Handlebar width and material question
12-22-17, 01:03 PM
#26
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Yes, I tend to want to get some advantage if I pay more. Anecdotally, I witnessed a carbon bar crack when the rider hit a pot hole on a descent. It didn't collapse, nor did he crash, but it certainly got our attention.
12-22-17, 01:22 PM
#27
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Again, that's not what was claimed.
"I would skip the carbon bars. They make them very heavy because of the clamping forces, so there is almost no advantage to them."
Again, the cost difference is negligible in the grand scheme of things. Your claim of lower impact resistance doesn't make sense although it is a common refrain from carbon-fearful folks.
A real life example using Easton EA70 AX bars: 220g Carbon bar vs. 290g aluminum bar. If the aluminum bar would have the same impact resistance at 220g, why can't the manufacturer offer the aluminum bar at 220g?
"I would skip the carbon bars. They make them very heavy because of the clamping forces, so there is almost no advantage to them."
Again, the cost difference is negligible in the grand scheme of things. Your claim of lower impact resistance doesn't make sense although it is a common refrain from carbon-fearful folks.
A real life example using Easton EA70 AX bars: 220g Carbon bar vs. 290g aluminum bar. If the aluminum bar would have the same impact resistance at 220g, why can't the manufacturer offer the aluminum bar at 220g?
I don't know what "doesn't make sense" about carbon's lower impact resistance. I have seen several carbon bars crack at the brake lever clamp after minor impacts, and I have NEVER seen an aluminum bar fail in that section. How much more concrete a difference do you require?
I'm not "down on carbon fiber". But for certain uses, like where there is a great deal of mechanical clamping forces, CF parts rarely have a real advantage over aluminum, which is why carbon bars and cranks aren't lighter than their aluminum competitors, even though carbon frames and aero rims are.
If you've invested a lot of money and pride in CF bars, I'm sorry. No one is trying to make you feel bad about your purchase. But you do need to exercise more care with your CR bars, and if you have any sort of impact you need to remove the bar tape and inspect for cracks. Same if you get any popping or creaking - especially in the drops.
Aside from pure weight, one advantage of CF bars that is similar to CF rims is that you can make a large aero shaped bar lighter out of CF than aluminum. As with rims, where aluminum clinchers are still the lightest, larger aero sections get "heavy" (there's that word again) when you make them out of aluminum vs CF.
12-22-17, 01:55 PM
#28
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Some facts, backed up by data rather than idle speculation:
"
Carbon Fiber vs. Aluminum: – While carbon offers little or no weight savings when applied to stems, the lightest handlebars are usually made from laminated fiber. Handlebars are stressed primarily in bending, and 0-degree carbon fibers take these loads very, very well. When you throw in a few layers at 45 degrees to deal with torsional loads and maybe some circumferential reinforcements where the levers mount, you often end up with a bar that’s a bit lighter than the equivalent aluminum bar.
As noted above, aluminum bars tend to fail by bending permanently (ductile failure) while carbon bars usually snap into pieces (brittle failure). While “shattered” carbon bars make for shudder-inducing post-crash photos, keep in mind that a strong carbon bar will shrug off loads that would bend its aluminum counterpart. Ductile failure is not necessarily a better failure mode than brittle failure.
Reduced weight is a wonderful thing, but carbon bars offer another advantage: they tend to damp high-frequency vibration better than aluminum bars. Composite structures generally damp vibration better than metallic ones, and many riders have found real-world damping benefits when they fit a carbon handlebar. It would be interesting to quantify carbon bar damping; one way to do so would be to wire an accelerometer to the drops and then gently strike or pluck the bar, letting it “ring” at its natural frequency. One could then read the accelerometer data to see how quickly the vibrations dissipated. This ring-down test may be on the Fairwheel menu for a future article, but is outside the scope of this test."
Happy reading: Road Handlebar Review - Fairwheel Bikes Blog
p.s. "If you've invested a lot of money and pride in CF bars, I'm sorry." is a weird piece of projection.
"
Carbon Fiber vs. Aluminum: – While carbon offers little or no weight savings when applied to stems, the lightest handlebars are usually made from laminated fiber. Handlebars are stressed primarily in bending, and 0-degree carbon fibers take these loads very, very well. When you throw in a few layers at 45 degrees to deal with torsional loads and maybe some circumferential reinforcements where the levers mount, you often end up with a bar that’s a bit lighter than the equivalent aluminum bar.
As noted above, aluminum bars tend to fail by bending permanently (ductile failure) while carbon bars usually snap into pieces (brittle failure). While “shattered” carbon bars make for shudder-inducing post-crash photos, keep in mind that a strong carbon bar will shrug off loads that would bend its aluminum counterpart. Ductile failure is not necessarily a better failure mode than brittle failure.
Reduced weight is a wonderful thing, but carbon bars offer another advantage: they tend to damp high-frequency vibration better than aluminum bars. Composite structures generally damp vibration better than metallic ones, and many riders have found real-world damping benefits when they fit a carbon handlebar. It would be interesting to quantify carbon bar damping; one way to do so would be to wire an accelerometer to the drops and then gently strike or pluck the bar, letting it “ring” at its natural frequency. One could then read the accelerometer data to see how quickly the vibrations dissipated. This ring-down test may be on the Fairwheel menu for a future article, but is outside the scope of this test."
