Flounce

The Rainier by Rodriguez Bicycles (R&E in Seattle):

Custom Road Bicycles | Rodriguez Rainier Randonneur Bike

Built/spec'd to order, steel road bike with carbon fork that takes up to 28mm tires with full fenders or 32mm without fenders.

They were really friendly on the phone and very interested in getting the bike the way I wanted it, e.g. front rack, aerobars, dynamo hub, etc.

Thoughts about this bike?

pdlamb

I really want one, but I haven't been able to convince myself I need another bike. It would basically be a duplicate of my travel/fun bike, except it'd be easier to put fenders on.

unterhausen

I feel like 32mm with fenders is minimum

OneIsAllYouNeed

Looks pretty sensible to me. The build kit even looks well thought out for rando. A few others to consider in that same genre:
Gunnar Sport
Lynskey Sportive
Soma ES
Co-Motion Nor'wester
Raleigh Clubman

I'll note that the first two on this list are mine and my wife's favorite single bikes.... for the past ~6 years.

kingston 

You seem to be all over the map with the bikes you are considering.

Here are a couple of thoughts on the stock bikes.

• I'm not a fan of sloping top tubes on steel bikes. It's just aesthetics, and I'm willing to live with it on cheaper frames, but it would be important to me if I were going to spend $1600-$2600 on a frame and fork.
• The Rodriguez carbon fork is the best thing this bike has going for it, and it does nothing for me
• The build on all four of the complete bikes wouldn't work for me. The Limited and Classic are Janky and the gearing doesn't work for me on the Sport or Pro.
• 28c with fenders is narrower than I would prefer

If you went full custom they could build you whatever you wanted, but I don't think that's what you were asking.
This one looks like a pretty nice randonneuring bike.

Flounce

Thank you for all your thoughts. I appreciate your comments regarding minimum tire width with fenders that you would consider. I know I want more comfortable/wider tires, as my current bike only takes up to 23 mm, which I find "not fun" after about 140 miles, I just don't know how wide is wide enough. ( I realize that there are plenty of people who ride PBP on 23 mm and that tire width is a loaded topic . )

I emailed Gunnar about their sport frame; they said 28 mm max with full fenders. Depending on the specific tire/rim combo, they said some might get away with 30 mm.

As for the Rodriguez bikes, they suggested I look at their Adventure frame - that is made for like light loaded touring and gravel - if I wanted 32 or 35 mm plus fenders. I'm not sure if that frame is a bit overbuilt /weight for my purposes or not. I imagine it's fine.


Cost aside, is there a lightweight steel frame that accommodates 35 mm tires with full fenders?

kingston 

A. Homer Hilson will accommodate the tires although I don't think anyone would call it a lightweight.

OneIsAllYouNeed

35mm tires + fenders get tricky due to brake options. Short version: mini-V or disc brakes are the way to go.

"Long reach brakes" - the 57mm reach caliper brakes (i.e. Tektro R539) on Gunnar Sport, Co-Motion Nor'Wester, etc will fit 35mm tires without fenders or 28mm tires with fenders. You can squeeze some 32mm tires in fenders, but it's hassle to keep them from rubbing.

"Extra long reach brakes" - 57-70mm reach caliper brakes (i.e. Tektro R559). I'm not aware of any bikes with these other than custom touring/rando bikes, 700c to 650b conversions, and department store bikes. They would be the most elegant option for 35mm tires and fenders. In fact, 650b x 38mm tires on a road frame designed for standard reach brakes might be a good option for you.

"Mini-V brakes" - these mount to cantilever brake bosses, work with road levers, and offer great stopping power (i.e. Tektro RX6). The length of the brake arm limits tire clearance with fenders to about 35-38mm. This is probably the sweet spot for you. A bike that fits them will be a non-disc cyclocross or touring frame. Lots were made in high end steel, but even more were made with straight gauge 4130 chromoly. Check your local used bike listings for cyclocross bikes and report back.

Cantilever brakes - braking power becomes limited if you try to fit fenders and tires over 35-38mm. They are interchangable with mini-V's, but slightly harder to work on.

Linear pull or "V-brakes" - Some "hybrid" bikes from ~1995 to ~2010 take them. You'll need a special adapter to use them with road brake levers. They'll fit 55mm tires and fenders. You probably won't find a "lightweight steel" hybrid frame, though.

