I pulled out of a 2 lap mtb race yesterday due to complete failure and fatigue. The race started by climbing a paved road for 1/2 mile then into the woods. Out of the group of 70+ riders I entered the woods # 7 to 9. It was a roadie dream start as those mtb'rs don't climb like roadies and I wasn't even pushing the envelope like I would in a RR. From there over the next 1 hr I believe most every rider passed me. There was no recovery in my body after any hard effort. Forty five minutes after I stopped racing and while standing at the finish line in the shade my HR was still 88 -92 bpm. Over night the sweats came on and my lungs began the burn. Today I've have a deep cold and every time I cough to clear the lung cookies I want to just die because my lungs and head both want to explode.

An interesting observation about the racers on the course. There was a huge number of racers in all three races on single speed mtb's with solid CF forks. I asked one racer about it and he said most are local racers who know the course and that a few years ago the promoter offered big prizes for SS bikes. Current races don't split multi-gear from SS. It was a hilly race with not many challenging sections or dangerous drops which should have played into my mtb strengths. There were even 5 unicyclist racing that I could not envision riding the same terrain. Those dorks are uber cool.:lol:

The mystery of my race disaster is solved, now time to deal with the cold. Thinking about it, I got a flu shot recently when I went to the doctors for the infection on my knee. WTF?

Flu shot = temporarily compromised immune system = susceptibility to other viruses

I train and race like most everyone else. If you are not committed, forget about racing. The guys I hang with seem to be even more focused than me. I may do a better job of writing about what I do.

I decided to look at time in power zones on Sat's group ride:

1: 46'
2: 27'
3: 26'
4: 19'
5: 11'
6: 14'

About 99 minutes below threshold, and 44 above. It was a fairly typical group ride, with hills providing the high intensity, although I took the 9 mile hill in z3. As I get past my off-season, I'll be layering base on top of this weekly ride, plus occasionally a faster Sunday ride and as many Tuesday practice crits as I can. Doesn't sound like I'll be lacking in intensity to keep the higher zones worked?

Last week was my lightest in forever... 4.5 hours! Commuting easy and doing the crit tomorrow night.

Hi AzTR,

Do you have a reference on how you are calculating your power zones? I am far from an expert but I thought that one could only train or compete above threshold for a small percentage of a total workout or event. For instance, in the 5-zone system that I use (based on % of max heart rate), I am lucky if I can hold Z4 for 2-3 minutes at a time and maybe 6 reps. Z5 is an all out sprint for 15 seconds. TIA.

BTW, bottom to mid-Z4 puts me above threshold in the system I use.

That's interesting. I too would be interested in AzT's answer because I too train with heartrate. But my experience is different from yours. I'm by no means in top shape but I can ride in HR zone 4 (for me that is 158 - 167) for extended periods, a 10-mile TT will see my HR in the high 150s throughout, sometimes nudging into the 160s. Once I go into Z5 I am going to cook pretty quickly, I'm not immediately all-out but I'll need to back off after 30seconds or so to recover. Just goes to show, we're all different.

Edit. It occurs to me that we may be describing our zones differently. I take Z4 to be 85%-90% of MHR

I used my HRM for the first time in over a year on Sunday's 2:45 ride. As we all know, HR response is determined by many factors such as fatigue, hydration, electrolytes and etc. I was reasonably rested. What was interesting Sunday was that I did not need much HR for a lot of power. It took almost 50 minutes before I started to get a good HR response. At z4 power, my HR hit what was previously z3. My resting HR is down from 55 to 48 bpm. The only way I was able to raise my HR to above 140 was higher cadence climbing on a 6% grade. As a check on the monitor, I did a timed pulse check on my neck while riding and it matched the HRM. Further, my lower cadence efforts have always resulted in less HR for the same power.

AZT, Your power distribution is different from my typical rides. You have a lot of z6. There is nothing wrong with that per se and probably a response to competition but for this time of year, the focus is more about recovery and rejuvenation. The z3 and z4 are okay. This is where you have to know yourself. As long as you can recover and keep doing this type of ride both mentally and physically and get stronger, then it is perfect. If you start to fatigue but keep driving yourself, it may be counter productive.

I use the Allen-Coggan book; table page 48.

