Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling Do you enjoy centuries, double centuries, brevets, randonnees, and 24-hour time trials? Share ride reports, and exchange training, equipment, and nutrition information specific to long distance cycling. This isn't for tours, this is for endurance events cycling

Need a new GPS for randonneuring?

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Old 10-26-17, 10:44 AM
  #51  
Drew Eckhardt 
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Thanks for the replies to my questions and comments.
Any thoughts on which is the preferred unit to buy? There are a lot of comments regarding one or the other, but is anyone game enough to express a preference? Indeed, does it matter?

I bought a refurbished Edge 800 (new case, new battery, Garmin warranty) after returning an Edge 810 and ELEMNT which had problems I couldn't work around.

It generates turn-by-turn regardless of what's in the course file, crashes based on distance not road configuration (which can be worked around with course splits and joining recordings with fitfiletools.com), has maps with street names that pan when zoomed in, switches to the map screen before turns with path highlighted, has good battery life, has programmable per-bike odometers, charges while riding, and has the USB connector parallel to the ground so charging cables don't fall out due to their own weight.

I skipped the 1000 because people had problems with extremely short battery life, and the software is more complicated than the other GPSes which will lead to more problems given Garmin's incompetence surrounding software development.

The $100 lower price wasn't a factor - I'd have paid $100 more than the others to have a GPS which worked for me.

I briefly considered building a bike computer which ran things in different processes for separate failure domains and used an e-ink display for great legibility in sunlight and good battery life, but have more fun writing software for my day job than I would doing that project.

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Old 10-26-17, 12:00 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
"For the "turn guidance" stuff (which the Wahoo units don't do), the different Garmin units are variable in how well they do this."

Could you better explain this ?. Reason I'm puzzled is my Wahoo Bolt does do "turn guidance" in the sense that it will display in the data and map screens, in a text format, the upcoming turn, the distance to the turn and the street name. Seems that this would be defined as turn guidance, just no viewing it on a map. The Garmin units do a much better job (IMO) then Wahoo with on-map visualization of the turn, the distance, white direction arrow, etc..
It has "turn information" in the file that is loaded to it.

That's what the "course points" are. They work the same way (basically*) as you describe they work on the Wahoo.

The Wahoo units keep track of the upcoming course point. The Garmins do too but somewhat incompletely.

* The labels for the "course points" are much longer on the Wahoo.

The "turn guidance" on the Garmins is not in the file loaded to the unit. They are, basically, "course points" generated (calculated) by the unit itself. The Garmins do a much better job displaying these calculated "course points" than they do displaying the "course points" in the TCX file.

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Old 10-26-17, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
It has "turn information" in the file that is loaded to it.

That's what the "course points" are. They work the same way (basically*) as you describe they work on the Wahoo.

The Wahoo units keep track of the upcoming course point. The Garmins do too but somewhat incompletely.

* The labels for the "course points" are much longer on the Wahoo.

The "turn guidance" on the Garmins is not in the file loaded to the unit. They are, basically, "course points" generated (calculated) by the unit itself. The Garmins do a much better job displaying these calculated "course points" than they do displaying the "course points" in the TCX file.
Thx, thatís actually useful to know in terms of what type of route/course you create and from what source.
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Old 10-26-17, 05:59 PM
  #54  
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I note that a big bike chain here (Australia) has the Garmin 810 for considerably less than the 820. Is there any reason not to take advantage and buy the 810?
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Old 10-26-17, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
I note that a big bike chain here (Australia) has the Garmin 810 for considerably less than the 820. Is there any reason not to take advantage and buy the 810?
Regarding just navigation (using loaded tracks), I don't think the 820 has any advantage over the 810/800. The 800 might, still, be the most reliable than the other, newer units.


It appears the battery runtime of the 820 is shorter too.

The 820 screen might be better (more resolution) but It's also smaller too (you usually want tbe screen size to be increased when the resolution is increased). The 820 screen is more square (you usually want to favor seeing more of what is ahead of you).


The 1000 has a better screen and the screen is larger too. So, I think that's a better choice for navigation over the 820.

Though, the 1030 has better battery runtime over the 1000 and the screen is better too.

I'd either go with a refurbished 800 (or a 810) or the 1030.

