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Which old bikes for randonneuring?

Old 11-05-18, 03:59 PM
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My 1971 Raleigh/Carlton International, built largely from my parts bin. Compact crank, bars, saddle are newer. Not intended as full-on Rando but easily adapted. I fit Compass Bon Jon 35s on it, they're a pleasure to ride on pavement or dirt.

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Old 11-05-18, 09:47 PM
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Wow. Very nice build!

Originally Posted by ascherer View Post
My 1971 Raleigh/Carlton International, built largely from my parts bin. Compact crank, bars, saddle are newer. Not intended as full-on Rando but easily adapted. I fit Compass Bon Jon 35s on it, they're a pleasure to ride on pavement or dirt.

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Old 11-07-18, 08:39 AM
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That International is really nice. I'm too old for gearing like that though
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Old 11-10-18, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
That International is really nice. I'm too old for gearing like that though
Thank you! Current low is 34-28. I added a hanger extender and I think I might be able to squeeze a 30 or maybe even a 32 on it. Some day I may change the rear derailleur to a long cage.
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Old 11-10-18, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ascherer View Post
Thank you! Current low is 34-28. I added a hanger extender and I think I might be able to squeeze a 30 or maybe even a 32 on it. Some day I may change the rear derailleur to a long cage.
I'd personally switch to a derailleur that shipped as a long-cage when making that change. Not only could you save weight (i.e. with a higher-end SunTour derailleur), but long-cage mods on old Campy derailleurs look kind of weird; the Nuovo Record aesthetic only really "clicks" when the pivot point of the cage is somewhere close to the center point between the two pulleys.
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Old 11-11-18, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
I'd personally switch to a derailleur that shipped as a long-cage when making that change. Not only could you save weight (i.e. with a higher-end SunTour derailleur), but long-cage mods on old Campy derailleurs look kind of weird; the Nuovo Record aesthetic only really "clicks" when the pivot point of the cage is somewhere close to the center point between the two pulleys.
I wouldn't change the cage on the NR, I've seen the Soma cages but that's not they way I'd go. Right now the International is fairly vintage because I had most of the components on hand. I like it but am not super attached and it has its limitations. It's equally likely I'd go with a modern wide-range setup.
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Old 11-11-18, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ascherer View Post
I wouldn't change the cage on the NR, I've seen the Soma cages but that's not they way I'd go. Right now the International is fairly vintage because I had most of the components on hand. I like it but am not super attached and it has its limitations. It's equally likely I'd go with a modern wide-range setup.
I am not sure if a non-Campy rear derailleur would fit on those older Campy dropouts. And the old Campy Rally derailleurs cost a fortune, so you might have to stick with the Neuvo Record.

My 60s vintage Italian bike had a Campy Grand Sport derailleur that came apart when a bolt unthreaded on it and I could not find all the parts in the tall grass in the ditch. That was in the mid 80s and I put a Neuvo Record on the bike to replace it. And occasionally rode it but with tubular tires it mostly sat in storage. But a few years ago I picked up a pair of used clincher wheels with 126mm dropout spacing that I could squeeze into the 120mm frame. At that time I decided to do a bit of modernization on the bike. That included one of the last Campy triples that ran a square taper, photo attached.

I can't use all of the six sprockets on the freewheel when I am on the granny gear on the triple, the rear derailleur cage won't take up all the slack. But it was a good way to add some lower gears when I could not handle a wider range cluster. I also put modern handlebars, brake levers, threadless stem and SPD pedals on it, but otherwise it is mostly 60s to 80s technology. Still using the original early 60s front derailleur, it just barely has the range needed to shift the triple.

There are a lot of ways you could tweak that International if you wanted to, but it does have its limitations.



