Chris_W

Here's a carbon bike made that is specifically for doing Audax events, the Pearson Audax pro:

Tom N.

Nice reply Homeyba. You're bike sounds pretty nice and, with a few tweaks, could be a great Audax machine . But rather than engage in a 'mine is bigger than yours' exercise, I'd like to explore your comment that: "Just because a bike has a lax geometry does not make it more comfortable than a bike that does not have lax geometry. That is a myth."

I agree that lax geometry does not necessarily increase comfort in the way most people think - eg less transmission of shock up the steering axis - but my understanding is that it does in at least one other way. Specifically, your butt is further behind the BB which means that your legs are doing more of the lifting (of your body) relative to your arms - that is, there is less weight on the arms. On ultra long distance rides, upper body strength becomes a limiting factor for many riders.

There are of course other geometry factors that affect comfort - TT length, HT length, wheelbase and compliance in the rear triangle. But I agree - lax HT angles are more for stability (though of course that also depends on fork rake and thus trail).

USAZorro

That's exactly what I would consider it to be - plus designed to accommodate tires in the 28 - 35 mm range, integrated racks and lighting also. It doesn't mean if you choose to ride something different, you're doing something wrong, but there definitely has been a formula developed by a substantial segment of enthusiasts.

Homeyba

It all depends on your body and what works for you! That is the single most important thing you can do for any long distance rider. We are all different and there is no single perfect model that fits everyone. Back in the 1990's, when I first got onto long distance riding (long before I first did RAAM) I went to a fitter (John Cutter). The goal was to fit me on a bike so I could be comfortable to do rides like PBP. I wasn't racing at the time so comfort was paramount. He had me on a fit bike for 6hrs. When we were done I had a set of numbers that laid out the geometry for the perfect long distance bike for me. It turns out the Colnago matched those numbers almost perfectly. I didn't go out to buy a Colnago, it just happened to be the perfect bike for me. If those numbers had matched a Rivendale or Waterford I'd have been on one of those.

You are correct that lots of geometry factors that affect comfort - TT length, HT length, wheelbase etc. but if you get those fit numbers and it turns out race geometry frame is the right one for you, buy the darned thing! My point is "randoneurs should be on whatever bike is the most comfortable bike for them." Racks, fenders, bags and all that other BS is ancillary and can be added latter to any bike if you really want it. Maybe not as conveniently on a carbon bike but it can be done.

People keep bringing up being comfy on the bike for 3 days (ie a 1200k). Nearly every RAAM racer is on a race geometry bike and they are on the bike non-stop for 9-11days. Do you think they aren't comfortable? I certainly wouldn't be out there for that length of time on a bike that I wasn't extremely comfortable on.

The bike itself doesn't matter nearly as much as your fit on that bike!!!! That's why I say a rando bike is the one you ride!

bmike

I've seen many a RAAM photo... and you couldn't sell me on the 'comfort' factor. Its not like they are out there advertising for LaZboy.

I did a full brevet series on a racy bike, LeMond Carbon Steel Zurich. Liked it well enough - but for me fenders and wider tires were a must... so I built something out of Ti and steel.

And I agree with what else you said... Rider + Bike is what is important - not one or the other, but both.
And the equipment choice should take into account rider + skill + route + speed + etc. etc. etc. Some folks ride a long long way with a tiny seat pack and stuffed jersey pockets... others want a kitchen sink and toothbrush (on a 200k!) - so its a balance of all these competing needs.

Bacciagalupe

True, but that does not alter the fact that certain specific design aspects will work best for most randonneurs. Hence it still makes sense to indicate there is a category of bikes we can call "randonneuring" or "audax" bikes, and riders can freely deviate from those as it suits them.



RAAM is a highly competitive event, and its riders are both more fit and (I presume) more tolerant of pain and discomfort than most amateurs. They also do not necessarily select the most comfortable bikes, as they place more emphasis on time, efficiency and performance. It doesn't make much sense to compare the requirements of most amateurs -- even most PBP participants -- to a RAAM rider.

Homeyba

Stand around at the end of a 1200k and you'll see people in just as bad shape and they've only been on the bike for three days! Small problems get compounded as the distances add up. The RAAM guys/gals are racing but they aren't carrying a load of junk in their trunk either.



