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Sprawl-free vs. car-free

Old 06-24-14, 06:19 PM
  #276  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
Earth is to be enjoyed! Unless of course you think you are one of the those people created by visiting space aliens... then yeah... you may be an invasive species. But most earthlings are native to the planet! Can we harm what is natural?
I get a little nervous when I see more farmland turned into subdivisions. At some point won't we have more food shortages?
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
And your "guess" of what people are like outside your city limits.... should be explored. Ask your parents before leaving your area.
I actually like and appreciate people everywhere. I enjoy spending about 25 days a year consulting in smaller cities and towns. It's the infrastructure of suburbia with it's vast paved mall parking lots and freeways and so on I have a problem with. My comment was not to disparage rural people - it was about diversity. If you want to play glam punk or join a Sherlock Holmes Society or build battle bots or study feng shui or ballet with like-minded people, of course you can find some of those opportunities in rural areas, but you'll have many more choices in an urban area simply because there are more people close at hand.
Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
City's can be enjoyed... all true! Ever go camping/touring?
Of course, but not in suburbia. I kind of enjoyed the fact that I could get away to the wilderness, away from people, thanks to them all being huddled in the city.
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Old 06-24-14, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
I get a little nervous when I see more farmland turned into subdivisions. At some point won't we have more food shortages?
Of course we will.... at some point. At some point.... the sun burns out and goes red dwarf... what's your plan for that part of Earth's future? Maybe everyone would be better off if you resolved that "nervous" problem..... before you tried to solve Earth future crop problems. (Particularly if your not a famer)

Life is for the living... life is to be enjoyed. Learn to live.... before you try to fix life.

Originally Posted by cooker
I actually like and appreciate people everywhere. I enjoy spending about 25 days a year consulting in smaller cities and towns. It's the infrastructure of suburbia with it's vast paved mall parking lots and freeways and so on I have a problem with?
Yes people on this planet do tend to build things. Apparently beings behave differently on the planet you're from. Sorry Earth hasn't been the way you wished!

Originally Posted by cooker
My comment was not to disparage rural people - it was about diversity. ..... I kind of enjoyed the fact that I could get away to the wilderness, away from people, thanks to them all being huddled in the city.
You like diversity... its just PEOPLE you don't like huh?!?!? Yeah that makes sense. I can never tell if your joking... or you forget to proof read you posts for craziness.
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Old 06-24-14, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog
Who said anything about welfare checks?
Services! They weren't defined... so I defined them. I'll accept your list of "services" cities provide.
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Old 06-24-14, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
They're as much part of nature as whale poop.
Hey.... you can't keep all the crap downtown. Whale poop stays in the ocean... period!
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Old 06-24-14, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
You seem to have a lot of very strong anti-urban feelings.
You may be the worst Psychic on the InterWeb.

Anyone with average problem solving skills could put two and two together and figure this stuff out. Stop trying to solve problem with emotions. Use your logic skills.
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Old 06-24-14, 07:17 PM
  #281  
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Originally Posted by RPK79
. . . when you can have a spacious home in a suburb with easy access to bike trails, shopping, dining, and other recreational activities?
Not too many suburbs I have seen have those things (unless you count driving into the city as easy access).
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Old 06-24-14, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
Services! They weren't defined... so I defined them. I'll accept your list of "services" cities provide.
I'll let you come up with a list of your own.
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Old 06-24-14, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Here are a couple more sources for the notion that electricity delivery is more expensive in rural than urban areas:

This American paper from 2012 talks about rural electrification projects from a global perspective and suggests they need heavy government intervention and subsidy to be profitable (an oxymoron). Factors inhibiting profitability are distribution costs, rural poverty and low energy demand. Regarding distribution costs specifically, they say that compared to their urban counterparts:

”rural distribution service providers are also faced with higher operating expenses per household or commercial consumer served given their lower energy density.
https://www.nbr.org/downloads/pdfs/et...per_Waddle.pdf

Another expert from Latin America echoes these comments:

”the rural population electricity consumption is much lower than the urban population, and (2) the rural population is very dispersed, requiring higher investments in the electric distribution system (transformers, electric cables, poles, etc) due to the greater distances involved when compared to urban areas. In addition, the rural electric systems present much higher costs of operation and maintenance in comparison with the urban areas for the same reasons mentioned before. In other words, it is a service with costs intrinsically higher than the urban area, while generating much lower revenues.”
https://www.ruralelec.org/fileadmin/D...torial_IDB.pdf
Good research! And I don't think electricity is even the most expensive service to be extended to sprawl areas. Water and sewage cost a lot. Road costs are astronomical, both initial construction costs and ongoing maintenance. One of the most expensive services to provide to sprawl areas is police, fire, and ambulance. Some formerly rural townships around here are finding themselves unable to continue providing emergency services as unplanned development encroaches.

