scarleton

Last year I got my first real road bike, it came with (via my instructions) a 50/34T and 11 speed 11-32 cassette. The reason is that I wanted to make sure I could climb all the hills in the area, they are often short, only a few hundred feet, but some can be upwards of a grade 12 to 14.

Being a Clydesdale (6’4” & 300 lb) and cycling all winter long, by early this spring I realized that I was mostly riding hills in the 7 to 10 grade range and that if I actually pushed myself, I could climb standing up when still in the large chainring (geared 50T and 32). After doing some math I discovered that if I get the 11-23, when I was in the smaller chainring (geared 34T and 23) it would be a touch easier than the 50T/32, so… I purchased the 11-23.

I simply LOVE, LOVE, LOVE it! I love that fact that when I am in the middle of the range, which seems to be most of the time, I can always find the perfect cursing gear. When you have every gear between 11 and 19, you better!

Here is the dilemma, I am a randonnuer. I just road my first 400K with the 11-23. Like I said, I like the gearing most all the time, except… There were about a dozen hills all in the 120K to 180K with a grade of 9 to 12 that had me out of my seat fighting to get up, but I did get up them. One hills around the 170K mark was even steeper, I was beat, so I throw in the towel and walked the last 20 feet of it.

When I do switch back to the 11-32, I don’t like missing the midrange gears. But I also have the perception that I am slower, especially up the hills. It seems to me that I find myself in the lower gears where I can simply stay in my seat and grind up the hills. Which gives me the perception that I am slower. But the flip side is that I am more worn out once at the top and I take longer to recover.

So one of my thoughts was to invest in a 12-25 for these randonnuering rides. I have two questions:

1. The sense that the 11-23 makes me faster on long rides, truth or fiction? Your thoughts?
2. Since I am able to make it up the hills on the 11-23, will the extra two teeth on the 25 really make that much of a difference?

I am debating on how to gear the bike for the 600K in three weeks. Everything after about 180K is pretty flat. When I say flat, I mean a grade of 7 or less. The option are:
The big question is really for those that have ridden both the 11-23 and 11-25, is there that much of a difference on steep hills?

Bandera

One of the great things about modern gearing is the ability to quickly and easily swap cassettes to match a course profile.
With a chain whip and a cassette tool it takes 10 minutes tops w/ no derail adjust necessary.

Gearing is a personal preference and changes with fitness and the terrain.
Having come up on close ratios I fit the tightest cassette for efficiency considering my fitness, weather conditions, terrain and ride length.

I don't ride an 11T so I have 12-25, 12-27 and 12-28 10 cog sets w/ a 50/34 to cover my area.
Shimano cassettes for my set-up all work fine from inexpensive to DA.

Having a Flat, Rolling and Steep set will cover any terrain, and you already have 2 of 3.....

-Bandera

scarleton

Have you ever taken your tools and second cassette with you on a long ride and swapped out mid ride? That is something else I am considering, too

Bandera

No, fitting the proper gearing before an event (and testing it pre-ride) has been SOP for >40 years.
I do take a small toolbox and gear sets (and track pump, and supplies, fresh kit, raingear, etc.) to every event start as SOP as well.

With the range of modern gearing fit your best guess and go, less is more.

-Bandera

RR3

I typically use 46 and 34 chainrings with 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-22-25-28-32 OR 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-22-25-28 by SRAM. I mostly used a 53x11, 12, and 13 on a flat ride the other day but normally it is the 46 ring for me.

I am 6'3'' and weigh 192 and also do Brevets. I am a fairly strong rider. I simply cannot imagine limiting myself to a 23 cog nor is a 25 much better wth hills of the sort you mention irrespective of your power/weight ratio.

The above gearing is sufficient for my style of riding, cadence, and power. We get steep climbs in PA and flats in NJ. Many riders should have a triple. An extra gear or two are like fire extinguishers. When you need one, YOU NEED ONE

scarleton

RR3,

I totally hear you, when you need one, you do need one! What I am struggling with is when is that *NEED*, really? I am contemplating doing the Taste of Carolina 1200k and in that there is a 1200 foot climb over 6 miles at a grade of 6 or 7. There, I see needing a 28 or event 32 to grid up that hill for an hour. Down in Kentucky when I rode their 200K, they had a few hills that are 350 foot with a grade of 7 to 10, the 32 was great for grinding up the hills.

But when it is only 10 feet that is a grade 12 every now and then, do *I* need the low gear? It just seems that by getting out of my saddle more often with the 23 (maybe 25) I am going to build more muscle mass faster, allowing me to increase my overall speed. That is my current theory...

