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Hambini vs Open UP frame

Old 07-20-20, 05:23 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
You clearly have not seen the video where Hambini talks about the tolerances of certain brands in relation to bottom brackets including Cannondale and Cervelo which surprise the open guys were a part of.
Are you aware that Hambini got into an argument (on Slowtwitch, IIRC) with a few people in the industry - including one of the former Cervelo founders - who disagreed with him? And are you aware of his proclivity to make up things when pushed into a corner?

It boggles my mind that people actually consider that clown a reliable source of facts.
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Old 07-20-20, 05:34 AM
  #27  
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Lucky to have a guy like Hambini watching the junk bike marketing companies. QC .... I'd guess work week end the **** sitting cluttering the facility gets boxes rather than finding a dumpster.

FUNNY thing is.. the flavor of knee pad types who defend this **** coming in the boxes.

Last edited by cb400bill; 07-20-20 at 08:25 AM. Reason: bypassing the censor is not allowed. Just spell out obscenities.
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Old 07-20-20, 11:08 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Aladin View Post
Lucky to have a guy like Hambini watching the junk bike marketing companies. QC .... I'd guess work week end the **** sitting cluttering the facility gets boxes rather than finding a dumpster. FUNNY thing is.. the flavor of knee pad types who defend this **** coming in the boxes.
Ok, Mrs Hambini, you can put on YOUR knee pads and take a turn now. Obviously, this is starting to bother you, to the degree that obscenties aside, you are unable to type a couple of coherent sentences.

(I am pretty sure this level of blind idol-worship - to the point where they start taking ad hominems at others for having a different opinion - is not something adults would do. So that only leaves the alternative above).
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Old 07-21-20, 08:40 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
That guy is such a dick that its funny at times.
Its a bit frustrating to me. As an engineer, I find that "personalities" like this normalize the behavior that being an expert with no people skills is okay. Every engineer has had a co-worker like this and they're frustrating as hell to work with. The engineers that impress the hell out of me are the ones that (a) know what they're talking about (b) can explain it to non-technical people and (c) can take criticism and/or critique and/or questions without getting upset or hurling insults. Hambini seems to have 2 out of 3, but without the 3rd you can't grow as an engineer (or as a person really).
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Old 07-21-20, 04:53 PM
  #30  
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Commentary on Hamboney aside, IF that is a legit frame from Open, why did the owner not take it back and file a claim with a dealer? A dealer would be the place to start a claim and to verify the problem and file a warranty issue with Open. Without that basic step the origins of this frame are rather questionable. That basic step NEVER HAPPENED, so who can say if that is a legit frame or a counterfeit in the first place? Why did the owner not start the whole process with a dealer?

If this happened to you, would you send one email to the manufacturer then ship your $3k frame off to Mr. H? Just about all of us would you go back the the dealer where it was purchased from so they can inspect and if necessary take measurements and file a proper warranty claim. Unless you bought it at half price, direct from China on ebay that is...

Last edited by dwmckee; 07-21-20 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 07-21-20, 07:41 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by fishboat View Post
Having had a fair bit of first hand experience in this area...the first thing it tells us is that the mfg likely doesn't grasp or fully embrace a robust statistical sampling program that would ID issues like this before they hit crisis-mode. The problem discussed here may well be a one-off, though it's much more common that good QA data collection and review would indicate issues in the mfg process that resulted in this frame.

Typically, with relatively small production volumes, the lack of a good sampling program results in 100% inspection...which would have caught this frame before it shipped. Since they didn't catch it, we'll have to assume they don't do 100% inspection(either). Given the selling price of their frames..it's fair to say they have a serious QA issue...which says a lot about the company. "...to those where much is given, much is expected.."

With the press this video is getting, the frame in question will likely be the most expensive frame they ever made.
If you had experience in manufacturing you would know that 100% inspect maybe catches around 80% of defective material. 100% inspect is not all that effective and a QA team can never inspect itís way to quality. I once showed QA that their product acceptance rates improved prior to major holidays. haha

The root problem is that manufacturing is not embracing quality manufacturing practices and producing defective material in the first place.
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Old 07-22-20, 12:00 PM
  #32  
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Man some of you are taking this way too personally. He's an internet personality, and not really much more than that.
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Old 07-29-20, 02:11 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
Commentary on Hamboney aside, IF that is a legit frame from Open, why did the owner not take it back and file a claim with a dealer? A dealer would be the place to start a claim and to verify the problem and file a warranty issue with Open. Without that basic step the origins of this frame are rather questionable. That basic step NEVER HAPPENED, so who can say if that is a legit frame or a counterfeit in the first place? Why did the owner not start the whole process with a dealer?

