seenloitering

+1

It's like: why are so many people at PBP? Because so many people are at PBP!

I do think Richard's sense of LD cycling is grounded in a real decline. I think it might be partially the result of a shift away from competition. For example, most of the people I know who "randonnuer", have never even attended an Audax sanctioned event, much less a competitive event - they think of it as too formal, even though it is technically non-competitive. To get these people out, you need higher attendance. There needs to be a bit of spectacle about the whole thing. Like PBP, it has to be an experience.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but the Audax club in my neighborhood is good and bad in the same sense. My club will host 24 brevets in a given year, one fleche, and a bunch of populaire's (less than 200km events) - and I live in Canada where these are all in a seven month period. This is great because no matter your schedule, you have plenty of opportunity to qualify for PBP or plenty of opportunity to squeeze in lots of brevets. It's great for the hardcores. It's not so great for building the sport and attracting new members. The result of having so many events is that they are all sparsely attended. There were only two other people in the first brevet I ever attended. If there was only one 200km brevet this year, probably nearly a hundred people would attend. At that point new people start attending just because so many other people are.

So, how to have the best of both worlds?

My proposal. There is never a lot of promotion for LD events, but most of the existing attention seems to go into the 1200km events - which are not very accessible. I think local clubs should do the opposite and pick a single 200km (or maybe overlapping 200, 300, 400) event to promote every year (buy yeah, still run all the smaller brevets for the hardcores). Push everyone in the club to show up for it. Tell them to talk their friends into it. Throw up a web page. Try to get it on local television. Start from an easily accessible location. Have manned control points; turn it into a slightly more supported event. Sell t-shirts. Turn it into a spectacle, an experience. Make it more than just another chance to clock in some miles.

surreycrv 

SL, what part of Canada? I recently joined the BC club. After riding the Victoria & Pacific populaires, my first 200km had 52 starters. The cluster**** of the pacific pop was gladly missing from this event. I managed to make the first control with another rider after the first speed group cleared, and before the second pack arrived. The control volunteer mentioned as we approached that this was a randonneuer event, not a race. Sure there is some competition involved, but its personal. As I waited for the volunteer to sign my card, a just arrived rider pushed his way to the vehicle to "jump the queue" so to speak.

If the need for more and more participants, to attract more and more participants, pushes the events to a kicking and scratching between competitors, then those should be directed to a race event. Let them jostle and fight on the course instead of enjoying the camaraderie of the event.

One thing I have learned from the internet, very few clubs award pins on the ride completion. That in itself is a major point for the bc club. They had such an enormous turnout for the Pacific Populaire, the late finishers had to wait for a pin to be mailed.

Rowan

One of the things that happened here with Audax Australia was the creation of shorter length, populaire-style events on the premise that they would attract additional riders into the sport.

Unfortunately, from my perspective, these events, unless combined with 200+ km events, tend to dilute the organising pool, and so we end up with longer events either being organised at a lesser attention to detail, being organised by people who are not receiving any additional support and then burn out, or not at all.

It's worth noting that the people who do up to 100km populaire-style events rarely go on to participate in the longer events and the full SR series and BRM events.

I am not sure that randonnees need a surge of interest. It is a very esoteric form of cycling that appeals to a certain, older, more-mature segment of the bicycling population because of its requirement for organisational ability, acquisition of specialised equipment, endurance fitness development and extended periods in the saddle.

I always found it entertaining that the 200km randonnees attracted the roadies in vast numbers, but after that, the numbers decreased rapidly to the relatively few committed riders in the 600s. To me, the roadies really are white noise in the overall context of LD events, and I try to tune them out of my zone.

And yes, we've come across the rude, ambitious moronic roadie who just doesn't have a clue about the reasons why we and others are in an event. And that in itself is a danger to the fabric of the sport. It is well known that some clubs with a proliferation of roadies have lobbied to increase the average speed of 200-600 randonnees well above the current 15km/h.

I also have to question the attraction of larger events. Even PBP is losing its appeal for me because of the vast numbers of riders now permitted. I don't like riding in large packs, and the dangers were confirmed with PBP 2007 when people crashed off their bikes within 10km of the start.

For me there is a different, more intimate cameraderie involved in events such as the Last Chance and Great Southern we did finish, or the BMB we didn't complete. There also is something special to be one of few on the "honour board" of finishers of a tough event such as the Giro Tasmania 1000, too. And the same goes for the two 24H Mid-West Ultra TTs that we participated in.

My time in sports and recreation administration showed that there is a cycle in activity. There is a building phase, a maturity phase, and a decline phase. How long the phases take depends on the will and interest of the public at the time. Aerobics is a prime example or a relatively rapid development and maturity phase, and an equally rapid decline. Here in Australia, basketball has done the same. Cycling, in all its forms, is probably mid-cycle and helped by the rising price of fuel. But it will decline again, and so will the participation rates in LD events.

