kingston 

Thanks for the update. 30 hours is probably good enough. I can reliably finish a 600k in 30 hours on the bike.

biker128pedal

njkayaker

The Explore should allow the display of two data items you can choose (this is the case for most of the Edges).

There might be an issue with the firmware on the Explore that doesn't quite allow just using off-course warnings.

The Explore can use a cadence sensor (it can't use power sensors).

The current Garmin map files use about 7GB. The Edge Explore has 16GB. There is more than enough room for more maps.

Go to the Garmin forum to ask about it.

DrHotdogs3

tomtomtom123

I've edited this post, after having done more research. I've narrowed down the currently available and affordable GPS computers that have maps and an acceptable battery life, to 3 models: Bryton Rider 450, Lezyne Mega series, and Wahoo Bolt. The Bryton and Lezyne have very long battery life, but they're both missing some functions that the Wahoo has. Sadly, the Wahoo has much shorter battery life. There doesn't seem to be one model that has it all.

Bryton Rider 450
Advantage: long battery life (35 hours). Can open routes from internal memory. Has Galileo and other alternative GPS systems for better accuracy and wider coverage.
Disadvantage: Cannot import GPX through smartphone, GPX files have to be transferred from PC through a USB cable. Not compatible with TCX and cue sheets. No sync with third party services like Komoot or RWGPS.(except Strava). Lack of communication with customer service.

Lezyne Mega Series
Advantage: long battery life (32 or 48 hours). Can import GPX and TCX from Lezyne Root website and then sync to app. Better spontaneous route creation in Lezyne Ally app than Bryton Active app.
Disadvantage: Cannot open routes from internal memory, so if powered off and then turned on, device must connect with smartphone again to reload routes. No sync with Komoot or RWGPS.

Wahoo Bolt
Advantage: Can open routes from internal memory. Can import GPX and TCX from app. Sync with many third party services. Better spontaneous route creation in Wahoo Element app than Bryton Active app.
Disadvantage: short battery life (15 hours). Most expensive.


Battery life
For multi day trips with limited charging, I think devices need at least 24-30 hours of charge while running GPS and 2 sensors with an active display. The Wahoo Bolt's 15 hours is not enough.

Smartphone dependency
All models require a smartphone for transferring routes to the device. After the routes are stored in local memory, the Bryton and Wahoo devices can open any of the stored routes at any time in the future. So you don't need to reconnect the phone again. But the Lezyne Mega requires a phone connection every time you want to reopen or change to another route, especially if you turn off the device and then turn it back on. This makes the Lezyne completely dependent on a phone when navigating. If you go on a long trip, it would be better to have routes saved on 2 independent devices as a backup (GPS computer and smartphone) in case one device fails or runs out of battery power. This could also be useful on hiking trips. But if you are only using the devices for short daily commutes, perhaps it's not such a big issue.

Route Creation
All 3 devices have companion phone apps that can generate routes. Bryton and Lezyne also have websites that can create routes, but are inferior in quality to the apps, so you might as well do it in the phone. Both Bryton and Lezyne also can review your recorded tracks on the website. Wahoo does not have a website interface, although this is not a problem because you can sync your tracks to other sites with better analysis. The Bryton app only gives you 1 path option during route creation, usually the shortest path, which might not be the best route for bicycles. If you don't like the path, you'll have to insert additional waypoints to try and manipulate the output. The Lezyne and Wahoo apps both give alternative options between waypoints, which can help create a better route, but I don't know if the output is any more bicycle friendly. But I think Komoot and RWGPS create much better routes, which leads to "third party support".

Third Party Support
Wahoo has the best third party support, with the ability to sync with several alternate route creation services. So if you're on the fly and need a quick route, but the device companion app isn't giving you a good one, you can switch to the Komoot app to create a better route, save it, and then quickly sync it to the Wahoo App for transfer to the GPS device. If the third party service is not supported, you can import the GPX or TCX directly with the Wahoo app. With Lezyne, you'll have to manually upload a GPX or TCX to the Lezyne website to then sync to the Lezyne app. With Bryton, you have to transfer the GPX to the device with a USB cable from a PC, which makes third party route creation unusable if you are outside on your bike (although theoretically it may be possible to transfer with OTG cable from a smartphone). Bryton can't read TCX. If you are at home planning a trip in front of a PC, not having third party support may be ok, but is still a little inconvenient.

Navigation
Alll 3 devices give you navigation. But the quality will depend on the route creation and third party support, as described above. All 3 give turn-by-turn navigation if you created the route with their companion app. If you want this with third party routes, they need to be imported with cue sheets in TCX format. Which means Bryton doesn't support third party cue sheets since it can't read TCX. I'm not sure which devices support street names in cue sheets, but some of them do.