If this happened to you, would you send one email to the manufacturer then ship your $3k frame off to Mr. H? Just about all of us would you go back the the dealer where it was purchased from so they can inspect and if necessary take measurements and file a proper warranty claim. Unless you bought it at half price, direct from China on ebay that is...
It is a legitimate frame. The color scheme is a limited edition which was a collaboration with the german bike leasing bank JOBRAD. Like it or not it's a real OPEN frame.

OPEN has kind of replied to this on Instagram pointing out that the video is full of mistakes. The dropped chain-stay hasn't failed on a single bike in the past 5 years. The way carbon frames are made these days has nothing to do with what Hambini claims in the video. What Hambini describes (multiple parts joint together) is a manufacturing process that has been outdated 10 years ago. Regarding the BB tolerances the graphs Hambini showed seem wildly exaggerated as the variations from what should be norm are shown in an increased scale, so depending on what scale you choose you can make it look horrible. Obviously an aberration within .05 mm couldn't be detected by the human eye when shown in real scale. Also just claiming there are voids doesn't make it true. We'd like to see proof in form of testing documentation.

He really is a talented liar and pretender. He doesn't work for Airbus. His name isn't Hambini (even though he runs a business he chooses to not disclose his real name which makes it super shady).
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Old 07-29-20, 09:23 AM
  #34  
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Mods could you move this to the Hambini forum?
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Old 07-29-20, 11:20 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
Commentary on Hamboney aside, IF that is a legit frame from Open, why did the owner not take it back and file a claim with a dealer? A dealer would be the place to start a claim and to verify the problem and file a warranty issue with Open. Without that basic step the origins of this frame are rather questionable. That basic step NEVER HAPPENED, so who can say if that is a legit frame or a counterfeit in the first place? Why did the owner not start the whole process with a dealer?

If this happened to you, would you send one email to the manufacturer then ship your $3k frame off to Mr. H? Just about all of us would you go back the the dealer where it was purchased from so they can inspect and if necessary take measurements and file a proper warranty claim. Unless you bought it at half price, direct from China on ebay that is...
I was under the impression the owner did that to start and got nowhere. That is why he sent it to him...

Last edited by vespasianus; 07-31-20 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 07-29-20, 12:14 PM
  #36  
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frame quality aside, image paying extra for that terrible paintjob. you see similar ****ty painjobs from $600 open-mold factory directs, o nvm

Last edited by Chi_Z; 07-29-20 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 07-29-20, 12:33 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
Mods could you move this to the Hambini forum?
I'm a little surprised he hasn't chimed in. But maybe it should go to feedback
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Old 07-29-20, 08:40 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
I was under the impression the owners did that to start and got nowhere. That is why he sent it to him...
In the video he stated only that the owner contaced Open and got no reply.
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Old 07-30-20, 07:42 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
In the video he stated only that the owner contaced Open and got no reply.
Yeah, at the 2 minute mark he says the chap contacted Open about a warranty claim but told him (Hambini) to go ahead with what he is going to go.

What I don't like is how a single frame is extrapolated to the entire brand. That is just silly. With that said, I don't think most of these carbon frames are made to a high level. I also think this works out to the companies advantage as they might not fail in the first 2-3 years but some time after the warranty has expired. That way, they can blame the customer.

It is also surprising how strong some of these carbon frames are. A person I ride with had a crack on her cervelo right on the top tube maybe 2 inches from the head tube. She rode that thing for maybe 10K miles before having it repaired. I have seen people with carbon MTBs that have major issues ride out the day without issue.

At the same time, when carbon fails, it is completely unpredictable. Which scares the hell out of me.

Last edited by vespasianus; 07-30-20 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 07-30-20, 09:17 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by automa1971 View Post
IRegarding the BB tolerances the graphs Hambini showed seem wildly exaggerated as the variations from what should be norm are shown in an increased scale, so depending on what scale you choose you can make it look horrible. Obviously an aberration within .05 mm couldn't be detected by the human eye when shown in real scale.
I mean, that's kinda the point. Where I work, we might have a 50 micron or less tolerance on something, because we've done the testing to know that if we're outside of it, it'll cause problems. In his case, the frame was out of spec, and it may have been a super small amount not detectable to a naked eye, but it was enough to kill the bearings in the BB.
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Old 07-30-20, 03:47 PM
  #41  
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Also rides of japan on youtube was having an issue on his up where his bearings were not lasting at all so he switched to a Token thread together BB and NTN bearings to alleviate the issue. This is not a new thing.