I think we agree, rider and bike are important. We could get into all the "crap" a large number of brevet riders carry but that's a whole other topic!

There is a lot of snobbery in the randoneuring community. If you're not on a Rivendale (or equivalent) with fenders, panniers, 30mm tires handlebar bag... you don't know what you're doing. It's a bunch of BS. If I can get off my bike after a 1200k and feel good enough to turn around and do it again I don't care what bike I'm on!

Homeyba

Sorry, comfort is the single most important factor. You'll never get to the finish if you aren't comfortable on the bike. Efficiency, performance and light weight are important factors but comfort is paramount. The vast majority of RAAM racers are amateurs. I can count on one hand the pro racers who've done RAAM (two, that I can think of). You don't make any money racing in RAAM or any other ultra distance race that I know of. I can tell you that from personal experience! In fact you'd probably be surprised by the number of RAAM racers who came out of brevet series.

Homeyba

I should clarify one thing here. If you think fenders, big tires, panniers or handlebar bags are important factors for the bike you want to ride on a brevet there is nothing wrong with that! Go for it! Just make sure the bike fits you. For you, that is a "randoneuring bike," awesome! Just don't bag on the guy who thinks an uber-light carbon wonder is his/her "randoneuring bike." If it gets you there it's a randoneuring bike.

unterhausen

That's gotta be a regional thing. I've seen reports from Americans at PBP that got a response of "wtf are you riding?" from Europeans. The last 2 brevets I have ridden were dominated by racing style bikes. Granted, the bikes had larger bags than a racer would use. I'm a little conflicted about putting fenders on my next rando bike. Rain has never bothered me much unless it's below 40F.

I think as time goes on, there probably will be more diversity in the style of bikes available in carbon. You can do anything you want with it, it doesn't have to be a lightweight racing geometry.

Homeyba

You've got a good point there. It could be a regional thing. I've run into snobbery in the US on more than one occasion. Usually in the NW. Maybe they(from the NW) have run into it in SoCal because they are carrying all those bags, fenders and stuff in 100degree heat? In Europe though? I haven't run into it but they are people just like we are so why not?

thebulls

One of the most beautiful sights at PBP was the bike room in my hotel (see attached photo). Now, you gotta figure that with all of the time and effort that people put into PBP, that the bike they bring is as close as they can get to their idea of the "perfect randonneuring bike". What is awesome is how much variation there is in "perfection"!

For me, as close to "perfection" as I've gotten is a Gunnar Sport steel bike with S&S couplers, Waterford fork, 700x30 Grand Bois tires, fenders, Schmidt hub and Cyo light, Carradice saddlebag and Lone Peak handlebar bag.

I know there are CF bikes that might fit the bill for my rando needs and that would potentially be a few pounds lighter than my current setup (3 pounds? if I maintain my other equipment but replace 7 pounds of steel with 4 pounds of CF?). But they are well outside my price range right now. Maybe someday I'll go for a ride on a CF bike, but for now I'm trying to avoid ever swinging my leg over something I know I can't have :-) (Can you get a coupled CF bike?)

One thing I have wondered is whether the vibration damping of a CF frame makes it so that the combo of CF with a 700x25 tire (do those fit with fenders?) is the equivalent of my steel frame with 700x30 tire? In other words, is the restriction to a smaller tire size on a CF frame really a binding restriction?

(By the way, none of the bikes in the photo is mine.)

Nick

The Octopus 

I've largely stayed out of this this thread because Homeyba has been carrying all of the water for me. I'd swear, he and I were separated at birth. But I wanted to chime in to show some support and add an "amen" to the thoughts and ideas he's brought to this thread.

I've been randonneuring on an all-carbon "racing bike" since '05, including four full series and four 1200s, several fleches... hundreds of centuries, scores of doubles and a bunch of ultra races, too all ridden on that bike, set up exactly the same way -- geometry and tires -- as I set it up when I race a criterium. No problems. Nothing sore. Nothing aches. The bike hasn't turned into pixie dust.... It's a LD/randonneuring bike. It works for me. I have a ton of fun on it. I've also ridden all over the country (and in France) on that bike. Brevets on both coasts, in the north, in the south, in the 33F rain, in 100F heat... and even in the snow and ice on 23C tires. No fenders, ever.