Just wondering, have you ever tried riding with a 23/25 on the hills I am mentioning? Hard, but wow is it rewarding to get to the top! Here is the Strava segment I created for this worst of it: County Farm Triple Crown. All of which I was able to defeat!

RR3

I have not ridden your exact hills but I have ridden steep hills. I always bring 2 more rear cogs than I think I will need.

I don't do Strava.

I did an exceptionally hilly 400k in 17:50 two weeks ago with a couple leasure stops and a pretty flat 400K recently in 13:24.

Even 20+ years ago when young and strong, I always had a 28 cog on the rear. Always. I rarely needed it but when I needed it, I needed it. I don't know what to say. We are all different, I am glad the 23 works for you.

RR3

Ok, I went into Stevia for my first time. Says you made 218 watts for like 6 minutes. These are not hills, they are little pimples. I can't relate. They are barely highway overpasses. If this is all you need to climb, maybe the 23 is all you need.

On an extended 12% climb assuming you can put 218 watts out continuously, you will be hard pressed to stay upright because you will be going 2.53 miles per hour at a 20 RPM cadence.

On a 1 mile 12 climb, I will average 400 watts over about 7 minutes if pushing it or 10 minutes if keeping below my threshold. My cadence will be in the 60's but I have a couple gears to bale me out. What happens when you get really tired?

scarleton

Ah, I am glad I posted the Strava link and very appreciative that you took the time to look at it. You are 100% right, on the grand scheme of things, they are barely highway overpasses Your prospective makes a LOT more sense to me.

Hay, also, thank you for posting your times on the 400K, that also really helps me with prospective. My first 400K, Saturday, I did in 22:08 and only had 11,000 foot in climbing, according to RideWithGPS. It sounds to me like you are a much, much stronger rider then I am. I would love to be able to do a 400K in 19 hours, let lone 17 with a couple leisure stops. The 13:24 is simply blowing my mind. But someday, I might be there! It just shows me it can be done! Thanks a lot, I do appreciate it!

Any tips or suggestions on how I can become faster/stronger, other then to drop from 287lb to like 230lb?

RR3

I looked at a fat Clyde in the mirror on January 1, 2014.

I took a 6 mile ride later that month that took 50 minutes.

I came home and passed out from exhaustion for 2 hours.

I am 65 pounds lighter and am onto my 4th bike because when I first started my knees would slam my gut, so, I went from a Mt Bike to a Cross bike to a custom Touring/Rando, and finally I have a proper racing bike.

There is too much to tell. I still have some weight to lose. My 17:50 400K had 15,400 feet per my Garmin. I also did a 400K earlier in the year in 17:10 with two longish meal stops with a nice group of about 6 riders if I remember.....we certainly could have been if the 15 hour range but we were not riding for time. These were more like my 300K times last year and I am sharing them to give you encouragement. The 13:24 is simply off the charts and if I am not mistaken only Chris Ragsdale and possibly Jan Heine have a faster 400K in the RUSA. I seem to remember a faster 400K pre-RUSA but my memory is foggy. My bike almost always has a 32 cog on it unless I plan a balls to the wall ride and then I have a 28. I don't care if racers laugh at me. I also did my first Masters 55+ race this year and finished in the pack. Nothing special but coming from total fatdom, it means something to me to be able to hang in a real race unlike Brevets which are just for fun really.

One of the most experienced and efficient Randonneurs that I remember was Ed Pavelka who as you probably remember was the head honcho at Bicycling Mag back in the day. He had a triple. I could never figure out how he did negative splits. Proper pacing and having the right gearing.

A couple quick tips.....look up Polarized training. Learn to burn fat.....google Tim Noakes, insulin resistence, low carb. Set yourself a goal off into the distance and work towards it. I set PBP 2015 as my goal on that New Years day. Set yourself a big goal. Reach. I picked three really big ones. Visualize it. Write it down.

BTW...congratulations on finishing the 400K. This is a huge milestone irrespective of time. Finishing is the goal. You did it. There is also nothing wrong with wanting to be fitter. Yes, you must lose a lot of weight.

scarleton

Wow is all I can say! My first real ride in years was early 2013 and I went farther, faster, and felt a lot better then you did afterward. Your story is VERY inspiring, thank you!

I have a few goals, I am quickly coming to realize they are not small:

1. P-12, started January this year and have P-5!
2. ACP Super Randonneur this year ( have all but the 600K)
3. dreaming of the Taste of Carolina 1200k, PBP is simply too expensive for me.