Very early in the thread, I suggested that one way to limit sprawl would be for rural governments to refuse to extend utilities and infrastructure to regions where they don't want sprawl type development. What do you think?
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Old 06-24-14, 10:44 PM
  #284  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
Of course we will.... at some point. At some point.... the sun burns out and goes red dwarf... what's your plan for that part of Earth's future? Maybe everyone would be better off if you resolved that "nervous" problem..... before you tried to solve Earth future crop problems. (Particularly if your not a famer)

Life is for the living... life is to be enjoyed. Learn to live.... before you try to fix life.



Yes people on this planet do tend to build things. Apparently beings behave differently on the planet you're from. Sorry Earth hasn't been the way you wished!



You like diversity... its just PEOPLE you don't like huh?!?!? Yeah that makes sense. I can never tell if your joking... or you forget to proof read you posts for craziness.
I just said I liked people and you quoted me. Like you, probably, I prefer it not to be too crowded or developed if I'm out in the woods.

Last edited by cooker; 06-24-14 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 06-24-14, 10:55 PM
  #285  
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
You may be the worst Psychic on the InterWeb.

Anyone with average problem solving skills could put two and two together and figure this stuff out. Stop trying to solve problem with emotions. Use your logic skills.
Sorry, a lot of your comments are a bit cryptic, so I thought you were expecting me to guess at your meaning, but since I'm such a bad guesser it would help if you dumbed it down and spelled it out for me. Like how come you keep saying we're supposed to enjoy ourselves, yet you seem to come across yourself like you're angry, with your bold highlghts and comments about drugs and hookers and welfare checks and telling people they're ignorant and have below average problem solving skills and need to have their parents tell them stuff? Am I missing the joke?

Last edited by cooker; 06-24-14 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 06-24-14, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
Good research! And I don't think electricity is even the most expensive service to be extended to sprawl areas. Water and sewage cost a lot. Road costs are astronomical, both initial construction costs and ongoing maintenance. One of the most expensive services to provide to sprawl areas is police, fire, and ambulance. Some formerly rural townships around here are finding themselves unable to continue providing emergency services as unplanned development encroaches.

Very early in the thread, I suggested that one way to limit sprawl would be for rural governments to refuse to extend utilities and infrastructure to regions where they don't want sprawl type development. What do you think?
I think both regulatory or "free-market" solutions could work. Either limit services through planning, or just don't subsidize them.
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Old 06-24-14, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody
Very early in the thread, I suggested that one way to limit sprawl would be for rural governments to refuse to extend utilities and infrastructure to regions where they don't want sprawl type development. What do you think?
I think you should go to work for a rural government for a couple years and find out first hand how things work.

Then you can talk about it.
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Old 06-25-14, 05:19 AM
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I lived in an old subdivision (1960's) that was built outside the city limits and managed to get itself exempted from the state minimum requirements for subdivisions, things like storm sewers, curbing and sidewalks. Fast forward 30 years it has now been annexed into the city. I get a "Notice of Assessment" from the city telling me that my corner lot with a house worth roughly $60,000 will require a $200,000 assessment for the necessary upgrades in infrastructure to bring it in line with the minimum requirements for subdivisions, which would include storm sewers, sanitary sewer, curbs and sidewalks. I sold that house shortly after and to the best of my knowledge nothing has yet been done to that subdivision some 20+ years later. It has now been built past by many, many miles of newer subdivisions.

In Charlotte, NC a large city in south central NC they are fighting developers to stop the lollipop subdivisions due to the cost of providing fire, ambulance and police services. Apparently with that style of development causes increases in response times, so they have to have more stations, more equipment and more personnel to meet the minimum requirements for response times.

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Old 06-25-14, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
I think you should go to work for a rural government for a couple years and find out first hand how things work.