Happy reading: Road Handlebar Review - Fairwheel Bikes Blog
p.s. "If you've invested a lot of money and pride in CF bars, I'm sorry." is a weird piece of projection.
And my real world experience as an industry professional isn't "idle speculation".
You have a very odd relationship with "truth".
12-22-17, 06:08 PM
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12-22-17, 06:15 PM
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Jan Heine was a little wacky, not in his actual analysis, but the way he presented it. I don't know how many times I've had people tell me that wheels stand on the bottom spokes because they misunderstood the provocative double negative Jan used to described spoke tension.
While a brilliant engineer, Jobst was indeed wacky though.
Jan is just a crafty, a bit stubborn, and sometimes - misinformed marketer, who toots whatever merchandise he has to sell.
12-22-17, 10:50 PM
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You are confusing Jan with Jobst as it is his description of spoke tension you are quoting to have confused people.
While a brilliant engineer, Jobst was indeed wacky though.
Jan is just a crafty, a bit stubborn, and sometimes - misinformed marketer, who toots whatever merchandise he has to sell.
While a brilliant engineer, Jobst was indeed wacky though.
Jan is just a crafty, a bit stubborn, and sometimes - misinformed marketer, who toots whatever merchandise he has to sell.
Considering that MTB bars start below 100 grams, and even alloy or Ti bars get down below 150 grams, is your bar light or heavy?
12-23-17, 12:40 AM
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That’s easy. It’s light for an 800mm DH bar. It’s also not fragile.
“At 233 grams, roughly a 1/4 lb lighter than most aluminum offerings, the DH bars are still light enough for all purpose riding.”
More info here:
https://www.bikerumor.com/2013/02/11...-dh-handlebar/
If you have a link to some 800mm alloy or Ti bars that are below 150 grams I would love to check them out. Thanks.
“At 233 grams, roughly a 1/4 lb lighter than most aluminum offerings, the DH bars are still light enough for all purpose riding.”
More info here:
https://www.bikerumor.com/2013/02/11...-dh-handlebar/
If you have a link to some 800mm alloy or Ti bars that are below 150 grams I would love to check them out. Thanks.
I wouldn't expect any carbon fiber thing to be "heavy" compared to something made of steel, for instance. But the way you buy durability with carbon is the make the walls thicker and the weight higher - which is why my Calfee is pretty indestructible, but weighs close to 3 pounds. That's not heavy compared to a 5 pounds lugged steel frame, but it is heavy compared to a 1.8 pound Cervelo. I wouldn't have bought the Calfee if it cost as much as the Cervelo. And that's all any of us have been getting at.
12-23-17, 09:46 AM
#33
Jedi Master
OP, if you're building a randonneuring bike get aluminum handlebars. Compact drops like the somas you have now are a fine match for your frame, since I assume you'll be using brifters.
Last edited by Homebrew01; 12-23-17 at 03:13 PM. Reason: Removed quoted off topic content
12-23-17, 12:13 PM
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You can’t find any because they don’t exist.
800mm Ti and aluminum bars are in the 290 gram range.
Equivalent carbon bars are lighter and at the same time not fragile- as you have erroneously claimed. Nor is the weight higher than aluminum or Ti so that durability can be maintained. “carbon bars and cranks aren't lighter than their aluminum competitors” is demonstrably false.
Re: carbon frame weight and your Calfee example - “But the way you buy durability with carbon is the make the walls thicker and the weight higher”
The best way to evaluate that is to compare like bikes.
For example my carbon frame and fork is 3.63lbs.
The same frame in steel with the same carbon fork is 6.13 pounds.
800mm Ti and aluminum bars are in the 290 gram range.
Equivalent carbon bars are lighter and at the same time not fragile- as you have erroneously claimed. Nor is the weight higher than aluminum or Ti so that durability can be maintained. “carbon bars and cranks aren't lighter than their aluminum competitors” is demonstrably false.
Re: carbon frame weight and your Calfee example - “But the way you buy durability with carbon is the make the walls thicker and the weight higher”
The best way to evaluate that is to compare like bikes.
For example my carbon frame and fork is 3.63lbs.
The same frame in steel with the same carbon fork is 6.13 pounds.
So I'll let you continue having this argument by yourself.
12-23-17, 01:04 PM
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Good luck with your future forum endeavors.
12-23-17, 02:38 PM
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Regarding the original question on vibration cushioning, I often put a layer of cork tape parallel with the bar on the top of the bar and on the top of each drop before I wrap the tape. That way I get twice the thickness of the tape on top where my hands press down on the bars.
I have never ridden carbon bars, have no opinion.
I have never ridden carbon bars, have no opinion.
12-26-17, 09:11 AM
#37
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I would like to see a photo of the randonneur bike with the 800 mm handlebar. It sounds excessive, but what do I know.
01-03-18, 09:24 AM
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there is no literature that would substantiate or disprove such a claim. This thread has gone on too long. Take the material wars to road. Closing.