Thank you for the inspiration!

antimonysarah

Well, I haven't had an 11-23 and a 11-25, but as a fellow athena/clyde I swapped my 11-28 on my rando bike to an 11-36 (required a new derailleur) and never looked back. When I need those gears, I need them, and 34x36 takes me down to the point where walking uphill becomes a better use of my time/energy. On brevets, I go with getting up to the top without toasting my legs, even if it's a little slower. On training rides I set different goals -- I don't swap my cassette back, though. Maybe I'm a little slower even then because I have the gears available; my best Strava time on one very steep hill on my training loop was from before the switchover. But that was the *only* time I'd made it up that hill without walking before the swap; now I make it up every time, so my average speed up it is better.

I'm not exactly sure what grades were involved; I tend to look at courses on ridewithgps, which clearly has a different calculation algorithm than Strava. But here's two hills I'd call short and steep myself -- the first is one I made it up with fresh legs on a training ride this past weekend; the other is one I walked some of halfway through a 400k brevet. I could have climbed at least a while longer on the training ride; on the brevet I am not sure if I could have made it up if I'd really tried; this was after several less steep climbs in baking heat and I was a bit cooked. They're both a little under 400 feet climbed in about a mile. I would handle stuff like your segment differently -- I'd likely stand and not downshift much even on a long ride, because those are tiny little bumps.

I will say that there is nothing wrong with walking on a brevet. Eat something as you stroll uphill. Unless you're really riding the time limits, you should be fine either way -- on that 400k I mentioned before, my rear shifter started failing with about 100k to go, and I did the last 60 miles with effectively a 15-19 cassette.

And if you've never done any longer climbs, I'd suggest finding one and seeing how you feel before doing one on a long ride. It's a different type of riding. (I hesitate to call New England climbs long, but they're long enough you have to be able to sustain a power level, not just spike up to it.)

RR3

Definately nothing wrong with walking. I walked a hill last year.

The really, really fast kids from Seattle walked a big climb.

Randonneuring is not racing, it is most generally about finishing.

I stopped and took a nap 100m before cresting the Green Mountains in Vermont at about 1 am. The bed of pine needles and moon were too enticing. That 15 minute nap was heaven. I started to walk after waking and found out I was just crossing a hiking trail at the very top.

Coluber42

I'm mostly of the opinion that a small change in gearing makes fairly little difference in randonneuring. You have to get the same body to the top of the same hill either way and a difference of a tooth or two for the sake of a climb or two doesn't really matter that much one way or the other. The difference between a 23t low gear and a 25t low gear is around 8%. That could potentially prove decisive in a mass-start race where acceleration is everything, but on a brevet it's just not that important. Once you're out on the road, even if you wish for one more gear, it's not going to matter that much.
A big change in gearing is another story. Going from an 11-28 to an 11-36 like @antimonysarah mentioned is a difference of 27%. If your ride has hills that you really need a 36t cog to get up and all you've got is a 28, you're going to really suffer. That's not wishing for one more gear, it's wishing for several more. The change from 11-23 to 11-32 is even bigger, percentage-wise.

Keep in mind that as rides get longer, you have more need to pace yourself, so being able to spin comfortably up hills (even if you go slower than if you were out of the saddle and mashing hard in a higher gear) could end up being more important. Also, depending on the level of support, you might be carrying more weight for a longer ride, too. So erring on the side of lower gearing may not be a bad idea.

(Whether I'd be considered a reputable source for advice about cassettes for brevets is another matter... )

Panza

... And here I am with my 12 speed, riding for pure joy on flats and categorized climbs, thinking how wonderful my tube shifters work and rarely ever need adjustments...

You seem to be in love with 34/23 right now, I'd stick with that. I prefer a wide range of gears personally, I use an 11-28 because I enjoy conquering mountains. I'll be doing a 130mi ride this weekend with a max gradient of 23%.
I'll be doing a century in Ohio the weekend after and I'll be using the 12-25 for that. It's as flat as a pancake there. It's only 3 teeth but it feels a big difference when you're riding on flats vs hills.

RR3

I noticed that the kids from Medfa don't have no derailleurs on their rides....guess the Townies took em.

Panza

Remove wheel, place chain on cog of choice by hand, tighten wheel into new position. Don't even need to flip the wheel with this new age townie technology.

RR3

Or just use the 24 inch gear.

Walk the hills.

Panza

If its good enough for the pros, it's good enough for me.