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Old 10-26-17, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
I note that a big bike chain here (Australia) has the Garmin 810 for considerably less than the 820. Is there any reason not to take advantage and buy the 810?
And just to show that you should always read the fine print, I've just been back to their website... and the 810 is out of stock. Rats!
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Old 10-26-17, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
I note that a big bike chain here (Australia) has the Garmin 810 for considerably less than the 820. Is there any reason not to take advantage and buy the 810?
Originally Posted by europa View Post
And just to show that you should always read the fine print, I've just been back to their website... and the 810 is out of stock. Rats!
I dropped in on the way home from work... after doing some research while I should have been doing work

Yes, they still have the 810 on their website but it was only to clear out old stock. The bloke behind the counter checked and, as expected, all have been sold.

So it was next options - the Wahoo Bolt or the 820.
No choice really. I'd already come to the conclusion that each were good and where one stumbled the other didn't.
The 820 retails at $AU649 but I could get it for $AU539 if I joined their 'club'. I just couldn't afford that, not for the use I have now.
He did a deal on the Wahoo Bolt for $AU380 - still a dose of sticker shock but I'm in a good place with bills this pay sooooooooo...

I now have a Wahoo Bolt sitting on charge beside me.

Now all I have to do is work out how to drive the thing and that's part of the reason for buying now. I'm a long long way from being fit and that fitness is coming very slowly (medical issues, old age, too much of me, etc). My plan is to start playing with it now, get used to it and learn how to drive the thing and the associated websites so that by the time I actually DO have a real need/use, I'll be ready to go... sort of.

Thanks for the help, this thread has been very useful.
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Old 10-27-17, 06:11 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
I now have a Wahoo Bolt sitting on charge beside me.

Now all I have to do is work out how to drive the thing and that's part of the reason for buying now. I'm a long long way from being fit and that fitness is coming very slowly (medical issues, old age, too much of me, etc). My plan is to start playing with it now, get used to it and learn how to drive the thing and the associated websites so that by the time I actually DO have a real need/use, I'll be ready to go... sort of.

Thanks for the help, this thread has been very useful.
The Bolt is easy but you do need a smartphone and the app to get it configured, it's required actually. As part of the setup, the app will check for any current updates and will install them (I think they did one in August). You need to have the device powered and BT connected to the phone while you use the app for all screen configuring, but it's all straight forward.

One option is to set what web based tracking program you want, which will track and store your activities as well as let you create courses/routes to download to the device. Strava and RideWithGPS seem to be the most commonly used. If memory serves, once you configure the Wahoo to interchange data with Strava/RWGPS, it's automatic from then on.

It has maps, so when you are ready to navigate, you create a course/route in the web based app, save it, which should send the route to the Wahoo app, you can then dump it to the Bolt. You can find the routes saved on the Bolt map screen.
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Old 10-27-17, 06:40 AM
  #59  
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Thanks Steve.
I've fought my way through creating my first route using RWGPS. It's a route I know so I thought it'd be easy but no, the stupid system kept wanting to divert me around side streets and apparently didn't know about bike paths that I know were there a week ago when I rode them - I even worked out a way around that which I thought was pretty clever of me (my technological savvy tends to end with the invention of the stick). I was shocked to discover that RWGPS's own instructional videos actually helped - don't they know the rule that technical help should only work if you already know how to do it? Next step, get it onto the unit. According to Wahoo, I should be able to do that with the cable direct from my computer, but we'll see about that, I may wind up having to go through my phone as you suggest.

Believe me, the learning curve is steeper than any hill I'd like to climb.

The hilarious thing is that, having two bikes, I tried to buy a second mount when I bought the unit. They didn't have any but, when I opened the box, I found there were already two mounts in there. Sure, they are different types of mount, but I've got one for each bike anyway.