The question about polarisation of LD events in California is an interesting one. Maybe the climate has a lot to do with it, and the resulting proliferation of riders and organisers attracted to the region.

By the way, surreycrv, Machka and I were talking about those pins the day before yesterday. She regards the one she received after a 200 several years ago as much, much more special than any drink bottle or T-shirt she's got on any other event, mainly because of the versatility in how it can be displayed with pride... and how it's a mark of achievement on what was a horrendous event for her.

RogerB

^This. I am 44 with a non-cycling Wife and 4 kids, and I don't really foresee having enough training time for at least another decade. I know a guy who is about my age, re-married to a female cyclist, and kidless. They did PBP last year. (I wouldn't trade, though.)

I'm glad to see more events cropping up in the US.

Homeyba

You're just not doing it right! When I first started doing brevets my son was pretty small. Sure the events are on weekends but there are only 4 qualifiers. That's only 4 weekends a year and 3 of those four rides are one day events. All four of them can be if you're fast enough. I just told my wife that if I can do these qualifiers the family would get a vacation in Europe, Canada or wherever the next summers 1200k was. She was all over that. Training was pretty easy too. First of all, you don't need nearly as many training miles as some people think you do. Second, you schedule your training around family events/time. Ride to the kids soccer games, and to family reunions. I used to get up at 4:30am three days a week and do a training ride before work. I also commuted to work on occasion and would use those times to train. It can be done, you just have to think outside the box a little.

lonesomesteve

Gotta agree with Homeyba. I'm an old guy (51) but I still have two kids at home and a wife who thinks riding more than 10 miles at a time is silly. It doesn't mean I can't be a long distance cyclist. It just means I have to be efficient about my riding time. About 60% of my riding is my daily commute, which doesn't take much longer by bike than it would be car or bus. My weekend training rides often start before the sun comes up so I can be home not long after the wife and kids wake up. Roughly once a month during the summer I'm gone all day for a brevet (two days for the 600k), but my family is ok with that. That's certainly no worse than if my hobby was golf or bowling. This summer the whole family is going to France for PBP, and they're thrilled.

Mike S.

No.

When organized ultras are not obvious,
long distance riders just ride alone and it goes un-noticed.

k7baixo

I think I'm both blessed and lucky. I'll be fifty (something) on Friday, married and one kid in college. My wife doesn't cycle but supports my hobbies 100%. I can't qualify for PBP this year but I will go to Ragbrai with my buddy. In the fall, I'll do my first 200-km brevet and then I'll attempt the full series next year.

If everything goes well - and I see no reason not to be optimistic - I'll participate in the 2015 PBP with a ton of experience under my belt as I close in on 60.

unterhausen

I've been wondering how the quota on riders in PBP will affect RUSA membership. If you look at the stats from 2007, there was a huge peak in the participation for the qualifying rides. If our club is any indicator, this might not happen this year. My theory is that people are afraid they will not be able to qualify even if they do a SR series. Granted, very few of those riders seem to have stuck around after PBP.

StephenH

Me: "Hey, want to go to Florida?"
Wife: "Not if it involves bikes."
So that's how Sebring went.

robertkat

Very true. 75% of my LD riding is on my own. One of the guys from my local group did 10,000 km in permanents last year, mostly on his own. Most of us didn't know until we got the results book.

RogerB

I hear you. I do the "Dark:30" training rides, or the commutes whenever I can. I cram in intervals to maximize the saddle time I manage to get.

But, it's not enough (based on my century last summer), and I still need to get sleep. Getting up is no problem, but evenings are not "free." I usually can't get to bed at 9 since I'm the only one in the house who's on that schedule. I have kids from age 7 to 15 and a Wife I'd like to actually talk to in a day.

Things might get easier before a whole decade passes. I might get my oldest involved with me. He runs cross-country and enjoys endurance sports. I might find more time as the kids get a bit older (but I've been saying that since they were in diapers.)

I'm not discouraged. I'm just putting it "out there" to be realistic. If I get there sooner, all the better.

vik 

I've got none of the reasons you do for my lack of training other than I hate training. I like riding my bike and I like events, but riding my bike today in a specific way/distance because of an event in a month rarely motivates me. I have the most luck when riding I want to do happens to be good training for other riding I want to do at a later date. Like a winter bike tour might be good for getting some base miles in the legs for spring events.

In any case the time limits for a lot of events are generous as long as you aren't fixed on a specific time vs. enjoying the ride and finishing.