Centerpull, U-brakes, or 990 brakes - (i.e. Paul Racer) just listing these because a few older and custom rando bikes have them. Suitable clearance for 42mm tires and fenders. They're a good candidate for converting a frame from 700c to 650b. Very few frames can accomodate them directly.

Disc brakes - almost all of the road bikes made today for 35-45mm tires have disc brakes. Most of those can mount fenders. Pay close attention to the claimed tire clearance for the frame. Some "all road" bikes only fit a 28mm tire, while others will fit 47mm tires (and 55mm tires if you use 650b rims).

Check out Soma Fabrication, Rivendell, Boulder Bicycle, Surly, Handsome Cycles, Voodoo, Kona, Niner, Ritchey, Jamis, Raleigh, Breezer, Gunnar, Co-Motion

HTupolev

There are also a few drop-bar levers made specifically for V-brake cable pull. Like the Cane Creek Drop V or Tektro RL520 if you just want a brake lever, and Gevenalle's "brifters" have a long-pull option to work with V-brakes.

Just about any frame that takes cantis or mini-Vs will also take V-brakes. They all use the same mounting posts. Sometimes the geometry gets a little weird with how you end up mounting the pads, but it can usually be made to work well.

I would definitely recommend going at least mid-range with V-brakes, though. All V-brakes are easy to set up for powerful braking, but the really cheap ones seem prone to grabby modulation. On the other hand, I use Deore T610s on a couple of bikes and love them.

Flounce

Thanks, lots of good info on brakes here, I didn't know any of that.

I emailed Gunnar about wanting the Sport frame but to accommodate 32mm with fenders, they said that could be done as a custom option and that the brake option that would not require thicker frame tubing would be "dual pivot" brakes, which would have reach of around 64-67mm.

Do "dual pivot" brakes go by another name? I didn't them mentioned in the detailed discussion by OneIsAllYouNeed (thanks).

HTupolev

"Dual pivot" generally refers to dual-pivot calipers. They're the most commonly-used rim brake type on quality modern road bikes, although the term "dual pivot" could also be used to describe most of the old centerpull calipers and u-brakes.

Installing and Adjusting Caliper Brakes

In OneIsAllYouNeed's categories, the dual-pivot Gunnar was referring to would fall under "Extra long reach brakes." A very large caliper brake using only a single pivot for the brake's arms would also be an "Extra long reach brake."

rm -rf

Mini-V brakes
I got the TRP 8.4 mini V brakes. I wanted to be able to swap wheels with my other road bike, so I didn't want disc brakes. These have 84mm arms, so they are designed for Campagnolo and some Shimano brake levers. The cable pull has to be compatible with the brake arm length -- if the arms are too long, the levers would bottom out before the brakes are fully applied. (Some brakes need 90mm arms instead of this 84mm length.)

They work well enough, but I don't think they are as powerful as my Ultegra caliper brakes. (I reduce my speed somewhat on downhills, and that's a good thing anyway).

Pad spacing is critical
Mini-V brakes need to be set up with the pads very close to the rims. Right now, I can't fit a dime in the space between the pad and rim. So that's about 1mm of clearance. Way closer than my caliper brakes. This hasn't been a problem, though.

The mini-V were terrible with my 25mm OD wide rims, with the arms angled out and the stock pads quite grabby and hard to modulate. But with Koolstop salmon low profile pads, the braking is much improved.

The pads hit my front fork when the brakes are opened for wheel changes, so they don't open all the way. Tires wider than 35mm don't quite squeeze through the gap. That's just an annoyance, though.