Ride Tracking
All 3 devices can track rides. The Lezyne can do this without needing a phone connection, since tracking is a different function from navigation. All 3 support both Bluetooth and ANT+ devices, and have a built in barometer. Both Lezyne and Wahoo have electronic compasses, but I couldn't find it in the documentation for the Bryton 450, although some of Bryton's other devices have it. Ideally, you should be able to track and navigate at the same time, with the option of changing your navigation route while still tracking the same ride. I remember reading that some of the devices should be able to do this, but I don't know if all of them do. The Bryton 450 can also show charts and graphs on it's display (don't know if in real-time or after a track ends). I don't know if the Wahoo or Lezyne devices can display them. I think all 3 devices store in FIT format. One problem with the Bryton is that if you want to export to a third party, you'll have to transfer the files manually from internal memory to your PC with USB cable.

Conclusion
The Wahoo Bolt's third party support for navigation makes it a winner.... except for it's short battery life. Support for syncing with third party navigation is mainly important for short, spontaneous routes while commuting, for example riding in a city. But the short battery life makes it unsuitable for long trips without battery charging. For short rides when battery life is not an issue, I might as well use the Komoot app with its better path findng and mount my smartphone to the handlebar. Komoot doesn't record speed and cadence sensors, but it may not be necessary for short commutes. If I want to see the speed and cadence, I could use a 45€ Bryton Rider 10 (16 hours, Bluetooth) or 73€ Bryton Rider 310 (36 hours, ANT+). With an ANT+ computer, you have the option to connect sensors both to the computer and your smartphone at the same time, if the sensors have dual output of both Bluetooth and ANT+.

The Lezyne Mega series may seem like the next best option if battery life is most important.... except for the requirement for it to always have a phone connection to start navigating any route, since powering off the Lezyne device will make it lose its route.

The Bryton Rider 450 seems to be the most independent device, in every aspect, in terms of being able to operate independently from a smartphone, but also independently without third party support.


Smartphone
So then why not simply use only a smartphone, and connect it with a large capacity powerbank? I also looked at several navigation apps, but none of them have all the features to completely replace a GPS bike computer in all situations.

Komoot App
The website and app both seemed to create the best routes, for both cycling and hiking. Inputting a different type of riding or fitness level produces different paths, which seemed to help control whether it became a faster direct route or a more leisurely, interesting, or strenuous route. But the Komoot App does not connect with sensors. It also cannot use the internal barometer of a smartphone to calculate altitude, and relies solely on GPS for altitude. This would be fine if you only wanted to navigate short commutes when tracking is not necessary. But it's not really a good solution for longer trips when you want to collect biometric data. Although you could simply use a GPS computer without navigation features at the same time to run your sensors. A problem with the Komoot app is not having multiple map source options. But you can download its maps for your routes for offline navigation. Komoot app also features points of interests along the route.

Ride With GPS App
RWGPS website also creates excellent routes (although less so for hiking), but in my short tests, Komoot seemed to create better paths. RWGPS can only create routes on the website, and not in the app, which is only used for navigation and tracking. Although the app has the advantage of being able to connect with sensors for tracking. But the website also has the problem of not being optimized for small screens and touch input. So you would have to pre-plan all trips with RWGPS on a PC before being able to navigate with the app. The RWGPS app can also download offline maps. The RWGPS website also has special (paid) tools that allow you to easily split or merge routes.

Locus and OruxMaps
Locus and OruxMaps are incredibly feature rich apps that allow you to load your own custom maps and routes for navigation, mainly for the purpose of running offline maps, while tracking at the same time. OruxMaps has some of the best customization and flexibility, except that it's difficult to find the offline maps for it. I had a brief test of Locus, and it seems to have similar features with OruxMaps, but the benefit of Locus is its availability of multiple sources of offline maps for download directly from inside the app itself, and it's easier interface. Locus seems to also have better route creation than OruxMaps, although not as good as Komoot. OruxMaps' route creation is basic. Both OruxMaps and Locus support Bluetooth and ANT+ sensors, but I have not tested this.

Others
I briefly looked at MapMyRide, Maps.Me, and OSMand, but either their route creation was not as good as Komoot and RWGPS, or their offline map capability was not as good as Locus and OruxMaps.


Conclusion
If I were to only ride with a smartphone, I think Komoot would be the best app to have for quick, on the fly and spontaneous route creation and navigation. However it won't track with sensors. But I could run another app at the same time for tracking, such as RWGPS. If I were going on a long and preplanned trip with only a smartphone, I would probably create the route on the Komoot website (while comparing it with the other map sources of RWGPS) and load it into Locus for offline navigation and tracking.

