gyorpb

Who says slower riders aren't experienced?

.tsooJ

Homeyba

Are you talking about some kind of "handicapped" or bracket race or more of a randonee type of event where there is a staggered start and everyone finishes around the same time?

The Octopus 

I don't know. Who did say that? Please, tell us. There isn't any fair reading of anything I wrote that would even remotely suggest that.

robertkat

I agree that randonneuring should not be used to define the LD aspect of cycling. Yet many people appear to be attempting to redefine randonneuring to fit their idea of LD cycling. If endurance racers want to participate in brevets, that is fine. I know a few who do, and thoroughly enjoy them as well as make them into an excellent form of training. However, when these people advocate for higher average speeds and such for brevets, they are then attempting to change something to fit their own needs. Also, consider that randonneuring, outside of local organised centuries, is the often times the only real outlet for long distance events for people who do not care to race. Outside of endurance racing and all out touring, randonneuring is the long distance scene.

Also, permanents. You really don't understand them? Think of it this way: many of us like to have a goal, have our achievements recognised, and like to challenged ourselves. So what if there are no permanents? Now, what do you do if your local rando group only does one series a year, that is, 4 events at the beginning of the year. And that's it. So every year you do a series. So all you can ever hope for is 1500 km in ACP/RUSA/etc certified milage. Permanents are a wonderful way for people to have options, find new challenging, established routes, and get credit for the mileage. It gets us out on the road with a goal.

Also, if randos weren't quirky, we wouldn't survive. I highly doubt there is any one person on this planet that has been out on a 600 km brevet, riding all alone through the darkest night in the rain, that hasn't passed the time making up songs about the route they are on.

gyorpb

You're not the only person posting on this site..tsooJ

Richard Cranium

Yes exactly. In general this is the way it works, however I realize the at some point veteran riders slow down, myself included. And of some note, I have ridden with and "helped" quite a few veteran riders finish brevets who have slowed in pace due to aging.

But instead of attacking or fixating on a generality - why not grasp the concept? The concept is to promote sense of shared group riding through even handed neutral support for a portion of ride. And then as the ride nears its completion address the needs of those who wish to test their competitive abilities by opening the controls at periods that allow for higher and higher speeds.

The concept is simply - all entrants get treated equally well through out the ride, and to manage that - the group is restricted to ride speeds that can be supported efficiently.

No staggered start - part of the goal of control restriction is increase chances for drafting and group riding. I think the saddest part about long distance cycling in the US is the ignorance of the benefits of riding in groups where riders support each other instead of attacking constantly.

Homeyba

Sounds like you are almost talking about a fleche. They are very popular in Europe.

skiffrun

pot ... kettle

skiffrun

I was thinking RC's explanation sounded more like "audax" rather than "libre".
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I have yet to understand what "Gran Fondo" actually means.
Don't do organized rides any more (except for brevets), so I'll probably never really figure it out.
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Almost all of the above is written about the "rando world".
My experience was that the "organized charity ride world" suffers the same problems.
(I used to Bike Marshal at a an MS-150 ... saw lots of things.)

In my opinion, the worst though, are the local cycling clubs with weekly or quarterly rides that segregate riders by distance and speed. By which I mean, e.g., 15 mph riders are only allowed to do the 40-mile ride, you have to be at least an 18-mph rider to do the 75-mile ride. Penalty ... no food at the end ... regardless of how much you paid in advance for it.

unterhausen

when I was a club president, we had the slow riders whining about the faster riders being ... faster. Or at least that's what I got out of it. The thing about group riding is that you occasionally have to make an effort to close a gap. If you aren't the kind of person to do that, you aren't going to be riding in any group long. My first year of randonneuring, I would really work hard to stay in the group. Last year I was too out of shape to do that, and I realized that I don't always enjoy riding in groups. I probably should start working harder.