Yes, I'm excited. A new toy. It's just like Christmas. Best of all, when I texted my daughter in law about it, I got an AWESOME back (yes, in caps)
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Old 10-27-17, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
The Bolt is easy but you do need a smartphone and the app to get it configured, it's required actually. As part of the setup, the app will check for any current updates and will install them (I think they did one in August). You need to have the device powered and BT connected to the phone while you use the app for all screen configuring, but it's all straight forward.
The whole set up thing was a bit scary but, as you say, if you just walk your way through it, it falls into place pretty nicely. I've certainly fought with worse.
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Old 10-27-17, 09:22 AM
  #61  
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using it on local rides is definitely the way to start. My first ride with my 800 was on a 600 km brevet, and it let me down in a spectacular way, more than once. So I didn't use it again for a long time. Actually, the next ride might have been on a 1200k, and it let me down so bad I put it in my drop bag. Then I started using it on shorter rides, and I figured out all the things I was doing wrong, and it started being really useful.
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It's a wonderful sport when you can make up for a lack of ability with a lack of sleep
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Old 10-27-17, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
using it on local rides is definitely the way to start. My first ride with my 800 was on a 600 km brevet, and it let me down in a spectacular way, more than once. So I didn't use it again for a long time. Actually, the next ride might have been on a 1200k, and it let me down so bad I put it in my drop bag. Then I started using it on shorter rides, and I figured out all the things I was doing wrong, and it started being really useful.
It isn't really a good idea to add any nontrivial thing/activity to a "real" ride that you have no experience with.
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Old 10-27-17, 10:32 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
. According to Wahoo, I should be able to do that with the cable direct from my computer, but we'll see about that, I may wind up having to go through my phone as you suggest.

B)
Direct cable transfer ?, I didn't know Wahoo provided for that. All I've ever read was using the Wahoo app on the phone, via BT. You go to Ride, then Routes and it lists the rides you created on RWGPS and have allowed to be linked to Wahoo. You can also do this on the device in Maps, as the phone app will sync any routes you have in the Wahoo system.
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Old 10-27-17, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Thanks Steve.
I've fought my way through creating my first route using RWGPS. It's a route I know so I thought it'd be easy but no, the stupid system kept wanting to divert me around side streets and apparently didn't know about bike paths that I know were there a week ago when I rode them - I even worked out a way around that which I thought was pretty clever of me (my technological savvy tends to end with the invention of the stick).
Note that rwgps has a drop-down to select what map you're drawing on. The Open Street Map cycle map is more likely to have bike trails than the other choices.
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Old 10-27-17, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
Note that rwgps has a drop-down to select what map you're drawing on. The Open Street Map cycle map is more likely to have bike trails than the other choices.
I've just found that, thanks.
Interestingly, if you use the ordinary map and click on Bike Paths near the drop down, you get more options, mainly in showing 'cycling friendly' streets.

However, I've just found out why I had troubles in one spot last night - yes, there IS a shared path behind a park, but RWGPS regards that as a walking path only and directs you around it. Using OSM Cycle Map, you go straight along it. Guess which map I'll be using in future though maybe toggling between the two will help.

And in another area, where I wanted to run along a train line. The roads have some intersections blocked off but provision for a bike to ride through. They're shown on the bike paths, but only OSM Cycle Map uses them for a route.

This is complicated enough to get interesting.

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Old 10-27-17, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Direct cable transfer ?, I didn't know Wahoo provided for that. All I've ever read was using the Wahoo app on the phone, via BT. You go to Ride, then Routes and it lists the rides you created on RWGPS and have allowed to be linked to Wahoo. You can also do this on the device in Maps, as the phone app will sync any routes you have in the Wahoo system.
I've just been looking on Wahoo's instructions page (https://au.wahoofitness.com/instruct...emnt-bolt#ride) for it and I'll be blowed if I can find it. Maybe it was somewhere else or maybe I was confused. I'll let you know if I do.
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Old 10-27-17, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
I've just been looking on Wahoo's instructions page (https://au.wahoofitness.com/instruct...emnt-bolt#ride) for it and I'll be blowed if I can find it. Maybe it was somewhere else or maybe I was confused. I'll let you know if I do.
The Wahoo computers speak Media Transfer Protocol over USB, like many smart phones. They expose .fit files via that interface which can be used for local programs like Golden Cheetah or uploaded to your favorite web site other than Strava.

This is different than (older?) Garmin devices which act as USB mass storage devices. Your computer may come with drivers for USB mass storage, but not MTP.
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Old 10-27-17, 05:54 PM
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F

Originally Posted by europa View Post
I've just found that, thanks.
Interestingly, if you use the ordinary map and click on Bike Paths near the drop down, you get more options, mainly in showing 'cycling friendly' streets.

However, I've just found out why I had troubles in one spot last night - yes, there IS a shared path behind a park, but RWGPS regards that as a walking path only and directs you around it. Using OSM Cycle Map, you go straight along it. Guess which map I'll be using in future though maybe toggling between the two will help.

And in another area, where I wanted to run along a train line. The roads have some intersections blocked off but provision for a bike to ride through. They're shown on the bike paths, but only OSM Cycle Map uses them for a route.