I would not use only a GPS computer by itself, since they all rely on a phone connection with the companion app at some point in the trip. Although Lezyne has the disadvantage of not being able to save routes in internal memory and always needing to connect with the phone to reload any route after powering off.

If I were to go on a longer trip, I would take both a smartphone and a GPS computer (if I decide to buy one). Because of its long battery life, and being able to operate independently from a phone so that you always have a backup device, I would probably choose the Bryton, even though it lacks third party support. And then occasionally taking a peek at Locus on the phone for points of interests and street names. The Bryton would be fine for pre-planned routes. And for spontaneous changes in the middle of a trip, I'd switch over to navigating with the Komoot app on the smartphone while continuing to track with the Bryton.

tomtomtom123

After using Locus Map for several days, I've decided that it's the best solution for me that's currently available at this time. The GPS computers aren't flexible enough for my use, because they're either lacking in battery life, have phone dependency, or can't navigate well or load third party routes.

Locus Map can track with BT and ANT+ speed and cadence sensors, will automatically reconnect when you start riding after a pause (although must be manually activated each time the app starts up from off), and has offline mapping, offline route generation, offline navigation, and offline rerouting. You can see your route on a full color map with elevation shading, load multiple routes at the same time, pan the map, change map sources, overlay 2 maps on top of each other, turn on night mode (dark map), look at statistics, maps, and charts for any route, including the current tracking being recorded, and save pinned waypoints. It can tell you the elevation where you point the cursor on the map (you'll need to download the elevation data), and shows weather information. Then you can customize the display to show the live data coming from your sensors and tracking.

It takes 3-5 hours to get very familiar with all the different settings though, but that's because it has so many options. You need a few rides to learn how to customize the display and to find out which values in the settings works best for you, for things like how frequent and how soon to notify you of a turn, the distance you get off route before it warns or attempts to reroute you. It takes another hour to learn how to setup the plugin for offline route generation and offline rerouting.

An important feature is the display control, which allows it to show the map over the lock-screen, and can automatically turn on and off the screen when a turn notification comes up. You can also set how many seconds the screen stays on. There is also a gesture control, which allows you to turn on the display by waving your hand over the proximity sensor of your phone, so you don't need to fiddle with the power button to get the screen to turn on. With the automatic display on/off control, I think I can squeeze out 10-12 hours from the 2700mAh battery in my phone with the GPS and BT sensors active. With a 10000mAh powerbank, I could get the phone to work for 4 days. My waterproof klickfix roll up phone handlebar mount bag has a secondary pocket to store and connect the powerbank.

To get most of these features, you need to pay the $10 cost for the pro version of the app. But they're planning to release a newer version in the near future that is subscription based. But supposedly they'll continue to support the old pro version for the people who paid the one time fee.

I did pay the one time fee for Komoot, because its route generation is almost all the time much better. Although there were a few times that Komoot wouldn't draw a path through a few gravel paths, when Locus Map's plugins would successfully draw. But Locus doesn't have a quick way to do a round trip loop, and you'll need to add a few extra points to get it to complete the loop. If I make a route with Komoot, I would export the GPX, save it to my phone and load it into Locus. Locus can generate offline turn-by-turn navigation from a GPX file without cue sheets, but will not have street names though. But routes generated with Locus online will have street names in the navigation.

The route generation with Locus Map uses either one of 3 possible plugins, which have different profiles and settings, and and each of them might give you a slightly different route. The Broute plugin is the only one that works offline.

prj71

For a point of clarification...The Lezyne only requires a brief phone connection to upload rides from the GPS Ally app to the Lezyne device. It does not need a phone connection for navigating once the upload to the device is complete

Ride with GPS is able to create turn by turn directions that can be uploaded as a GPX file to the Lezyne GPS root site which is then available on the Lezyne Ally app for uploading to the GPS device.

For the money, the features and the battery life... the Lezyne GPS units can't be beat.

tomtomtom123

but what I've been told by technical support is that if you turn off the lezyne, it will lose its memory, so you will need to resend the route with a phone connection again when you turn it back on.

So in case you go out without your phone, and your device powers off, you can no longer navigate until you go home and reconnect the phone.

So it's not possible to load several days of routes and use the device over several days while turning it off and on each day, without always connecting the phone each day.

Tourist in MSN

That is not the GPS I use, so maybe my experience is not relevant? But, my GPS has on a couple of occasions shut off from hitting a pothole with the bike or some other sudden impact, I think the battery connection was lost for a few milliseconds (two AA batteries) and that was enough to shut off my GPS.

prj71

Why would you turn it off in the middle of a ride?