Homeyba

When I was in Europe doing group rides they had a rather interesting way of keeping the groups together. On the hills where the groups tend to break up the faster riders would slow down, put their hand on the slower riders back and "assist" them up the hills. It gave the faster riders a great work out and it helped the slower riders learn to climb at a faster tempo. I've done that on many a brevet where I'm riding with riders who are struggling. I'm not sure why you don't see that much here in the states.

Richard Cranium

Well - yes to some extent the event I would like invent is a Grand Fleche, except beyond the second half of the event control openings would allow for riders that still had the ability to move forward at great pace. And eventually with the finishing controls opening so quickly that a cyclist could "race in" without fear of arriving before the control opens.

The so-called benefits are simple.
1 - The ride is easily supportable for at least the first half -because the group is constrained by control timings.
2 - The change of control timings allows for riders to "go it alone" and try as hard as they want near the end.
3 - The whole process is good for long distance cycling by creating a "group atmosphere" for at least part of the ride. And the reality is, even expert riders can benefit by taking it easy for the first 100k and then gradually increasing their efforts. Experts riders often hurt themselves - just like beginners by starting too quickly.

Unfortunately staggered starts only address part of the control problems, they do nothing to promote group long distance riding.

FunkyStickman

One of the reasons I'm interested in getting involved in Rando is because it does not cater specifically to faster riders. Everybody who finishes gets credit, and the time limits are lax enough that I can still make it on a touring bike... my only bike.

The local MS150 ride gets hammered by the local "Cat 6" race teams every year. They finish the first day in under 4 hours, I finish in about 7. When I get to the park, most of them have eaten, packed up their stuff, and headed to the hotel already. Other than the start, I don't even get to see them. I guess what bothers me the most about them is that they simply do not care about any kind of riding other than fast. Even on local group rides, they simply don't care for anything other than "as fast as possible" which does not interest me whatsoever.

I hope Rando does not morph into something catering to faster riders... I will never be one of them, nor do I want to be.

Homeyba

I'm not sure what you expect them to do? Do you want them to sit there and wait for three hours just for you? Would you do that for someone who finished in 10hrs? Do you expect them to ride your pace? Are you willing to ride the pace of someone taking 10hrs? When you do longer brevets that three hours will become 10hrs or a full day or more. Will you have the same expectations?

Hairy Hands

Homeyba. I'm in Bakersfield today. Am I close?

Homeyba

Kind of. You are about 90 miles east of me.

FunkyStickman

If I was hosting a ride, and I set a time limit at x hours, then yes, I would expect somebody to ride sweep for slower or more inexperienced riders (unless the slower rider was very experienced, and could be trusted to ride behind). If you were into doing brevets, and everybody else there was several hours faster than you, then what would be the point of even doing it with a group? Why not just go out on your own, and do the whole thing yourself? Why even have RUSA if there is no rider-to-rider interaction and support? Where is the cooperation, the mentoring, the learning? If you don't at least somewhat cater to slower riders, you're essentially saying "good luck, you're on your own" and leaving them to fate. And if Rando isn't a race, then what is the rush? Isn't the mentoring more important than racking up miles?

I have no problem letting the racers hammer a charity ride, I am merely illustrating a point... the reality is that some riders (quite a few) tend to turn every ride into a race. I have no desire to do such. If an event's administration sets a time limit, then they need to be prepared to host people who will take the whole time limit, otherwise they are excluding people who are doing nothing wrong. Charity rides are usually good about this, and they don't start up the festivities until the last rider is in.

So what happens when the endurance racer mentality permeates the Rando world? You get riders who are focused on a self-imposed time limit, rather than looking out for each other. When you are shooting for a specific time at the expense of promoting the sport or helping someone, then it is dangerously close to becoming a 1-person race.

