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Furnace Creek 508 Entries

Old 03-05-13, 12:15 PM
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Furnace Creek 508 Entries

Hey, what's with the Furnace Creek applications? All last year it was stated that the applications were supposed to open on March 4. So on March 4 I check to see if the link is there, but I see that the applications open on March 5. So now I go back on March 5 and the link is still not there!

Yeah, I realize Kostman was busy with the Death Valley Double over the weekend. But it raises questions about the vaunted organization of this fixture! Hoodoo 500 is looking better and better...

Luis
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Old 03-05-13, 05:35 PM
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Ah, the link has finally appeared. Here goes!

L.
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Old 03-05-13, 05:46 PM
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Wonder if I should enter this year...been pondering doing it solo again.
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Old 03-08-13, 12:53 AM
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I'm curious. Just how hard is that thing to get into, in practice? I know that they are asking all sorts of questions about long-distance experience and about your plans to fundraise, but is that really critical or they end up admitting everyone anyway?
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Old 03-08-13, 01:58 AM
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My experience is that Kostman lets pretty much everyone in. He always talks about limiting entries but I don't know of him every denying anyone an entry. Could be wrong though.
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Old 03-08-13, 08:52 PM
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Cool. Maybe next year.

Another thing I'm curious about (and please don't take this as a criticism of Adventurecorps): since, as far as I understand, this thing is essentially self-crewed, what's the deal with the huge entry fee? I understand that they need to get a bunch of permits and possibly liability insurance, and they lease space in a hotel before the event, they have prizes, but does that really add up to $500+ per entrant?
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Old 03-08-13, 11:38 PM
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Those alligator skin boots don't pay for themselves. As long as people are willing to pony-up, he can charge what he wants.
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Old 03-13-13, 11:47 PM
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Putting on events of any sort takes a huge amount of time and energy, as well as expenses of permits, etc. You can easily pay $35-$50 to enter a race that will last an hour (for your little piece of it) and take place around a few city blocks. The 508 takes place across 508 miles of road and 48 hours through a lot of jurisdictions and requires permits and a ton of support vehicles (and fuel for them), plus things like food for officials, a standby ambulance or two (not cheap). He does try to keep excess vehicles and driving to a minimum, but there's still a lot of it. So that will all eat a bunch of the cost. And given the amount of time it takes to plan and organize, it's fair that he should get some income out of it. Having done it once and crewed once, I don't think the cost is at all out of line for the quality of the event.
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Old 03-13-13, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by hamster View Post
I'm curious. Just how hard is that thing to get into, in practice? I know that they are asking all sorts of questions about long-distance experience and about your plans to fundraise, but is that really critical or they end up admitting everyone anyway?
For team entry it looks like he lets pretty much everybody in. For individual entry I looked at the stats (before we did it as a team) and it looked like there was a decrease in the dropout rate once he started making you write an application. He might use that to filter out some people, or it might just be enough to make people self select and/or prepare a bit better.
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Old 03-14-13, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by bitingduck View Post
Putting on events of any sort takes a huge amount of time and energy, as well as expenses of permits, etc. ...
He's bringing in over $100,000 in just entry fees. It doesn't cost him anywhere near that much to put on the race. I've done it 10 times so I've donated more than my share.

As comparison the Hoo Doo 500 only charges $350 entry for the basically the same thing, that's $200 a person less. It is what it is. He's been trying to limit the entries for a long time and increasing the price is one way to do it. Interestingly it hasn't really limited entries much if at all. Apparently the market has no problem with the high entry price so Kostman makes out pretty good. Nothing against him, I'd probably do the same thing.

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Old 03-14-13, 01:32 PM
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The other thing to keep in mind is that with the requirement of a support vehicle, the overall cost of doing events like the 508 is pretty high, regardless, especially if you travel for it. So by that argument, a difference of $150 in entry fees between the two isn't necessarily enough by itself to make you do the Hoo Doo if you really want to do the 508. IIRC though, the Hoo Doo does have an unsupported category, which might potentially make for a much bigger price difference, if that's your bag.

I'd dearly love to go back and do the 508 again sometime, but it won't be this year.
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Old 03-14-13, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Coluber42 View Post
The other thing to keep in mind is that with the requirement of a support vehicle, the overall cost of doing events like the 508 is pretty high, regardless, especially if you travel for it. So by that argument, a difference of $150 in entry fees between the two isn't necessarily enough by itself to make you do the Hoo Doo if you really want to do the 508.....
Actually it's $200. The entry for the 508 is $550 (Solo) and $350 for the Hoo Doo. Don't know if that's enough of a savings but it is substantial all other costs being equal (remember gas in cheaper in Nevada )
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Old 03-14-13, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
He's bringing in over $100,000 in just entry fees. It doesn't cost him anywhere near that much to put on the race. I've done it 10 times so I've donated more than my share.
It doesn't cost near that much if you don't count labor as being worth anything, but having done a bunch of race promoting, it takes a lot of time and it's generally uncompensated. If he can make a decent living at it, good-- it means he'll keep putting on good events.