Then you can talk about it.
The last time I checked, this forum was open to anyone who might wish to participate. I hardly think you are in a position to be putting conditions on who can or cannot put forward ideas and opinions. I, for one, intend to continue posting, even though I have never worked for a rural government, and I supect others will do the same.
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Old 06-25-14, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Roody
Speaking of local produce... New Jersey was called the Garden State because most of the produce for New York and Philadelphia was grown there. Nowadays New Jersey is the sprawl state, and a lot less produce is grown there. Most of the produce for NYC and Philadelphia is trucked in from hundreds of miles away.

I'm not saying that all of those people should not have moved to New Jersey. But if they had planned better, the people could been fit in better, and some of the sprawl could have been eliminated. It is possible to have quiet, spacious suburban living with much less sprawl. I can visualize suburban villages, surrounded by green belts that are produce farms. This would be a place where Machka might like to live, and where you and phoebeisis could enjoy plenty of fresh vegetables.
Well, the U.S. still has a lot of land to fall back on but, thanks to population growth, sprawl and the use of land for energy crops, the UK will be facing a significant shortfall of farmland by 2030:

BBC News - UK faces 'significant' shortage of farmland by 2030

Last edited by Ekdog; 06-25-14 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 06-25-14, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Ekdog
The last time I checked, this forum was open to anyone who might wish to participate. I hardly think you are in a position to be putting conditions on who can or cannot put forward ideas and opinions. I, for one, intend to continue posting, even though I have never worked for a rural government, and I supect others will do the same.
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Old 06-25-14, 07:29 AM
  #292  
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One factor limiting sprawl in my local is the amount of land that can be deeded, with much of it now zoned and legally set aside for agricultural use. Commute time and the cost of commuting is another factor in limiting sprawl as well.
Over the last 20 to 30 years in my locale, a considerable movement on higher density housing has taken place, with numerous empty lots and fields in many neighborhoods being filled with homes or apartment complexes. The downside to higher density housing in my locale is the once quieter roads now have higher density traffic numbers to go with it.
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Old 06-25-14, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by storckm
Not too many suburbs I have seen have those things (unless you count driving into the city as easy access).
I'm sorry the 'burbs in Ohio don't have much to do. The ones around here are great and I'd much rather go to any of them than go into the city to access any of the items I listed.
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Old 06-25-14, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cooker
Sorry, a lot of your comments are a bit cryptic, so I thought you were expecting me to guess at your meaning, but since I'm such a bad guesser it would help if you dumbed it down and spelled it out for me.

I already do!
Some posts I even highlight (bold) the parts you really need to read and understand. You will NEVER be able to read and understand what you don't want to believe. That is how paradigms effect us... you know?

Originally Posted by cooker
Like how come you keep saying we're supposed to enjoy ourselves, yet you seem to come across yourself like you're angry, with your bold highlghts and comments about drugs and hookers and welfare checks and telling people they're ignorant and have below average problem solving skills and need to have their parents tell them stuff? Am I missing the joke?
Joke? Much of what you posted reads.... as from a very youthful perspective. I am trying to be careful not to tell some 14 year old to get out and explore the world. You seem to have experienced life.... in a very narrow way. And you admittedly have no knowledge of history. The joke is the thread... or the thread becomes the joke.

There is no anger on this side of the posts. I am very happy smiley guy!

City's grow and spread out naturally. Sprawl is just a made-up word. City's have always grown, and contracted.... and disappeared (like Detroit is doing before our very eyes). Given enough time.... every city in America will become a Detroit. That is just the way things are. The Sun will burn out... the planet and everyone and everything on it is surely doomed.

Yet you predict that you may live long enough to see another human when you walk in the woods once a year.... and you get nervous. And to cure your nervousness.... you want to increase cost and restrict the desires of others..... to bend their will to your desires.

You need to get a life! The planet was a fine place to live before your arrived here... however that happened. Earth will continue to be a fine place to live, love, and have a life on.... long after we've all pasted on.

The storms pasted here. The electric is back on. I am going out bicycling today. You ought to try that too. It always puts a big smile on my face.

Last edited by Dave Cutter; 06-25-14 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 06-25-14, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
I just love it when creative people take the time (like you just did) to make-up history that is self serving. Even when the pretend history is so childishly created as to fool no one..... it's still fun to read.

