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Ready to give-up on tubeless road tires

Old 11-30-20, 07:25 PM
  #76  
downtube42
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The idea is, small flats are avoided due to sealant, larger holes get plugged, and anything that doesn't work out that way gets tubed. Once tubed, behave as tubed. Every rando i know running tubeless does it that way. "never going back" is what i hear.

Trying to add sealant or seat tubeless on the road is a no go. If the tire comes off, a tube guess in.
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Old 11-30-20, 09:32 PM
  #77  
unterhausen
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I have carried sealant, was thinking it would go in through the valve like I usually do. I might even have a syringe in my handle bar bag. I need to get some plugs if I convert a bike. I had some slow leaks last year that were really annoying and not having to fix them would have been really nice. Using tubes, I haven't had a flat with large airflow in a while, but that's just luck. Well, I had one on the day before PBP, which was a real bummer in the rain. There was glass on the path leading to the chateau de Rambouillet
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Old 12-03-20, 04:28 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
I have no idea what someone would be doing on the side of the road for 90 minutes? What is all this fuss about?
Well, in ideal conditions I can replace a tube in a normal tire in about 5 minutes from dismount to remount. That includes disassembly, accessing the tools, the repair, repacking the gear and reassembly. If it is a tubeless system and I have a flat I have to first identify if it a puncture that wont seal, a valve issue, a liner issue or a sealant problem. There is no quick and clean fix if you have to put a tube in a tubeless system. EVERYTHING is more difficult and takes longer that it would otherwise. I have struggled through this a couple of times personally and it really sucked! If you are on a gravel road shoulder then keeping it all clean also takes extra time. If it is dark then you can double the time required, if it is raining then double it again, if you are 20 hours into your ride, cold and hungry then it can become nearly impossible! These things nearly always happen when it is least convenient so you can count on that.

I know of several other randos who also tried tubeless and went back to tubes. They decided like myself that even though there may be fewer flats with tubeless, when they did have a problem it was a lot more time consuming to deal with than compared to a standard tire and tube system. Perhaps it is the regions in which I often ride, which can be far removed from any services and even cellular signal, but I want to know that I can make a repair and get back under way. This is just a personal choice and not a judgement of others who choose differently. Just be prepared for the unlikely circumstances or accept the DNF!
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Old 12-03-20, 08:12 PM
  #79  
Atlas Shrugged
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I am the last one to judge someone anyone 20 hours into a ride and agree a tight fitting tubeless tire would be a nightmare on a cold rainy night if it needs to be replaced.
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Old 12-04-20, 06:05 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Oldairhead View Post
Well, in ideal conditions I can replace a tube in a normal tire in about 5 minutes from dismount to remount. That includes disassembly, accessing the tools, the repair, repacking the gear and reassembly. If it is a tubeless system and I have a flat I have to first identify if it a puncture that wont seal, a valve issue, a liner issue or a sealant problem. There is no quick and clean fix if you have to put a tube in a tubeless system. EVERYTHING is more difficult and takes longer that it would otherwise. I have struggled through this a couple of times personally and it really sucked! If you are on a gravel road shoulder then keeping it all clean also takes extra time. If it is dark then you can double the time required, if it is raining then double it again, if you are 20 hours into your ride, cold and hungry then it can become nearly impossible! These things nearly always happen when it is least convenient so you can count on that.

I know of several other randos who also tried tubeless and went back to tubes. They decided like myself that even though there may be fewer flats with tubeless, when they did have a problem it was a lot more time consuming to deal with than compared to a standard tire and tube system. Perhaps it is the regions in which I often ride, which can be far removed from any services and even cellular signal, but I want to know that I can make a repair and get back under way. This is just a personal choice and not a judgement of others who choose differently. Just be prepared for the unlikely circumstances or accept the DNF!
Oldairhead : You're a rock star if you can replace a tube in 5 minutes from dismount to remount! My experience with tubeless is just the opposite from what you state above. I've had more frequent punctures (not necessarily flats), but it takes much less time to perform a roadside repair compared to tubes. And as you say, it's a personal choice. No right or wrong. It's nice to have options!
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Old 12-04-20, 10:08 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Cycletography View Post
Oldairhead : You're a rock star if you can replace a tube in 5 minutes from dismount to remount!
Well, I did qualify the statement by saying "under ideal conditions". For example; a front wheel, easy to ID the source of the problem, good weather and a park bench, good CO2 inflator deployment etc. I realize that things rarely work out like that though.
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Old 12-04-20, 02:25 PM
  #82  
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now that just about every rim is tubeless ready, putting tubeless tape in makes a lot of sense, even if you are using tubes. 2 wraps for road tires.