That wouldn't happen. Always carry it along for emergency use.

unterhausen

I would like confirmation from an owner of one of these units that this is the case. I always load a course on the device, and then start it to make sure it can be parsed properly. Then turn the device off. I wouldn't want to have to wait around at the start to load the course on the device, seems silly in the days of nearly free persistent memory.

tomtomtom123

I can think of a few scenarios when you'd want to turn off the device, or when you cannot use the phone.

1) You want to turn the GPS computer off at the end of the day on a multiday trip so that you don't drain the battery while you sleep, but your phone has broken, or the phone and powerbank have ran out of battery, so you can no longer operate the GPS computer when you turn it back on. The only way to preserve the route in this case, is to keep the device on overnight, otherwise its memory will clear if you turn it off. Also, I'm not sure, but if the way that you load the route is one-by-one (can't load several at once), and you have your routes cut up into one separate file per day, you cannot load several days of routes at the same time on the device. So you always need a phone connection in the morning at the start of each day's multi-day trip.

2) You take a train 10 hours to the start of a route, so you keep the GPS computer off to conserve battery until you reach the end of the train ride. Shutting it off means that when you arrive at the destination train station, you need to turn it back on and reconnect with the phone to load the route. You won't be able to load it at home and keep it saved in memory, unless you keep the GPS computer on for the whole 10 hour train ride. But when you get off the train, you discover that you've forgotten to bring your phone and it's been left at home. So you can no longer load the route into the GPS device. The only way to be safe is to load the route at home and keep the GPS computer powered on, while draining its battery until the start of the ride.

3) [similar to scenario 1] The day's trip has a 5 hour stop in the middle of the day. You only have a 20% charge remaining on the GPS computer, and your phone and powerbank are drained. You still have another 5 hours of riding after the 5 hour stop. The 20% charge is not enough to last 10 hours. If only you could shut off GPS computer during the 5 hour stop, this would conserve enough power to last until the end of the ride, but doing so will wipe the memory, so you cannot.

There is no practical reason not to design a device to save a route on internal memory, so that it can be switch off, and then allow you to reload the route from internal memory once you switch it back on.


The reason why I will stick to using only the phone, and not include a GPS bike computer on a trip, is because the phone can do much more and with flexibility (locus map). And I'd rather use the power bank to charge a single device than to charge 2 devices when 1 of them (Lezyne) is reliant on the other in order to operate. The Wahoo can operate independently after you've loaded the route into memory, but its 15 hour battery life is much too short and consumption rate too high. The Bryton is both independent and has a long battery life, but lacks third party route support and needs a USB cable to transfer custom routes, with some file compatibility issues. I will always still need to keep the phone powered on, because I would need to pan around on the map to look at what's ahead, or search for points of interest along the way. The GPS computers will only show you the map at your current GPS location (can't pan around the map). If the phone breaks down, the Lezyne becomes useless on a multiday trip. If the phone breaks down, I also can't use the phone for navigation. But then in both cases, whether or not I bring a GPS computer, I'll simply go back to the old way of navigating with a paper map, compass, and the simple wired magnetic bike computer that I have attached to my front wheel to measure the distance travelled. I have the old wired bike computer as a backup, and the battery lasts for a few hundred hours. In the worst case, I'd take the battery out of the bluetooth wireless sensor on the rear, and save it for the front wired bike computer.

83cannondale

Really liking my Wahoo bolt - I've done a 200 and 300 with it. Tried lezyne super gps because of batt life - it was too cranky over the long run.

I have the bolt hooked to USB WERKS which keeps it constantly charging off dynamo so batt life no issue. I use edulex II with tail light at same time and seems to work fine. Got caught in rain and it didn't seem to be affected.

Bolt screens are easily customized. It also has wifi so can update RIDE W GPS and other apps automatically. Been having problem with strava updating though.

clasher

Strava works fine when I use my home wifi with the bolt but it was taking many tries to upload a ride through my phone when I was using hotel wifi a few weeks ago after the app got a big update. I dunno if that has something to do with it or not...

83cannondale

Update on not uploading to Strava - it seems that when I follow a longer RIDE WITH GPS route then the upload chokes. Don't know about shorter routes. I did a 25 mile no route ride yesterday and it uploaded without a hitch - go figure..

Tourist in MSN

Thank you very much for your extensive post. I appreciate seeing the results of others that have spent some time doing comparison research.

dim

njkayaker

You can save GPX files from BaseCamp.

You can copy GPX files to the \Garmin\NewFiles folder on any of the Edges.

biker128pedal

Done that but also just drag and drop in BaseCamp. Though lately my WIN10 Computer is having USB issues (Unknown USB Device) and can take some effort connecting anything USB. All three Garmins, iPhone 6 and printer.

njkayaker

???

Those USB issues have nothing to do with BaseCamp.

The 1030 and the Explore will both work with BaseCamp (if the USB works).