No human has EVER been so misinformed as to equate slavery... to freedom.
I was referring to the Kansas-Nebraska act where the position was taken that slavery was the autonomous prerogative of the people of a given state/territory. In other words, some people were against taking away the freedom to use slavery from slave holders if the majority within a given area was for it. The same 'popular sovereignty' is being used to maintain sprawl in areas where alternative transportation is unpopular. The logic is that if driving is popular among the majority of people of an area, the freedom of a minority of people to be able to use other forms of transportation is not important. Is this not an accurate comparison of the invocation of popular sovereignty to dismiss calls for minority freedom?


Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
So... what your saying is.... you have absolutely no knowledge of American history. And have never had an inclination to learn any history. BUT.... you would like to discuss it.... as if you did?

Why don't you rush out an spend a couple thousand hours learning how you got to where you at right now. Then... I'll even open up a chat room for you.
You claimed that cities were degenerating and automotivism saved them. I asked you to explain in more depth and you accuse me of ignorance and refer me elsewhere. Some people go online to discuss and explain their views; others do it to talk down at other people. If you only want to do the latter, can I get an exemption from being the target?
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Old 06-25-14, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
I was referring to the Kansas-Nebraska act where the position was taken that slavery was the autonomous prerogative of the people of a given state/territory. In other words, some people were against taking away the freedom to use slavery from slave holders if the majority within a given area was for it. The same 'popular sovereignty' is being used to maintain sprawl in areas where alternative transportation is unpopular. The logic is that if driving is popular among the majority of people of an area, the freedom of a minority of people to be able to use other forms of transportation is not important. Is this not an accurate comparison of the invocation of popular sovereignty to dismiss calls for minority freedom?
This is coming awfully close to breaching Godwin's Law.
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Old 06-25-14, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
City's grow and spread out naturally. Sprawl is just a made-up word. City's have always grown, and contracted.... and disappeared (like Detroit is doing before our very eyes). Given enough time.... every city in America will become a Detroit. That is just the way things are. The Sun will burn out... the planet and everyone and everything on it is surely doomed.
Some of us are trying to explore the possibility that motor-sprawl has expanded distances and created social-economic cultural norms that impede the ability for other forms of transportation to grow and replace the over-dominant culture of automotivism as it reaches its limits. What you seem to want is to allow automotivism to retain its cultural monopoly and even allow this cultural monopoly to actively subsidize the automotive economy to prevent it from failing. You want people to wait until every city collapses to begin facilitating and stimulating the ability to shift to other forms of transportation.

Why would you want that when sprawl-tendencies can be kept in check and other policies and programs created to facilitate transit usage and better intersperse residential and commercial zoning? Why do we have to be subject to government that encourages the maximum distance between residences and businesses and puts the lion's share of tax-spending toward supporting personal automotivism while keeping transit and cycling infrastructure at levels that are sub-optimum and therefore discouraging to users?
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Old 06-25-14, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by tandempower
I was referring to the Kansas-Nebraska act where the position was taken that slavery was the autonomous prerogative of the people of a given state/territory. In other words, some people were against taking away the freedom to use slavery from slave holders if the majority within a given area was for it. .........

In some.... in this case ONE person words.
And that one person is YOU. You are perverting old laws and debates to extract new meanings.... that DON'T apply. Living in the suburbs is like making people slaves?!?!?!?!? Oh come on.

Originally Posted by tandempower
....... Some people go online to discuss and explain their views; others do it to talk down at other people......
I am NOT talking down to you. But it is pointless to discuss where we are at (as a society) without a knowledge of history. Throughout history... city's rise and fall. Nothing has changed. You made a pointless silly remark about sprawl and slavery.... and got called on it.

However. Seriously... if my posts seemed gruff or offensive I apologize.
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Old 06-25-14, 08:54 AM
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I'm still not sure what this evil sprawl is we're talking about...
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Old 06-25-14, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RPK79
This is coming awfully close to breaching Godwin's Law.
It has nothing to do with Godwin's law. It's about the use of popular sovereignty to legitimate the suppression of universal freedom in favor of freedom for a majority, where majoritarian freedom results in the impediment of minority freedom. Is it possible to say this without being accused of Godwin's law?
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