The green paint on mine is my second attempt to paint it, but the primer did not adhere well to the steel tubing so I am not sure if I want to try a third time or not.
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Old 11-12-18, 08:08 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I am not sure if a non-Campy rear derailleur would fit on those older Campy dropouts. ...
No worries there! The old Campagnolo derailleur hanger set the industry standard; any modern derailleur will fit, and that's defining "modern" very broadly indeed (no problem with any Japanese derailleur I've ever seen, any Italian derailleur, and so on). The only thing that will not fit is something quite old, such as Cyclo, Huret or Simplex.
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Old 11-12-18, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
No worries there! The old Campagnolo derailleur hanger set the industry standard; any modern derailleur will fit, and that's defining "modern" very broadly indeed (no problem with any Japanese derailleur I've ever seen, any Italian derailleur, and so on). The only thing that will not fit is something quite old, such as Cyclo, Huret or Simplex.
Thanks for posting. I made my comment because I remember a friend tried to put a non-Campy derailleur on a Campy dropout in the 80s, did not work. I thought it was a Suntour or Shimano, but perhaps it was a Huret?
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Old 11-13-18, 07:42 AM
  #35  
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Huret and Simplex both used the Simplex dropout attachment. Huret had two versions of most of their derailleurs, one to fit Simplex and the other to fit Campagnolo. Simplex had some that fit both as well.
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Old 11-13-18, 07:56 AM
  #36  
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^^I don't think it's quite that simple.




But practically speaking, it probably doesn't matter. Almost every derailleur made today will fit on a Campagnolo dropout. The only exception I can think of is a chain stay mounted derailleur used on some folding bikes, but I'm sure someone will come up with other exceptions. I have nothing against old 'obsolete' technology; some of it was really quite good. But I can't recall having seen anyone (other than myself, that is) riding a brevet on a bike with one of the older, funkier derailleurs.
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Old 11-13-18, 10:49 AM
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Well, that's true that on the French side of things you can really go down a rabbit hole of incompatibility. They probably thought it was their due because they invented the derailleur and were using them long before anyone else got over their obsession with chain efficiency and realized that rider efficiency was far more important.

But my main point was that Huret and Simplex were making derailleurs that fit in Campagnolo dropouts a fairly long time ago. When I was a teenager in the '70s, my friend had a Jubilee on his Teledyne Titan. It was too spindly for my tastes, so I had a drillium Suntour on mine. If someone wants to use one of the incompatible French derailleurs, well, quoting grandma Unterhausen, "bless their heart."

And yes, I'm one of the evil people that tapped customer's PX-10s to fit a Campagnolo compatible rear derailleur and I'm unapologetic about it.
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Old 11-13-18, 10:54 AM
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Speaking of bizarre shifting systems, I was a little unhappy to find a set of Campagnolo Cambio Corsa dropouts in a "sold" search on Ebay. Also included the axle, which is a fairly important part. I should set up a search for that so they send me an email. The shifting parts seem to come up more often

Oh, and if you want to go all rando-retro, there are videos on youtube of C.S. Hirose making a Cyclo-style rear derailleur. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjv...kqD1r5g2ISTjeQ
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Old 11-13-18, 11:18 AM
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Well, if we're going to speak of bizarre shifting systems, I guess I get to show a photo of my Fothergill....



A Sturmey Archer AW three speed hub with two cogs, shifted by a Trivelox Model B derailleur, resulting in six gears, almost perfectly spaced, from 41 to 82 gear inches, not that different from a lot of classic 1970's "ten speeds." Double shifts are often needed, but for a system available in the 30's, it's pretty good.

I guess in this thread we should distinguish between an old bike that can be used for randonneuring (which could could be almost any decent old bike, assuming it's in good condition) and choosing one that you want to set up specifically for that purpose. For the latter, I strongly recommend something with a standard derailleur mount, and if you want fenders (which I also recommend), vertical dropouts are better than horizontal.
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Old 11-13-18, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
... a photo of my Fothergill....



.
Great saddle bag.
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Old 11-13-18, 04:10 PM
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This is my 1974 Raleigh International. I bought it as a frame/fork, so nothing is original. It now has a Brooks C17 saddle on it. I use it as a commuting bike, but you could say it was rando-inspired. Some cyclephiles have looked at it and said, "Nice rando build."