It typically costs $10K+ to put on a crit around here, and even a full day of local track racing (without even having to pay for the facility-- just things like officials and EMTs) can easily add up to $800 or so. And if you've ever been a USAC official, the pay is basically volunteer work. And with Ambulance added last year, that adds $$$. For a single basic life support ambulance on standby, $10K for the weekend (not including mileage to get to/from station) wouldn't be a surprise.
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Old 03-15-13, 10:19 AM
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I won't disagree that there are significant costs but it's pretty apparent that they aren't anywhere near what he's bringing in. Debbie at Planet Ultra is doing almost the exact same race with the same perks. The only difference is that the Hoo Doo goes through three different national parks (not one) and she's charging $200 less a person. Doing rides like this is how she makes a living. I really don't mean to be bagging on Chris. He's a very smart guy and he's done a lot for the sport. Personally I have more of a problem with what he did to the team event than his pricing.
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Old 03-15-13, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
Personally I have more of a problem with what he did to the team event than his pricing.
My own beef is the steel frame requirement for fixed gear. The frame material is nearly irrelevant to your time in a race that long if you're riding fixed, but it's much easier to find decent quality aluminum fixed frames at a reasonable cost these days than it is steel. And if you need a smaller frame (as my partner/teammate needs), it's *way* harder to get anything decent in steel. I raced a converted road frame that I borrowed from my neighbor (he'd already converted it) and she one year bought a cheap steel fuji that as a 44 cm bike with 650 wheels weighed more than the 56 that I was riding. That's just wrong. The next year (with a different teammate) she brought out her really old steel track bike and we swapped on a carbon fork so it was much more reasonable. Had she not bought her first track bike ~20 years ago though, she'd have been out of luck on a decent small steel frame without going custom.

edit: btw-- I own 3 track bikes and none was really suitable, which was why I borrowed a conversion. The closest was an old steel pinarello, but it would have required a fork swap, too, and isn't drilled for a rear brake at all. The other two are an aluminum S-Works Langster and a CF Giant...
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Old 03-15-13, 03:26 PM
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I did it on a conversion, a 1974 Raleigh Pro. It's the same bike I do all my long distance stuff on anyway, and it happens to be steel. I agree though, that that's a stupid requirement. Fixed is only a drivetrain, not a lifestyle or a philosophy or a religion or something.
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Old 03-15-13, 09:44 PM
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If I remember correctly Luis had a similar issue (or maybe it was wheels) with his fixie (?). Chris went through this "retro" kick a few years back and that steel frame rule came of that. Chris can be a little esoteric.
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Old 03-15-13, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Coluber42 View Post
Fixed is only a drivetrain, not a lifestyle or a philosophy or a religion or something.
I don't know if I'd go that far...

We did it fixed because when my GF was filling out the application she realized everything on my race resume was track (and no race longer than an hour...) and was worried he wouldn't let us in as a geared 2x. I've done plenty of long distance non-race, and mostly non-organized, because I've never been into racing long distance, or big organized rides.
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Old 03-15-13, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Homeyba View Post
If I remember correctly Luis had a similar issue (or maybe it was wheels) with his fixie (?). Chris went through this "retro" kick a few years back and that steel frame rule came of that. Chris can be a little esoteric.
Wheels wouldn't surprise me-- minimum 32 spokes, round, box rim no deeper than 25 mm...

Except the fork can be pixie dust, and we put a CF bottle cage on my GF's fuji the year I rode with her for the hipster irony.
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Old 03-19-13, 03:53 PM
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For fixed gear, I normally run 28-spoke front, 32-spoke rear with deep-section rims, so I've had to build a special set of 32-spoke low-profile wheels specifically for this event. What I find perplexing is the fixed gear division rule about not being able to switch wheels. So if you're on a geared bike and you puncture, you can get a quick wheel change. But on the fixie, even though you're paying for a mandatory support vehicle, you have to actually stop and replace the tube (and tire, just to make things faster)! The only way to get around this is to have identical wheels and to make sure that anytime you puncture, you also dent the rim or take out a few spokes at the same time! Only then are you allowed to change wheels! Sheesh! You're already likely to be taking longer to finish the race than anyone on a geared bike, but to add this extra time for punctures is pretty silly.