Tire or fender clearance
The brakes have clearance for a little more than 40mm tires. Large fenders won't quite fit, but I just cut a small oval hole in the fender where the straddle arm was rubbing on the fender. Smaller fenders for 32mm or smaller tires do fit okay.

~~~~~~
In summary, these work okay with road bike brake-shifters. But they are kind of fussy to set up, and have some limitations.


For larger tires with fenders, disc brakes don't have clearance problems, of course.

rm -rf

How well do those long arms work on the extra long reach brakes? I wonder if they flex more, which would make squealing or grabbing more likely? It depends on the design of the arms, I suppose.

OneIsAllYouNeed

I've used the Tekro R559 (extra long reach) and the R539 (long reach) on bikes built for 57mm reach brakes. The R559 feel stiffer in that application. I suspect when both are used for their intended reach, they'll feel about the same. The R539 feels the same as short reach dual pivot caliper brakes from SRAM or Shimano.

OneIsAllYouNeed

That's funny. I requested the same thing (for my Gunnar Sport) back in 2011. They said they'd place the brake boss such that 57mm reach brakes would be pushed to the limit of the slot.

kingston 

I have R559's on my Rivendell with 38c tires and fenders. They work as well as any other brakes I have.

Flounce

Kingston - question, if I go with a brake like the R559 to accommodate a 32mm tire/wheel, would that brake also work on a smaller width rim, e.g. a "regular" road wheel for 23mm tires?

twodownzero

This is a great thread. I have an itch to build a new bike because riding brevets on my Surly Disc Trucker is smooth, but awfully slow uphill with all the weight. As much as I have an idea in my head of what I want, I'm very much on the fence as to exactly how I want the final product to look. I may just design my own frame and have someone make it.

kingston 

The reach is dictated by the distance between the mounting holes on the frame/fork and the rim, not the size of the tire. Read the Sheldon Brown article mentioned above. If you have the right brakes for your bike they don't care what size tire you have as long as it's not too big.

OneIsAllYouNeed

I think you're asking about using different rim widths with the same brake.

Short answer: it'll work.

Long answer: rims for rim brakes available today range from 17mm wide to 30mm wide. A brake like the R559 will work for either of those and everything in between. If you swap wheels from one rim width to another, you may have to adjust the cable tension and/or align the brake pads, depending on the difference. In some cases, the quick release on the brake has enough range to swap quickly between 20mm wide training rims and 25mm racing rims (for example). For practical purposes, you'd likely have a 24mm wide rim for your 23mm tires, and a 25mm wide rim for your wider tires because those are the best options available today. You wouldn't have to mess with the brakes when swapping wheels.

Flounce

Perfect, thanks - yes that was my question, i.e. whether different rim widths would work for those R559 brakes, to allow for a range of wheels for 23mm to 35mm tires.

Aubergine 

Flounce, Rodriguez will build you anything you want. My wife and I now have five custom bikes from Rodriguez, and I could not tell you what “model” they are in R&E’s catalog, because we started with one of the models and adjusted it for our needs. You will not be sorry.

CliffordK

What kind of riding are you doing? Planning to do? Pavement? Gravel? Racing? I certainly put a lot of miles on with narrow tires.

It would seem like a custom builder would listen to the customer and put on whatever size tires the customer requested, but "custom" costs money. On one of the pages of the website, it suggested about an extra $200 for custom options.

Someone found this "Niner" a couple of days ago.
RLT 9 STEEL 3-STAR RIVAL
Niner RLT 9 Steel Review - BIKEPACKING.com

It is rated for 35mm tires (stock). I don't see photos with fenders. Perhaps one could hunt for them, but it does list fender mounts.

I think a great number of "stock" cross/gravel bikes will take the 35mm tires, so the options are certainly out there.

rm -rf

One mid-width rim

My HED Ardennes+ rims are 25.5mm outside width, 20.5mm inside width. These are tubeless ready, so the tire beads kind of lock into place. So I don't worry at all about beads staying on the rim for any of these tires.

The rims work great with a lot of different tire sizes. I'm about 170 pounds:

23mm GP4000S measure 26mm on these rims -- yes, the tire is just slightly wider than the rim. This works great on fast group rides. Handling and steering response is great. These tires are only 200 grams. 80-85 psi front, 95-100 psi rear.

25mm GP4-seasons measure 29mm. All-day rides on paved roads, and good for rough pavement. 70 psi front, 85 psi rear. Workable on crushed stone rail trails, but a wider tire would be better.

35mm Clement USH are close to 35mm. Around 45-50 psi front, 55-60 psi rear. Gravel roads.

38mm Compass Barlow Pass are 39mm. 38 psi front, and 45 psi rear for paved roads -- smooth and efficient on chipseal rough roads, and low rolling resistance on smooth roads. I'll lower maybe 5 psi for non-paved roads. Very good on gravel. These tires are about 400 grams, and the larger tubes are heavier too.

Flounce

Thank you that's great, I really appreciate the specific recommendation of HED Ardennes plus, I will add that and the R559 to my list. Will probably get a dynamo hub built with those HEDs, and a Luxos IQ2 light with built in USB port for charging the Garmin during the day.

To answer someone's question above, the riding for this particular bike would longer brevets of 400km, 600, PBP, etc.

I am going to keep my current bicycle that only takes up to 23mm tires for rides up to a double century in length, which are the longest rides I've done so far.