If you have a tubeless ready tire on a tubeless ready rim, it's even harder to get off if there is a tube. Just did it the other day in the shop when someone bought a new wheel, and I didn't enjoy it.
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Old 12-04-20, 02:30 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
now that just about every rim is tubeless ready, putting tubeless tape in makes a lot of sense, even if you are using tubes. 2 wraps for road tires.

If you have a tubeless ready tire on a tubeless ready rim, it's even harder to get off if there is a tube. Just did it the other day in the shop when someone bought a new wheel, and I didn't enjoy it.
I recently discovered that too (and my hands still hurt).

Is there any definitive way to figure out if a rim is tubeless-compatible? I gave a bike to a friend along with 40mmWTB nano tubeless tires, and they are very difficult to mount with tubes. That alone is a good enough reason to set them up tubeless. (Wheels are Specialized Axis 1.0 fwiw).
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Old 12-04-20, 08:07 PM
  #84  
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If they have shelves on the side to capture the bead, they are tubeless ready. Just about every rim made in the last 2 years is tubeless ready. Tubeless ready are actually fine with tubes. You have to push the beads into the center groove, which, in many cases, is deeper on tubeless rims than it is on older rims.

There is a lot of variability in rim size, and there always has been. Some of the rims made for production bikes are smaller than they should be, because it's easier to get tires on at the factory and the vast majority of bikes are still shipped with tubes.
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Old 12-07-20, 09:49 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Cycletography View Post
In the specific case of pich flats, can we at least agree that tubeless is the better option?
In my experience if you run wider tires at pressures suitable for tarmac and gravel roads then pinch flats are really not much of an issue. After 32,000 km (20,000 mi) on Compass/Rene Herse Babyshoe Pass 650B x 42 run at 3.0 bar / 42 psi I have yet to pinch flat. In the same time I've also only had 3-4 regular punctures from pins and other sharp debris. Tubeless solves a problem that I don't have

Pinch flats are more of an issue on narrow tires, which also are not as good a fit for tubeless because of the relatively high tire pressures they require (especially for heavier riders).
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Old 12-08-20, 06:52 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by joewein View Post
In my experience if you run wider tires at pressures suitable for tarmac and gravel roads then pinch flats are really not much of an issue. ...
Tubeless solves a problem that I don't have

Pinch flats are more of an issue on narrow tires, ....
Agree 100 percent.
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Old 12-08-20, 08:37 AM
  #87  
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My tubeless tires can be mounted by hand and sealed with a floor pump. Due to variations from manufacturer (both wheels and tires), I try to do as much research as possible before I choose what I am going to use.

A proper double wrap tape job using quality tape 4mm wider than internal width (DT Swiss Tape!), will seal a tire better than some wheels that don't require tape. I'm talking about the standard PSI loss when a bike is sitting for extended periods.

I research what sealant I am going to use as well and look at the studies on which seals the best (Orange Seal!). If I have to deal with a puncture that will not seal, I use Dyna Plugs...I also research how to use them effectively. Yeah, if you are just learning on the side of the road it's going to take extra time. If you are prepared, you are literally back riding in a matter of minutes.

If I have to use a tube (I never have had to yet), I can break the seal, remove the valve and insert a tube just as fast as anyone who is adept at changing tires...you would be surprised how many people understand how to change a tire, but when it comes down to practical application fumble all over the place. Knowing and doing are two different things.

Even if using a tube took longer to change (which for me it doesn't), the ride quality of tubeless tires makes it worth it to me. Also if it took extra time (which it doesn't for me), the benefit of not dealing with a nasty dirty drivetrain makes it worth it to me. That suck factor is compounded even more if you have to deal with that at night...in the cold...or being wet.