I think there is some snobbery and elitism in the American randonneuring community. There's one guy who openly laughed at me and my bike and told me that I didn't know what I was doing as we awaited the start of a 1200K. He had the "traditional," beautiful lugged-steel very heavy bike with leather bags, leather saddle... you know, the bike that "specifically designed for randonneuring." Not terribly welcoming.

This idea that some bikes are more appropriate for long rides than others.... Folks, that kind of thinking really only exists on this side of the pond. Ride throughout the US, especially do some 1200s and take a trip to ride in Europe and you'll see a whole 'nother approach to this sport. It's awfuly tough to opine on what's "normal" or "standard" randonneuring equipment -- bikes, tires, lights, anything.... There is no standard if you pull the lens back and look at the whole global community. Even the generator lights that so many in the US speak of with religious zeal... you won't see many of the French or Italians using them. Want to tell the founders of the sport that they're doing it wrong? Good luck. Even in the Germans -- that hub is a German product -- seem to prefer battery-powered lights, at least at PBP.

Anyway... Just my $.02. I can't say it any better than Homeyba in post #34 -- right on!

Homeyba

It's awesome to walk around and take in all the different machines! I remember riding with a group of Italians during the day and they wouldn't let me near the front to take a pull (I don't blame them as they didn't know who I was) until it got dark. My light was about 20times brighter than any of theirs. In fact two of them had flashlights taped to their forks! Anyway after dark they started waving me to the front and suddenly I was their best friend! I think I rode on the front for most of that night.

Yes, I'm pretty positive that Calfee will couple their CF bikes. Now there is a nice CF bike! He can make it with big tires, fender/rack mounts or anything else your heart desires.

CF does dampen vibration in certain frequencies better than other frame materials but it's very subtle and you really won't notice a big difference until you start to pile up the miles, ie 100+. I run 23's on my bike and it's got a very nice ride.

wirehead

I'm kinda concerned about things from my angle. I am working my way towards being a randonneur from just a long-distance cyclist.

But, while I'm not a fan of carbon fiber, I'm also not a fan of "traditional". And I keep getting the vague feeling that the ground between non-retro-traditional and lightweight-carbon-fiber-traditional is just as rocky.

Homeyba

Thanks for the support. I bet we've crossed paths a few times? What brevet series do you usually do?

I had someone say something similar about my bike before the Cascade 1200k. He didn't realize I was standing there. He did apologized later so I really can't complain too much. 99% of randoneurs are the nicest people you could meet but no matter where you are there is always that 1%.

jemsurvey

Thanks for all the responses....its been good seeing the debate and helpful.

The Octopus 

Ohio was home until recently. I've also done brevets with the Oregon Randonneurs, St Louis, North Carolina, Kentucky, ROMA, RMBC, DC Randonneurs.... Was just in your neck of the woods (well, its closer than the mid-west!) for the GRR in July....

Amen. Most folks are awesome and very supportive or each other, and are especially helpful and encouraging of newcomers. For anyone reading this thread, definitely don't take my moaning about snobbery or elitism the wrong way. Randonneurs are a great community that I'm proud to be a part of -- everyone is welcome and encouraged to come join us. There are always a few jerks out there in any pursuit. And every discipline has its zealots and self-appointed purists and keepers of all things orthodox... randonneuring is no different.

reversegear

Welcome to the Rando club. The overwhelming majority of randonneurs could not care less what you are riding. Ride what works for you.

As thebulls pointed out in an earlier post there is a very wide range of "perfect randonneruring bikes" at PBP. Frankly that one of the most wonderful things about randonneuring. I really enjoy looking at all the different kinds of bikes that show up at brevets. It would be a horrible shame if we were all forced to ride the same bike.

Homeyba

Ditto's to what reversegear said. You will get a lot of opinions as to what works and doesn't but they are nearly always given in a positive (or at least trying to be helpful) manor. Your job is to take what you think will work for what you want to do and leave the rest. With a little trial and error you'll end up with a randoneuring package that works for you.

Homeyba

The GRR is a great ride isn't it? At least you had good weather this year. When Reversgear and I did it (the previous rendition) it was blazingly hot!

mattm

Damn that's sad, I hope it wasn't someone from Seattle Rando!

Homeyba

I'd rather not say. He did apologize later. Sometimes people say things they regret, I'll leave it at that.