Just checking the rules: even in the Classic Bike category, there are no restrictions on wheel changes, as long as you use 32-spoke wheels! And at least you can use the same bike for L'Eroica!

For Hoodoo, you bet I'll be using the 28-front 32-rear combination, with spare wheels! But at least these two events even HAVE a fixed gear category, so I figure I should support them.

Luis
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Old 03-22-13, 10:46 AM
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OK, I'm in. Notification came only one day after it was scheduled to arrive (they appear to be one day behind their schedule on things). Just need to get the money and paperwork in. We're supposed to book hotels now, but although I'm inclined to stay at the host hotel in 29 Palms, I'm thinking about booking a cheaper motel at the start (I typically use hotwire). Any thoughts? I'll be dong this on the cheap anyway - two-person crew, a car instead of a van. I did my 1,000 km brevet nonstop a couple of years ago, so I pretty much know what to expect as far as logistics.

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Old 03-27-13, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lhbernhardt View Post
OK, I'm in. Notification came only one day after it was scheduled to arrive (they appear to be one day behind their schedule on things). Just need to get the money and paperwork in. We're supposed to book hotels now, but although I'm inclined to stay at the host hotel in 29 Palms, I'm thinking about booking a cheaper motel at the start (I typically use hotwire). Any thoughts? I'll be dong this on the cheap anyway - two-person crew, a car instead of a van. I did my 1,000 km brevet nonstop a couple of years ago, so I pretty much know what to expect as far as logistics.

Luis
there are a bunch of other hotels near both the start, since it's near magic mountain. We did a suite at the residence inn one year (nice, quiet), and two rooms at the Best Western Valencia last year (a lot of freeway noise). At the finish we've stayed at the Country Inn and Hotel 29 Palms (shared parking lot and reservation system). They're ok places, and cheaper than the Best Western, and only about a block away. I've also stayed at the Fairfield Inn across the street when I've been out there for other stuff, and it's nice, but not as cheap as the Country Inn/Hotel 29 Palms. I tend to over-reserve and cancel when it gets close.

For cars, both years I've ended up with minivans from Dollar. I do the same thing with overbooking cars-- I'll find something acceptable ASAP, and then keep shopping online. The price at dollar seems to hit a minimum at about 2 weeks before the event. Having a 3 person crew the second year was *way* easier on the crew than a two person crew, especially with a minivan where there's a little room to stretch out. We pretty much always had a fresh driver. With a two person crew they had completely lost the ability to do simple arithmetic ("how many miles to the next turn") by the middle of stage 8.

One of the best ways to save a lot of time at night is to carry a lot of water so the crew aren't refilling 5 gallon jugs in the middle of the night (takes a lot of time).
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Old 03-27-13, 02:42 PM
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I was amazed at how fast the hotels booked. Well, I've got a room at each end of the trip, anyway! Thanks for the info. Yes, I can see where it would be useful to minimize night-time stops.

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Old 04-16-13, 11:52 AM
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So now where is the FC508 roster? It was supposed to have been printed online on April 8, according to the original schedule. So far, it's not up yet, but I did notice that the April 8 date had been removed from the 508 schedule, and they have a note on one their web pages that "bureaucratic" schedules are subject to change, but that actual race dates are fixed. I would have expected more for the $550 entry fee! The check hasn't been cashed, so I have no idea if the entry papers went thru! And I don't have a web page for potential sponsors to verify that I'm on the start list. Plus he expects us all to be there all day on the Friday before the start? We'll still be driving in on the Friday morning, so we'll get there when we get there, but I think this is just bureaucratic stuff happening on the Friday anyway. I am becoming less impressed with Kostman and hearing more good things about Hoodoo, definitely in my plans for 2014!

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Old 06-16-13, 08:56 PM
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Yeah... Sometimes we poke around to see what's being said about the Hoodoo 500...
And yeah, we DO believe it's the best AND toughest of the 500-mile races in the USA. We just LOVE Southern Utah. And you will too.
So... as an additional incentive - from today until the end of June, use discount code bikeforums and take 10% off your entry for the Hoodoo 500 OR Hoodoo 300.
And for you team relay racer folks - the Hoodoo 500 entry fee for an all-inclusive 4-person team is only $960 (compared to $1700); and we think it's way more fun to make your own team strategy with unlimited racer exchanges and multiple crew vehicles.
Anyway, the other race is sold out now - so come join the fun in St. George, UT! Fuel is 50 cents a gallon cheaper here too! And the hotels are less expensive! And we have a great post-race banquet breakfast with awards and prizes. And did we mention the route is incredibly beautiful? And the road quality is superb?
http://www.hoodoo500.com
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