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Old 01-16-16, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
This. Conversely you may need to go from a low RPM. And you have banking that you or your competition can use to get a running start. And passing means taking the long way around in the corner or gambling on enough kick to come around.

That's just for mass start races. Match sprinting you might be jumping from a near dead stop. Tactics in match sprints are a whole different ballgame. You're probing for opportunity to get separation. Sometimes separation doesn't help though. At nats I went from 750 out against the eventual winner and 500m world record holder. Had a gap. Blew around me in the final corner like I was glued down.
And seperation is a 3D game. Unlike the road it's not just gap, if I'm above you and even I'm ahead. If you then decide to go up track you are toast. I miss that game.

It's surprising how far behind you start to feel a little pull from another rider, a cool sensation. But again you need the leg speed as well as the watts to make the run.

It's all so subtle, like the small moves up and down to control gaps in a pace line, I don't know how Zwift could simulate it.

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Old 01-16-16, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Heathpack
Out of curiosity, how do track and road sprinting differ?
Great question...

Pure track sprinters versus track racers, who are also good at sprinting, require great leg strength and ability to produce very high power in bursts around 10 to 12 seconds in duration. Since the bike is fixed gear no brakes, higher leg speed is a requirement.

Pure track sprinters spend very little time working on endurance and in fact endurance (and this is true for all of us) is a speed killer. Having said that track sprinters need just enough endurance to accelerate up to speed and put in the last 10 to 12 seconds of full power effort.

When I attend the 4PM sessions at Velo Sports Center in Carson, I have the opportunity to watch Travis Williams and Adam Duvendeck's coaching session for their sprinters. Most of the work involve a motor bringing the sprinters up to speed and they use a motor for a very long and slow warmup. Most of the time no one is on the track since they are all sitting in staging area resting.

Travis and Adam are partners in Momentum Coaching and they coach many very successful track sprinters. If all I wanted to do was sprint, I would use these guys. Adam is an olympian and elite national sprint champion and Travis is Canadian multinational sprint champion. Plus Adam was on the Bachelorette but unfortunately did not get the rose.

Here is a video of Adam winning the 2009 elite national championships match sprint competition.


Strength metrics on pure sprinters are large. My buddy Nate at VSC, leg presses 1000 pound and back squats 450. Another racer, Missy, trains with Momentum and she can press 900 pounds. Both men and women who are pure sprinters develop large legs which are okay for the very short efforts but prove to be a competitive disadvantage in longer races where aero and power and most importantly oxygen transport is more important than pure strength.

Track racers and road racers, who are great sprinters, need a lot more endurance because they have to get to the last 10 - 12 seconds or 200 meters of the race at the front of the peloton in order to sprint. And in mass start races such as the points and scratch race, racers with big aerobic engines can lap the field and negate the advantage that sprinters have.

Motor work is a key component of track racing and quite frankly road racing. The motor is a relentless device that keeps the pace high and it can programmatically increase the pace to make certain efforts even harder. Plus there are drills that can be done with the motor where racers ride shielded by the motor, off the motor, next to the motor, beat the motor and launched by the motor. All of which are excellent for increasing power, endurance and leg speed and are amazingly fun to do.
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Old 01-16-16, 12:51 PM
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Would be good to have a mod split the sprinting part of this out into another thread.

How you define "endurance" matters when you're talking about match sprinting. The term has different meanings in different contexts. Certainly you're not worried about riding centuries or even 20k points races, but its essential to be able to make multiple efforts during a match, which might include a flying 200 and a repechage or two, without a drop off in acceleration.

I've seen the fastest qualifier lose in late rounds because they had an obvious drop off in speed after riding several rounds prior. In some cases they kept riding hard in early rounds even though the opponent had conceded. Gotta save those matches. And have them in the first place.

Theo Bos is an interesting case of a guy who was dominant as a match sprinter, but even with extensive training and experience never produced much on the road. Cav wasn't even considered a "sprinter" in the UK track program. This is why the ewang stuff is so full of holes...context matters.

Last edited by Racer Ex; 01-16-16 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 01-16-16, 01:12 PM
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USA Crits has started running a "criterium" on the Watopia flat course. It's not really a crit though. I haven't done it. I would love to see them add a downtown crit course but I bet they will want to add course choice first. Your average Zwifter would be bored to tears riding around in circles.

About 1.5 hours of warmup and the Colorado ZTR ride. The ride never formed a group so I rode with small groups instead on the Richmond course. I was pretty cooked from the racing and the gym the past two days so I kept it between 2.5 and 3.5 except on the climbs. For the last lap I stuck with one ZTR guy who really knew how to pace on Zwift. It makes such a difference in the game experience. Moved to level 12 and wore a blue and grey camo jersey.
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Old 01-16-16, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rapwithtom
LAJ, I know you're working hard...do you have any goals for the season that you'd care to share?
My goal is to stay the hell away from Sy.
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Old 01-16-16, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Racer Ex
Would be good to have a mod split the sprinting part of this out into another thread.
What? Talking about the physiology of various types of sprint efforts is off-topic for the Zwift ride meet-up thread?!