When we do local group rides, I always always ride with the newest (and usually slowest) riders. I check with them, I give them tips, I make sure they hydrate, and I generally push them gently further than they think they can go... all with the expectation that they will enjoy the experience, feel good about accomplishing something, and be willing to come back next time. I am willing to put aside my personal wants for the better of the cycling community overall. Not trying to toot my horn, it's just the truth. It is an attitude that is sorely lacking in most everything today, and it's just maddening to me that it is manifesting itself in cycling. It's not even the speed that bothers me... it's the attitude of "I can't be bothered to talk to you, help you, or give you advice, you're on your own" that I have issues with.

There will always be people who disagree with this, but the truth is, friendships are more important to me than getting brevet medals. I'm really looking for like-minded riders, people who enjoy the simple act of riding, like I do. In a charity ride, there's enough people that I'm bound to find others like me. But on brevets, without the mentoring, fellowship, and community, then why even bother? Once you've proven you can do a brevet unsupported, what's the point? (I expect actual answers, I'm not just saying this to incite a riot)

The Octopus 

1. I'm not sure I follow RC's proposal. Most of the "problems" with the control opening times for the fastest randonneurs are usually in the first few controls (and only then for the very fastest of folks traveling over nearly flat courses). As the ride gets longer, the opening times are no longer an issue for most. I understand PBP has no opening times for the 80h group (is this still true? I think it used to be), but even then, the fastest riders would be behind the opening times of the last few controls using the method of opening time calculation found here https://www.rusa.org/octime_alg.html.

2. I've been hearing tales of these so-called "fast riders" lobbying for reduced time limits. I've heard this rumor on the internet for years. Alright, people. Proof time. I've never actually seen anyone, ever, anywhere provide a cite or a link or any evidence that this is, in fact, happening. Put up your evidence. Either that, or stop the nonsense. (And, "so-and-so in my local club says this" isn't anything. That's crap. That's what some guy in a club thinks. I want evidence that there's some organized, concerted effort by "fast riders" to have the ACP reduce the maximum allotted times for brevets. Or, I want people to stop trotting out this straw-man argument.)

3. On the idea of staggered starts: A club I used to ride with would do this, and it was the slower folks who hated it. It did accomplish the goal of getting everyone done at roughly the same time, which meant you got to have pizza and beer with your slower friends, for those who went in for that sort of thing. It also meant, though, that at some point toward the end of the ride, the faster riders would be overtaking the slower riders, and event that regularly led to all kinds of ruffled feathers and hurt feelings and accusations that people were showing off -- all the same whining and b.s. that already pervades this thread.

unterhausen

On your second point, max speed was the issue that led to the formation of the ACP. I agree that I haven't seen anyone lobbying for faster times though. And Jan Heine has gotten a certain amount of flack for his R60/R70/R80 awards. But that seems a little silly to me.

Being among the first finishers on a century can be its own punishment. I've sat around waiting for hours for my ride. One time I bonked so bad at the end of a century that I slept by the side of the road for an hour, got up, rode my bike the last mile to the finish, and waited for my ride for another couple of hours. If I had any food it would have been faster to ride home. Luckily (?) that's unlikely to happen to me again.

Homeyba

Don't forget that Randonneuring is long-distance unsupported endurance cycling. The support provided varies greatly from event to event. From non-existent to over the top. There is no catering to slower or faster riders. There are just closing times and sometimes but not always opening times at the controls that are actually quite generous. When there are opening times really fast riders can and often do end up waiting for the control to open. On any given 1200k you're going to have riders finishing anywhere from sub 50hrs to 90hrs and everything in-between.

If you are fast enough to ride with slower riders you will probably have at least a small group to ride with. I've done that many times myself. From my experience, the groups tend to be very nebulous with riders coming and going all through the event especially on 1200ks. The fact is that people ride at speeds that are comfortable for them and they tend to have widely varying speeds. Some single riders will have widely varying speeds in just one event. Just as an example, I've done 600ks in 23hrs and in 40hrs and I wasn't racing any of them! It just depends on my mood, conditioning etc.