JMO and JME
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Old 12-09-20, 05:34 PM
  #88  
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I'm moving forward with changing at least one rando bike to 32mm tubeless. We'll see what happens!
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Old 12-10-20, 12:37 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
If I have to use a tube (I never have had to yet), I can break the seal, remove the valve and insert a tube just as fast as anyone who is adept at changing tires...
How do you know you're just as fast, if you've never had to do it?

Also if it took extra time (which it doesn't for me), the benefit of not dealing with a nasty dirty drivetrain makes it worth it to me.
How does installing a tube in a tubeless setup eliminate dealing with a dirty drivetrain?
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Old 12-10-20, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
How do you know you're just as fast, if you've never had to do it?


How does installing a tube in a tubeless setup eliminate dealing with a dirty drivetrain?
I have changed many clinchers, and I'm pretty good at it.

You plug the tire right on the bike. Don't have to take it off.
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Old 12-10-20, 12:59 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
I have changed many clinchers, and I'm pretty good at it.
I'm sure you are, but how does that guarantee you can install a tube in a tubeless setup just as fast?

You plug the tire right on the bike. Don't have to take it off.
Sorry, I thought you were discussing how it doesn't take any extra time to install a tube in a tubeless setup:

Even if using a tube took longer to change (which for me it doesn't), the ride quality of tubeless tires makes it worth it to me. Also if it took extra time (which it doesn't for me), the benefit of not dealing with a nasty dirty drivetrain makes it worth it to me. That suck factor is compounded even more if you have to deal with that at night...in the cold...or being wet.
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Old 12-10-20, 01:07 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
With tubed tires, a string of bad luck usually means you just replace a bunch of tubes. With tubeless tires, a string of bad luck can mean dealing with sealant messiness, tire-seating problems, ruined tires, etc. That's the most often cited reason I've heard from people who have abandoned road tubeless, i.e. the downside of tubeless is greater than the downside of tubes.
This was my experience with tubeless after a year of wanting to like it, on both road and MTB. It's unpleasant work in a shop, but problems are always worse when you have them in the middle of nowhere.
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Old 12-15-20, 03:54 PM
  #93  
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I've been using tubeless road tires since 2011.
Shimano rims with Hutchinson tubeless fusion tires and Stan's sealant.
I use this tubeless setup on races and Brevets.
Without an escort on a race if I get a flat I'm finished. Flatting with tubeless is less likely. I have never flatted on a race with tubeless.
I used race 5 times a year. Now I'm down to 2.
I used tubeless on Brevets because I hate repairing a flat in the cold, rain or at night.
In all these years most of the small holes self-sealed themselves. In one occasion it didn't because of insufficient sealant (my fault).
Most of my flats were from tire slits either in the sidewall or tread. I don't know if they could all be repaired with a plug, but in my case I added a boot and inner tube which was a hassle.
The valve needs a small leatherman type pliers to unscrew because it's been tightened not to leak, and cannot be unscrewed by hand.
The sealant is a mess, and usually the tubeless tire is difficult to mount with a tube.
It's definitely more involved than replacing an inner tube.
I have no experience using a plug, but I'm going to try it in the future.
My latest flat was caused by corrosion around the valve hole that the sealant could seal; a plug wouldn't have helped.
Stan's sealant definitely corrodes Shimano rims, even the ones with the new alloy.
Stan says its sealant is non-corrosive, and that the alloy is at fault, and Shimano says the sealant is corrosive. The fact is the rims corrode.

The other problem is when you remove the tires from the rim to clean the setup that I do once a year it is very difficult to re-seal the used tire back on the rim even using a compressor. Sometimes I have to replace the tire with a new one even though the used one is not worn.
I don't know if this is due to the combination of tires to specific rim that I'm using.
Maybe, using a pump with an air cylinder would solve this problem.
If the cleaning would coincide with replacing the tires for wear this would not be a problem. So maybe, I should have using the tubeless setup consistently.
Since my races have dwindled down to 2 per year, and my Brevets are less than 300k, and the weather has to be decent maybe it's an overkill using tubeless road tires.
Also, I think that the quality of the regular road tires has improved over the years. I don't seem to be getting many flats even though the roads are deteriorating.
I will definitely continue using tubeless tires on my Mtn bike.
So I am still in a dilemma.
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