<whoops, sorry ya'll.>
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Old 01-17-16, 07:34 AM
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Anyone riding today (1/17)? I'm debating RGR or the masters race.
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Old 01-17-16, 10:13 AM
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2x30 SST on the Old Course this morning. Good ride, stuck to the zone instead of creeping up into threshold. Was thinking about ZMR but decided to keep intensity in check. I don't think todays ride will have any impact on my sprint physiology.
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Old 01-17-16, 08:31 PM
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No riding for me today. 8 hours on the road bringing the kid back to school. I'm off work tomorrow, seeing the eye doctor and picking up Mrs. Shovel's new car. I'll be on the game in the afternoon.
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Old 01-23-16, 09:31 AM
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I'm going to do the noon EST CTS group ride.
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Old 01-23-16, 09:42 AM
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I get to ride outside in the real world!! It's going to be >50 today - can't remember the last time that happened!
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Old 01-23-16, 10:12 AM
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Old 01-23-16, 04:14 PM
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CTS ride. This one does three laps of Richmond with CTS coaches. The first lap is 2.0 (actually, 2.6), the second is 2.5 (actually, 2.8), and the last lap is 3.0 (actually, 3.2). Also, my PC8 reports power about 10w higher than Zwift is reporting it, so my ewang is always off. I trust my SRM system. Finished at the front with the lead coach and did the last kilo at 4+. Last ride on the standard SRM. The Felt is torn down for a frame up rebuild. I'll be riding the Redline with Stages. It will be interesting to see how Zwift reports power from the Stages.
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Old 01-25-16, 09:26 PM
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Did the BTW (Back to Work) ride. 3 laps of Watopia flat. Advertised as start at 1.0, ramping to 2.0-2.5 for the rest. Actual was go at the gun, settle into 3.0-3.5 for the whole ride. Typical Zwift group ride nonsense. Hard ride, I had to be focused for the duration. I was on the Redline with the Stages because the Felt is on the stand in the middle of an overhaul. I had no warmup, thinking the 1.0 section would do it. I also didn't turn on the fan for the same reason. Big mistake. I jumped off the bike in the flat section of the tunnel to turn on the fan. The group was going at 27mph. I jumped back on as fast as I could but I had to chase for a minute to get back on.
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Old 01-26-16, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by shovelhd
The first lap is 2.0 (actually, 2.6), the second is 2.5 (actually, 2.8), and the last lap is 3.0 (actually, 3.2).
Is it amoral to adjust your Zwift weight pre-race so that the anticipated wattage reflects the workout one is desiring?


Originally Posted by shovelhd
I trust my SRM system.
That would be the money quote. Pun intended. But, for all of you weighing your power meter options, there it is.


Originally Posted by shovelhd
Typical Zwift group ride nonsense.
My experience every time, so far.
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Old 01-26-16, 08:06 PM
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Egos and no repercussions. A free for all. They are all not like this but you need to be prepared.

I would never weight dope. I'd rather go above my very loose target and go off the back. I deliberately race down. My power is high B/A but I race C. It's more realistic that way. Don't forget that it's not all weight dopers, you are riding and racing on the world stage.

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Old 01-27-16, 01:14 AM
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Big number of folks as well. Seen 700+ folks on there. Have to say it's a great workout...I can't recall hitting the trainer so hard that I did my finish line growl before...
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Old 01-27-16, 09:32 AM
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I'll be on this afternoon around 17:00 EST. No group ride or race, no workout or goals.
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Old 01-27-16, 08:11 PM
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The TGI ride last Friday was actually pretty reasonable for pace.

Did some 5m intervals this evening. For some reason that time range, 5 to 8m, have always been the hardest for me mentally. Paced them well tonight for a change. I think there was a special event of some sort, over 1000 riders out.
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Old 01-27-16, 09:03 PM
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I tried the figure 8 which doesn't really reflect how crowded it can be. Try it sometime. I was by myself most of the time.
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Old 01-28-16, 05:06 PM
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I'm going to try the underground ZUR race at 21:30 EST tonight. I may not stick around for the whole thing, but I want to try racing on Watopia when everyone else is on Richmond.
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Old 01-28-16, 09:27 PM
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The race was a trip. Two small groups, A/B and C/D. I chose C based on my ZTR category. There's basically nobody else on the course at the time. The C/D started with about 8 which dropped down to 6 after the first climb. I was one of the stronger riders, so this was a legit C group. I took the green jersey on the first lap sprint, attacked a few times and caused a few chases. The course is the figure eight, which is long, so I bagged out after the first lap. It's a late race and I have to work. I will do this one again though, at least until Zwift locks it out.
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Old 01-30-16, 10:26 AM
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Watopia this morning at 0630. It was raining, so coach said "if it's raining, Zwift". I set the trainer for the second resistance level (of three). It was more "realistic", but it still wasn't right. The watopia Climb, for instance - I'm doing 85-95 RPM, 134 - 160 watts (Garmin and Zwift agree) and going - 4 MPH! I understand that it's the algorithm Zwift uses, and it's going to take some getting used to. Also, on the sprints, I can't get enough resistance to really do a proper sprint. Power is low, so is the speed. That's all a function of my trainer, I shouldn't argue, I should just ride. Anyway, it was hard. But, fun.
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Old 01-30-16, 03:58 PM
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@sarals There must be something wrong with the setup / inputs into Zwift. I assume you under aerodynamics from your flight training and power to weight from cycling. Assuming you weigh 60 Kg and make 150 watts measured by your power meter, your W/kg ratio is 2.5 W/kg. Assuming a normal frontal area for a woman and drag coefficient, your speed should be normal on hills. 4.4 mph seems like the climb would be a pretty steep gradient for 2.5 W/kg. Note that the W/Kg have nothing to do with your trainer.

Now if you are not using a power meter and relying on Zwift to figure out what your power is based upon telling it what trainer you are using, then all bets are off.

The couple of times I used Zwift, my speed on the course (hills, flat and descent) made sense for my W/Kg as measured by my power meter. YMMV.
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Old 01-30-16, 04:06 PM
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As a followup, I ran the Low Key Hill Climb power calculator for Old La Honda. 130 pounds + 20 pounds of equipment @150 watts yields a 32:44 @ 6.1 mph. Average grade is 7.2 %.
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