society. There is also a lot of criticism of American culture in Dutch culture but ultimately I think Dutch culture primes people to accept driving over cycling in the US because of the idea that one should defer to what is perceived as local cultural authority. I say 'perceived' because I think it's also possible to perceive US culture as promoting individual freedom over simply conforming to someone else's culture because it's dominant.

Ultimately, though, there is a culture war between conformism and individualism in US culture with individualism undermined by the barrage of individuality that reduces strong individualism to a mere obsession with cultivating a unique social image. Obviously there's not much individualism in focussing too much attention on getting others to view you as unique (or normal for that matter) so the social focus undermines the ethic of strong individualism generally. Referring back to Dutch culture, there is a strong ideology that strong individualism is nothing more than egoistic selfishness, so people who have given into that kind of social-badgering tend to feel more intense shame and/or embarrassment when making choices that bring them attention as strong individuals. Even when the attention is positive, it sounds sarcastic on some level and there's a humility-compulsion that wants to escape and "just be normal."

I-Like-To-Bike

Are you sure you hate stereotyping?

tandempower

Hope I didn't offend. I really do hate stereotyping, which is why I try to convey my belief that ethnic/national categories don't automatically apply to everyone who has been influenced by the culture. The fact is, though, that Dutch culture is widely analyzed and discussed in this way, so I'm really just interpreting it in terms of why Dutch culture normalizes bike-riding, on the one hand, but also sets people up to conform to other culture when they perceive it as dominant, regardless of whether they think it's superior or not. It's compartmental thinking where no one's supposed to consider anything 'superior' because that would be imperialistic and imperialism is frowned upon as something 'big countries' do, etc.

Anyway, sorry to drop a bunch of sociologese. It's just that once I read this thread, I thought it would be worth contributing some social-cultural analysis.

Really everyone is capable of acting independently of cultural prescriptions and stereotypes. It's just that many either don't bother or they're so proud of 'their ethnicity' that they actively conform to the stereotypes.

Roody

Wasn't 17th century Holland one of the all-time biggest imperialistic nations? What happened to that?

I have read that a spirit of cooperation and anti-competitiveness arose from the Dutch "battle against the sea" (draining the sea to make new territory). Could that have anything to do with their relationship with bicycles? I also imagine that older Dutch people must have been very much influenced by World War II and starvation, oppression, floods, and enormous psychological trauma.

I-Like-To-Bike

It became the 20th century with the Dutch still holding on to their colonial "possessions" until after WW2.

Indonesia was a real prize but I'd say the British outranked the Dutch for colonization, while the Belgium Congo perhaps yielded more treasure than the Dutch got from Indonesia.
Probably no country was more brutal in its colonization than Belgium, (discounting Germany's colonization efforts in Poland.) Read King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa by Adam Hochschild, for more details on the plunder.

On second thought, Spain's brutal colonization efforts in the Western Hemisphere were nothing to sneeze at.

I-Like-To-Bike

No offense taken. Just found your disclaimer about hating to stereotype amusing, considering the verbiage that followed it.

tandempower

There's a pretty good video on youtube about the rise of automobilism and the subsequent move back toward bicycling for various reasons. I think this is it: www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuBdf9jYj7o

I've read about that idea that the sectioning off of polders using cooperative runoff management, etc. forms a historical basis for a more cooperative model of politics. I think it's just political ideology designed to push consensus-building pressure in government because there's a lot of pushing-people-till-they-give-in in Dutch political communication.

I think the imperialism taboo really took off after the third reich. Nowadays it seems like small-country-pride has evolved into this weird passive-aggressive defensiveness against encroachment of foreigners. On the one hand, overt nationalism is frowned upon and associated with (neo) nazism and on the other hand, there is a lot of discourse about how great the social welfare state is, how well-regulated things are, how great the cities are designed, the history, culture, etc.

Because the overt imperialism of the third reich appeared in such negative light, an ideology of non-imperialistic international trade has emerged where a Dutch self-image has been constructed that Dutch are successful in global commerce without forcing themselves on 'others,' i.e. colonizing 'foreigners' with their language and culture. This in turn translates into a sort of "when in Rome" ethic that one should accept cultural norms of 'other places' as legitimate in themselves. It's a sort of anthropological relativism where each country is viewed as having a certain culture that may be different from others but is right in itself because of the view that nations are private sovereigns with absolute cultural authority.

There is a lot of Dutch criticism of the US but ultimately the pressure to defer to cultural authority perceived as sovereign trumps the sense of universally relevant critique, in my observation. Political-philisophical debate is also pretty turbulent and intellectually-labrynth-like, which makes it hard to sort out.

Roody

Interesting! Now how does this all tie into the Dutch love of bikes, or at least the widespread use of bikes?

tandempower

I was just pointing out why I think certain aspects of Dutch culture would push people toward conforming to car-culture when in the US even though the value and rationality of bicycle-transit is recognized generally.

You should really watch the youtube video I posted above if you want to understand why bicycle use is so widespread in that area of Europe.

Roody

Got it. Maybe the OP video isn't exactly objective.

Ekdog

Did you really mean to say that Dutch culture makes people conform to cars? It seems to mean that Holland is just the opposite: one of the countries which is least reliant on the automobile. Take the video you linked to, for instance. They were fed up with the large numbers of people, particularly children, who were being killed by cars, the reliance on imported oil and the effects of a car-centric transport system on the environment, so they stood up and demanded better cycling infrastructure. That hardly sounds like conformist behaviour to me.

wahoonc

You forgot to bold when in the US... aka the "When in Rome do as the Romans do..."

Aaron

Ekdog

Okay, you're right. I misunderstoond what he was saying.

Roody

By coincidence, I have been studying the precautionary principle. That's what seems to behind the Dutch attitude toward bikes and cars, to some extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle

tandempower

Right, but that's why I said everything about the Dutch focus on national differences and conforming to the norms of 'different' countries. Just like US cultural identity suggests that people should be free, Dutch cultural identity suggests that people should conform and adapt to local culture wherever they go. It's just sad, then, the cycling in the US really doesn't count 'in Dutch eyes' as long as it is viewed as a deviation from 'the dominant culture.' I wish Dutch culture along with every other global culture would just focus on what's good instead of thinking in terms of local culture and norms because ultimately things like cycling are just universally good for everyone, including the planetary environment, so it shouldn't matter if it's relatively popular or unpopular among the people living in a local area.

I just pointed out the national compartmentalizing habit of Dutch culture in this thread because it's something that I think prevents the many positive aspects of other Dutch cultures, such as cycling, from making more of a difference globally.

kmv2

haha. I recall one time on the path, I slowed and waited to pass a running group occupying the whole path. Dinged the bell as usual indicating I was going to pass. One of them turns around and yells at me to "get on the road" or something.

Agreed.