Just because a rider is fast doesn't mean that they are racing these events. They're just faster than us. The only real "racing" on a brevet that I've seen was at PBP in 2003. Sure many riders ride these events trying for personal bests or to push themselves but they really aren't racing anyone but themselves. Is the guy who's PB is 50hrs for a 1200k any different than another who's PB is 90hrs and should we penalize the 50hr guy just because he has more talent or trained harder than we did?

Homeyba

That's never happened to me, nope...not me...

FunkyStickman

I definitely don't want to suggest that you can't be a fast rider, but as I said, it's more about the attitude than speed. I've known fast guys who were very vocal about helping people, quick to point out things, and just were generally good stewards of the cycling community. Then there are others who aren't.

I sort of feel like I'm superimposing the local club ride's problems onto this, when it really doesn't apply... the rando group here in N.O. seems to be very laid back, and they are not worried about times, as long as you show up and ride, they're good. This is why it's appealing to me. I want to get away from the "faster is better" mentality, and just enjoy riding at my own pace, but with other people who think the same way. Not just ride the same speed, but ride with the same mindset.

Can you be a fast rando rider? Sure. I just don't see the point in doing it myself. The question is, does that make me any more or less a randonneur than someone else? And if speed isn't a requirement of the sport, why is it even an issue? It's like racism... the more you talk about lack of equality, the more you bring it into the spotlight.

unterhausen

I figure that as long as someone doesn't Cinzano me, everything's great. It seems to me that on any long ride, there is some finite chance that any of the starters might DNF. On the 1200k that went through here, the fastest rider was 8 hours ahead of everyone else at the second overnight stop. And that was only because he bonked because none of the food stores were open when he got there, otherwise he would have been much further ahead. He ended up being one of the last finishers. At the end he had Shermer's neck and he was walking up hills because his crank failed.

RogerB

I am a slow rider, but I wish I were fast. I will ride my own ride. Please don't ride slow or sacrifice your goals (if you're a fast rider) for mine. I don't mind a little chit-chat, but I wouldn't feel right about holding you back.

MagicJade

Being fast or slow is rather relative term and you can be on both sides with the same speed you ride. I came back to biking almost 2 years ago, when I bought a low level mountain bike. I made around 6000km on it within 1.5 year mostly on the paved roads. The average distance for that was around 42km and the average speed just a bit above 19km/hr. My longest distance on that bike was around 170km with the average speed on the level of 21.7km/hr. This winter I was ridding a bit, so when spring came, I saw a small increase in the average speed, which made me very happy. I month ago I participated in the rode marathon (in the "other type of bike" cathegory) and manage to finish 135km in not quite hilly area but still having over 1200m overall climb within 6.5hr from start to finish and around 6rs ride with the average on the level of 21.7. I was 19/22 in my age group loosing to number 18th almost an hour and 456/464 overall. The winner of the double distance (270) needed only 30min more than me to make double the distance! I had my own goals to achive, like every other participant and I did it. And I was very proud.

Two weeks after I participated in the 400km brevet, on my newly build CX bike. From the start I tried to keep my own, rather low speed. So very soon I was closing the ride. I met the top of the race 5km before the first control (10km overall distance) and was realy surprised, as I was expecting to see them much sonner. When I was on 170km, I met the same guys when they were on 280km. We met at the control point, where I was having longer break and they just passed. I had to gave up after 225km due to the knee and bottom pain, but was still happy to achieve my personal best in the distance.

So to summarize, in the marathon/brevet group, I am rather slow if not very slow. At the same time I encouraged an old friend of mine to jump on the bike. We did few short trips (over 20km) with rather relaxed speed (below 20km/hr) and I felt like just pre-heating, while my colleague was very tired. For him these were very fast and long rides. Like I said, fast/slow is rather relative term.

In the big group of riders, there will be as many ride goals as the number of participants, so you need to set your own one and be happy when achieving it and very happy when achieving more than expected.