This is complicated enough to get interesting.
One option in RWGPS when tracing a new route is to turn off the option to follow roads, and draw instead a straight line. That’ll get you around what the map thinks is a sidewalk, or something similar. I use this on my commute for a section that uses the Boardwalk on Rockaway Beach in NYC. Google, nor the maps that are based on Goggle, is not aware (as yet) that the Boardwalk got rebuilt last winter and is complete. No routing would follow it, so I just drew it as line. Using a navigation route is not going to show turns, because the device thinks I’m on dirt, but as I don't turn anyway, no issue.

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Old 10-27-17, 06:50 PM
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That's what I was using Steve. Useful tool. Pity the navigation tool doesn't recognise it, you may find yourself going cross country some day, maybe trying to find your way along some farm tracks. But I shouldn't complain, it's still a huge step up from blundering around without any guide.
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Old 10-27-17, 08:58 PM
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I managed to upload a route onto my Bolt. Yes, I had to use the mobile phone. No, I don't know how I managed it because the instructions make no sense and when I looked over at the Bolt, to my surprise, it showed that I had a route loaded.

I'm using Ride with GPS and have logged on on my mobile. Am I right in assuming that the bolt and RWGPS talk to each other via my phone using some sort of sync system?

Wahoo also need some sort of useful manual - I just found a settings page on the unit that I didn't know about. Just jabbing buttons and seeing what happens doesn't seem like an efficient way of learning to use a unit to me (hint: this is where someone gives me the appropriate link )

Boy have I got a lot to learn.
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Old 10-28-17, 06:36 PM
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When you establish the Wahoo connection in RWGPS, all saved routes in RWGPS will port over to the device and show up as potential routes. It does this by RWGPS automatically sending to Wahoo, then onward to the smartphone app and BT to the device, which syncs every time the device is powered and near the smartphone app. It’s possible the device gets it from WiFi, not sure.

Note that there have been issues with the smartphone losing the BT connection to the device during rides. Wahoo has responded to many complaints by just stating to re-start the app (iPhone) prior to stopping and saving a ride, this way a saved ride has a running app to dump to. That disconnect between smartphone app and device as well seemingly means you sometimes have to find routes that are on the smartphone app and manually send them to the device, or at least I have had to do that.
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Old 10-29-17, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
It generates turn-by-turn regardless of what's in the course file, crashes based on distance not road configuration (which can be worked around with course splits and joining recordings with fittools.com)
Visiting fittools.com it seems that domain is for sale - do you perhaps mean https://fitfiletools.com ?
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Old 10-29-17, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by joewein View Post
Visiting fittools.com it seems that domain is for sale - do you perhaps mean https://fitfiletools.com ?
Yes! Sorry for the typo.
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Old 11-06-17, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by europa View Post
Thanks for the replies to my questions and comments.
Any thoughts on which is the preferred unit to buy? There are a lot of comments regarding one or the other, but is anyone game enough to express a preference? Indeed, does it matter?
Get the Garmin Edge 1000. All the complaints I see above seem to be in two categories:

1. the unit they have is not "smart" enough to truly "navigate" or
2. the unit has too small of a screen to be able to tell where they are going, even if it does.

The Edge 1000 solves both of these problems. It gives turn by turn directions and has a huge screen with a map. It beeps at you when it's time to turn and gives you the distance to the turn. It has a digital cue sheet. It will beep at you and display "off course" if you are off course. The learning curve took me 2-3 short rides and it was done. It turned "bonus miles" into a "bonus block" for me on my first brevet when I was in an unfamiliar town, hundreds of miles from home.

Mine is also plugged into my headlight's USB port 100% of the time, so I start and end 100+ mile rides with my Garmin at 100%; battery life is not an issue. And it's $80 cheaper than it was just 4 months ago when I bought mine!!

How could you go wrong?
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Old 11-06-17, 10:22 PM
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Good to hear they've got the 1000 series sorted. Still a very expensive buy unfortunately (I know, you get what you pay for). With the ability to recharge it during use either by dyno or external battery, the biggest complaint (battery life) is more or less addressed.

Not wishing to stir up muck, apart from the colour maps and larger maps, what does it offer over the Bolt? As far as navigation goes, my Bolt seems to do what yours does (and in the other thread, you can see where it's giving me grief)
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