Gotta love the brand fanboys. So much fanaticism to companies that in reality could give a crap about them.
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Old 07-30-20, 09:03 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Phatman View Post
I mean, that's kinda the point. Where I work, we might have a 50 micron or less tolerance on something, because we've done the testing to know that if we're outside of it, it'll cause problems. In his case, the frame was out of spec, and it may have been a super small amount not detectable to a naked eye, but it was enough to kill the bearings in the BB.
Exactly. That is why he uses a very simple tool to measure the BB to make sure it is within spec. The video does suggest that no QC was done on this particular frame before sale.

But honestly, crap happens. Almost everyone can make some good frames. When things are bad, how does the company act? That is what is important to me. Will Open explain this issue and if it is a defect, replace it?
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Old 07-30-20, 09:43 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
Exactly. That is why he uses a very simple tool to measure the BB to make sure it is within spec. The video does suggest that no QC was done on this particular frame before sale.

But honestly, crap happens. Almost everyone can make some good frames. When things are bad, how does the company act? That is what is important to me. Will Open explain this issue and if it is a defect, replace it?
Try to open a warranty claim with any bike brand for an out of spec bb and see what happens.
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Old 07-31-20, 05:58 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
Try to open a warranty claim with any bike brand for an out of spec bb and see what happens.
Actually, try to claim anything with most manufactures and see how they respond. My wife works at at a Tri shop and she always complains that one carbon big bike brand - starts with a C and ends with an O - always blames the customer or shop. They had a bike with a head tube issue and they blamed the shop for the issue. Every crack on the top tube is blamed on bike rack issues.

I have often found that MTB companies are much easier to deal with and have much more forgiving crash and accident policies. Crash your frame or do something stupid, get a new frame for ~$500. Road bike companies, SOL.
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Old 07-31-20, 10:07 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
Actually, try to claim anything with most manufactures and see how they respond. My wife works at at a Tri shop and she always complains that one carbon big bike brand - starts with a C and ends with an O - always blames the customer or shop. They had a bike with a head tube issue and they blamed the shop for the issue. Every crack on the top tube is blamed on bike rack issues.

I have often found that MTB companies are much easier to deal with and have much more forgiving crash and accident policies. Crash your frame or do something stupid, get a new frame for ~$500. Road bike companies, SOL.
It's funny you tell that story because of the history between Cervelo and Open (same founders).

And yeah mtb brands all know what real customer service is. It's the reason why my last 3 gravel bikes have been from brands that mainly do mtb.
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Old 07-31-20, 12:39 PM
  #46  
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also helps that mtbrs are not weight weenies, so framesets are usually overbuild and less likely to fail. My Niner RLT's carbon fork is almost 600g, i don't see this fork failing anytime soon
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Old 07-31-20, 12:43 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Chi_Z View Post
also helps that mtbrs are not weight weenies, so framesets are usually overbuild and less likely to fail. My Niner RLT's carbon fork is almost 600g, i don't see this fork failing anytime soon
Yeah, but the abuse they take is 100x more. The key is when they break because the owners did something stupid, the companies work with them to get them back riding at a fair price. Don't see lots of pure road companies doing that.
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Old 07-31-20, 02:17 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Chi_Z View Post
also helps that mtbrs are not weight weenies, so framesets are usually overbuild and less likely to fail. My Niner RLT's carbon fork is almost 600g, i don't see this fork failing anytime soon
The other side of the coin to that too is that when you break an mtb frame the manufacturer actually wants to know how you broke the thing in the first place to see if things can be improved. This never happens in the road world. I've seen people break $3000-3500 Santa Cruz frames where it's 100% their fault and with one call to them they get offered a new frame for like 800 bucks. And if the frame is no longer made they get sent the newest version.
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Old 07-31-20, 02:44 PM
  #49  
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I have other problems with Trek, but they seem to treat their customers pretty well. I didn't realize there was a connection between Cervello and Open. Not that I would buy either one
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Old 08-02-20, 12:07 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
Actually, try to claim anything with most manufactures and see how they respond. My wife works at at a Tri shop and she always complains that one carbon big bike brand - starts with a C and ends with an O - always blames the customer or shop. They had a bike with a head tube issue and they blamed the shop for the issue. Every crack on the top tube is blamed on bike rack issues.

I have often found that MTB companies are much easier to deal with and have much more forgiving crash and accident policies. Crash your frame or do something stupid, get a new frame for ~$500. Road bike companies, SOL.

Iíve heard that Scott is bad about warranties too, and theyíve got a pretty extensive mtb lineup.

FWIW, Iíve had pretty good warranty experiences with both Specialized and Cannondale, though they were both pretty clear cut. The Specialized frame failure was a known design defect, and the Cannondale crack was right at the HAZ of the dropout weld...exactly where youíd expect a fatigue failure to show up on an Aluminum frame.
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