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Old 11-14-18, 11:27 AM
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my new goal in life is electronic cyclo-style derailleurs
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Old 11-18-18, 06:17 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
my new goal in life is electronic cyclo-style derailleurs
I just sent another old frame off to my friend Mark (@gugie) to be modified into a randonneuring bike. It won't have electronic shifting, nor a Cyclo style derailleur, but close enough to deserve mention.

The derailleur is going to be a SunTour S1, a retrograde innovation they introduced just before they closed up shop in the early 90's. It mounts to the chain stay (like a Cyclo). It comes with a chain hanger similar to the Campagnolo PortaCatena of the early 80's: before you remove the wheel you shift the chain into the chain hanger, and then it's easy to remove the wheel. I've never tried it, and I want to.

The goal is for a travel bike, Rinko style, that is easy to disassemble and pack for public transit.
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Old 11-18-18, 07:19 AM
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okay, that's weird unless you are used to cyclo, in which case it's perfectly normal. I find it mildly amusing that the patent drawing shows it mounted on a bike with an unused dropout hanger for a derailleur US Patent 5,380,253 - SunTour S-1

What would be really cool is electronic Cambio Corsa.
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Old 11-18-18, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
okay, that's weird unless you are used to cyclo, in which case it's perfectly normal. I find it mildly amusing that the patent drawing shows it mounted on a bike with an unused dropout hanger for a derailleur US Patent 5,380,253 - SunTour S-1
No, look at the drawing again; the hanger on the dropout is employed to hold the C-shaped doodah curling up behind the dropout, which is the chain hanger that I mentioned.

To be fair, the S1 is a lot more like a Nivex or Altenburger deraileur than a Cyclo. One of the problems with a Cyclo type mechanism is that it is rigid. If the bike falls over on the right side, the derailleur cannot deflect, and is likely to get bent no matter how robust the mount. The S1 should not have that problem.

When a bike is packed rinko style, it is hard to protect the derailleur from damage. It is at just about the most exposed location. So when Mark shipped his bike out east to tour Long Island with me and attend Peter Weigle's FFD open house, he was obliged to remove both derailleur and chain. I'm hoping the S1 will avoid any of that.

I've been riding derailleur bikes for 40 years and am comfortable enough getting the wheel out past the chain, getting it back in again, etc. It's not rocket science. But it is tricky enough, and in certain conditions, like when it's dark and raining and your hands are numb and you haven't slept in a while, it can be aggravating. And in general chainstay mounted derailleurs exacerbate the difficulty. So again I'm optimistic the S1 will simplify this process.

I will be limited to a 7-speed cassette, though.

So yes, I admit it's pretty weird. But there is some logic to it. Whether it will live up to my expectations, well... I'll let you know.

Originally Posted by unterhausen;20668000​​​​​​
What would be really cool is electronic Cambio Corsa.
?
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Old 11-18-18, 03:21 PM
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I have seen some really elaborate guards on cyclo derailleurs, I suppose bending them is a problem.
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Old 01-29-19, 11:49 AM
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FYI I switched out the Miyata wheels with the wheels on my road bike- 105 5600 hubs laced to 32h Mavic CXP-33s. Light but not super light. I saved two pounds. Minus the rack that gets the miyata down to 26lbs with fenders and a Brooks leather saddle. Not too bad, and I think I could get it a pound lighter with some not so crazy upgrades.
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Old 03-06-19, 04:43 PM
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The Raleigh Competition name was used on bikes with very little in common, other than relative price position in the Raleigh line-up. Early 70s and end 60s frames were slack and comfortable, would take wide tires with decent clearance. They are quite old now, if you go that route look for a creampuff, not a worn out soldier. In spite of the reputation and cachet in certain circles they still can be found for not that much. My brother had a '71 with near mint paint, all original but for a very nice Brooks Pro, and had to try a long time to sell it for 250.

Why not get a real randonneur? They come from France. Prices are very low. My Bernard Carré with handbuilt lugs, low trail geometry, 20 pounds for a 56.5 frame with pedals clips and straps and a bottle cage was all of 200 Euro. With shipping, new tires, pads and cables just over $500 on the road. Original paint in lovely condition. Even the wheels were in perfect true and tension, with sealed bearing hubs.
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