Coluber42

The Townies must've taken the freewheels too...

thebulls

I am riding a 24/34/48 crankset driving an 11-34 cassette. If I am on terrain that is flat to slightly uphill then I can stay in the big ring. The steps on the cassette are close enough for the type of terrain I am riding on (mostly DC Randonneurs brevets). We just don't often have long stretches where you want to be in the 48 tooth with a 15 tooth casette, followed by long stretches where you want to be in the 48 tooth with a 14 tooth cassette. Mostly, slopes are changing frequently enough that when the road pitches upward, the shift to the next bigger cog puts you close enough to the perfect gear that I am not wishing for closer-spaced gears. But I can easily tolerate cadences between 60 and 100 for fairly-extended periods, so I am not super-finicky about being at precisely the "right" cadence. The granny gear is seldom used, but when you are on a 3-mile 7 percent grade, you want to be able to alternate between sitting and standing. You don't want to be forced to stand and then go into serious leg debt, painfully repaid over the next many hours.

JerrySTL

As a former resident of the Greater Cincinnati area (Covington and Erlanger), I know that it can be very hilly around there. I'd be tempted to use a 12-28 to cover all bases. Of course there could be some relatively big jumps between gears compared to something like a 11-23 or 12-25.

bikemig 

Life was a lot simpler when you had a fixed gear on one side and a single speed freewheel on the other and a pair of wingnuts to make it all happen easily. Who needs a spare cassette?

rm -rf

Heh, "cursing" gears is a good name!

I don't think it's the best plan for a radonneur ride to hammer the climbs in the big ring. It's got to wear you down more than sitting and spinning a reasonable cadence. But you do have experience with the 200k and 400k, and it worked out okay for you.

~~~~
The 25 is going to be a little more than a "half shift" easier than the 23. But on steeper hills, even that will be noticeable.

I ride your same hills. A 34-27 would be my minimum low gear around here. I used to ride a 13-29 Campagnolo 10 speed, and that was perfect.

I always link to Mike Sherman's Gear Calculator for questions like this.
Here's your set: 50-34 and 11-23. The popup notice just tells you that you can bookmark/favorite these settings, to recall them later.

You can add or delete cogs, or change the rpm settings, and all the charts update on the fly. For instance, replace the 11 with a 25. It'll re-sort the list.

The Speed at RPM chart:


~~~~

For Shimano 11 speed cassettes: (Colorado Cyclist usually lists the cogs.)
11-23: 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23 includes the 16 and 18.
11-25: 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-21-23-25 drops the 18 and adds 25.
11-28: 11-12-13-14-15-17-19-21-23-25-28 drops the 16 and 18, adds 25 and 28. I want the missing 16!
11-32: 11-12-13-14-16-18-20-22-25-28-32 lots of cog changes. no 15! more gaps 14-22 but adds the 32.
12-25: 12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-21-23-25 drop 11, add 25. Better than 11-23 for most riders that aren't racing.

If I had to pick just one, I'd rather have a 16 cog than a 18. It fills a gap right above 20 mph, where I'm pushing hard to stay with a group. The 18 fills a gap around 18 mph, not quite as critical. But on a 200k or longer ride, that 18 might be very good to have.

~~~~

Sram 11 speed cassettes:
11-28: 11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,22,25,28 This has closer cog shifts in the 20-25 mph range, instead of the ultegra 11-28 that has closer shifts in the 15-20 mph range, and bigger jumps 20-25. So it depends on where you need to have close ratios.

Here's the Mike Sherman link for Sram 11-28.


This might work for you. It has close gears in the 12-18 mph on the 34 chainring, then close gears from 19-25 in the 50 chainring. It depends on your typical cadence, of course.

If you are pedaling easy at 15 mph, you could stay in the big ring. But if it's a headwind or shallow grade, drop to the 34 and you'll find the exact cadence you want.

Down below 10 mph, I don't think cadence is as critical. So larger gaps there are okay. The 28 low gear will be good on steep climbs.

The chart. See the close ranges in 20-25 mph on the 50 chainring, and close ratios 13-18 mph on the 34 chainring.



Building your own:
My Ultegra 11-28 has the cogs marked this way: 14A 15A 17B. I think the A,B notation is similar to Campagnolo, where they have different tooth orientations on different A,B versions of the same cog. It's designed to shift better with different next-size cogs.
So, building your own cassette from two others might make the shifting at the transition between the two a little rough. But it should work.

thrllskr

I ride all over Colorado. I use a 11-23 in the plains (Eastern Colorado), 11-25 (skirting North and South along the foothills of Colorado), and use a 11-28 (Mountains in Colorado) in conjunction with a compact crank 34-50. If I have climbs that are over a mile or so I will use a 25 or maybe even the 28. Remember, in Rando riding it is about conserving energy and finishing. Walking with cleats, pushing a bike up hill does not seem very efficient to me. I would ensure you can keep pedaling up the hills.