Machka 

I started riding centuries in 1994, and my first few were solo. I didn't even know there were organised centuries until I started racing in 1998. Of all the long rides I've done, I'd say that at least 75% of them, perhaps even 80% or 85%, were solo or with one friend or family member. Long distance riding is indeed often a solitary pursuit that goes unnoticed.

Homeyba

That's because you're from the Great White North where the nearest igloo is miles away.

ConstantRider

The San Francisco Randonneurs have been getting record numbers of riders for the brevets this season. For example, there are 75 people signed up for next week's 600k. In comparison, 25 completed that ride in 2007. (Those were just the finishers though. Not sure how many DNS/DNFs there were.)

On the 200K this year, there were over 150 people who did it. PBP is part of the reason for the larger numbers, but only part. Each year since 2007, it seems like the number of people doing all the rides has gone up, and especially the 200ks. I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact the SF Randonneurs set up a pretty comprehensive website and Google Groups list, so people looking for info about organized rides in the Bay Area, or even just cycling info in general in the Bay Area, discover randonneuring and brevets.

StephenH

Something I would be curious about is whether randonneuring raises or lowers interest in non-randonneuring double centuries, 24-hour races and the like. On the one hand, it gets more people riding longer distances. But it also causes competing events. Is the net effect a boost or a drag?

Homeyba

In the last thirteen years California has gone from having one RBA in Davis to (I think) seven now. We went from nine doubles to twenty two. Interestingly, even though the number of doubles has grown the number of people doing three or more has been pretty stagnant for the last five years or so.
Are they related? Good question. I don't know. You do see a lot of the same faces but gennerally people who do brevets do doubles but not always visa versa.

skiffrun

Reminds me of a saying (derived from "if a tree falls in a forest ...") we used to have, back when I was a runner:

"If there is no T-shirt, was there a race?"

Machka 

I went from doing solo and then organised centuries into randonneuring. And where I lived there were no organised double centuries, so I just did my own ... solo ... in preparation for longer randonneuring events. But it was through randonneuring that I heard about 24-hour races and decided to try my first one in 2005.

It was a progression for me. Once I had done quite a few centuries, I wanted another challenge and took up randonneuring. After I'd been involved in randonneuring a while, I wanted another challenge and did a couple 24-hour races.

In 2005 and 2006, Rowan and did both randonneuring and the UMCA 24-hour race. Randonneuring and the 24-hour races weren't competing events for us, they were complimentary events.

And I discovered that I actually prefer the 24-hour events to randonneuring. I wish there were 24-hour races here in Australia.

Machka 

Just out of curiosity, I thought I'd do the calculation ...

I've done 151 rides of 100 miles or more (all the way up to 1200Ks). If I'm counting them correctly, I've actually done 40 rides with more than one person, at least at the start. That's more than I thought! So that's 26.5% with more than one person, and 73.5% either solo or with just one other person.

However that's a little deceptive because, for example, in those 40 rides I've included the seven 200K and 300K distances Rowan and I have done since I got here. On all those rides, we started with a decent sized group of people but were dropped within a few minutes. We might have encountered a few other cyclists occasionally in the first third or so of the ride, but after that we were completely on our own. So do I count those in the "more than one other person" or "just one other person" group?


Anyway, I think that's part of the appeal of the 24-hour races for me. Because I do so many rides solo or with one other person ... and because I'm usually dropped by the group on randonnees (I'm even one of the few I know of who rode solo, with no other cyclists in sight, on the PBP!!) ... it was really nice to do an event where there were all sorts of cyclists around almost all the time for a change. Kind of a novelty.

FunkyStickman

I can definitely identify with not having time to train. I'm 37 and have 4 kids at home, and when I'm not at work, I'm expected to be at home, helping out. I'm also wanting to get into randonneuring, but man, it just ain't flying with the wife. For now, I'm plannnig on sticking to 200K's and group rides on the weekend. Maybe when the kids are older and I'm not needed at home as much, but for now, it's really not an option.

My conversations go something like this (talking to the wife about doing my first 200K
"I want to go to New Orleans and do a long bike ride. They leave at 2:00 PM and get back late."
"You'll be back before bedtime, right? 9:00?"
"Uhhh.... (silence)"

unterhausen

when I posted, the 400k this weekend was under-subscribed. That has changed. I predicted that everyone that wanted to ride PBP was going to be able to do so, and I hope that's true and that the new rules didn't scare anyone away. The person that has been looking at the numbers predicts that 50 people that didn't ride any ACP brevets last year will be able to go. I don't know if that's a normal number or not.

thebulls

The average age of PBP-bound RUSA riders who have signed up so far this year is 50.5. So you've got 13 years to go until you even reach that average age. Plenty of time for the kids to grow up enough for you to be able to take the kind of time that a rando lifestyle takes.

RogerB

When you say "rando lifestyle" in mixed company, I wonder what most of them are thinking?