1. Active Recovery <55% of FTP
2. Endurance 56-75
3. Tempo 76-90
4. Lactate Threshold 91-105
5. VO2 Max 106-120
6. Anaerobic Capacity 121-150
7. Neuromuscular Power 151+

The higher zones are accumulations of shorter bursts over the course of the ride. Corners, short hills, etc.

z4 is where you cross the threshold in both power zones and the HR zones I use. Should be able to hold z4 for quite some time. Maybe your zones are set too high and you're really up in z5? HR zones are ideally set by finding your lactate threshold. Max is only useful in determining LT, and people vary in where LT is in relation to MHR. It turns out my LT is low compared to my MHR. At least it was when I got a metabolic test a year ago. I estimated my MHR using my LT, and then went way over that max when I started going crit's. I'm going to schedule another test to nail down my aerobic zones for base training.

My coach will give me workouts in power zones and HR zones. The first 2 years I trained with him I used HR and after getting the PT last January we used the combination. I have noticed the same as Hermes on longer Z3 and Z4 training intervals. Using power I know the wattage needed to ride at the required level from the get-go. In the past I probably pushed the effort in order to get the HR into the zone then maintained the HR by adjusting effort. I recall last winter doing a 1.5 hr ride that was supposed to be a 15 min WU then 1 hr of Z3 HR then 15 min WD. It was in the 30's during the ride and it took a huge effort to maintain a Z3 HR and I quit the interval around 40 minutes then had to ride back home a broken sweaty mess. A few weeks later I did the same workout using the PT and found that I was producing L3/4 power with a Z2 HR probably due in the most part to the cold. The failed workout was probably done in L4+ resulting in me blowing apart.

Earlier this fall I did a Z3 interval set consisting of 40 min low L3, 40 min mid L3 and 40 min high L3 using power. My HR did not reach Z3 until about 1/2 through the middle interval, then once I began the high L3 the HR elevated to mid-high Z3.

I also recall killing myself on 3’ hill intervals @ Z5 by using the HR display as feedback on the effort. The effort in the interval to reach Z5 within 3 minutes exceeded Z5 and was most likely at Z5b.

When training with HR I believe that I allowed the HR monitor to be the guide, and followed it, but should have used PE on some of the efforts due to the variables.

This is interesting, and exactly matches my experience. If I try to get up into Z3, let alone Z4, too early in the ride I will pay for it later and have to back off to avoid going anaerobic. Whereas if I go by PE early on and allow the HR to climb slowly to the intended zone, I can manage my sessions much more effectively and stay in Z4 for quite a whIle.

Likewise, again. If I'm doing hill repeats I have to use the HRM with discretion because on the early efforts, getting HR into Z4 or Z5 would cause me to max out and be unable to complete the next one. So I now aim off, using my experience of what it should feel like to allow for the lag, and sure enough, by the third or fourth effort my HR has caught up with the game.

It's an interesting exercise in not being tyrannized by the numbers.

Coach warns me, in the instructions for any interval workout, that my HR won't reach the expected zone until maybe the 3rd or 4th rep. Since I've been coached almost since I started training, I've always taken the delay into account.

Hermes - sounds like your HR data confirms your improvement. I know there is something in WKO+ that correlates power and HR, but I haven't looked at it much.

Thanks AZT, My cardio system has improved over the last year. In addition to lowering my resting rate, the drop in HR after I stop is much faster. I find power intervals to be much harder than HR intervals. What happens to me using RPE is that my legs start to fatigue and give a sense of producing the same power. In reality my HR is increasing, the level of effort feels hard but the power is dropping. The power meter eliminates that problem but holding constant power for long periods of time is hard. However, that is the key feature of power training: the ability to train smarter and harder and calibrate your legs to how various levels of power feel.

I had my second colonoscopy. The first one was 10 years ago. The procedure is trivial and easy but the prep is annoying. I could only have clear liquid yesterday and I had to drink two 1 liter bottles of MoviPrep - one at 4PM yesterday and one at 4AM today. It tastes awful. I just got back from the Doc's so I am writing this under the influence of the drug that does not allow you to remember. I plan on getting back into the gym tonight for a leg workout followed by rollers.

Hi,

I didn't mean to turn this into a big training by HR vs power thread. ;)

Hi chasm54, Z4 is where I am having some trouble understanding training intervals if Z4 is defined as the HR where threshold occurs. Reading articles and working with Roger Young over the years on HR training, my understanding is that once you are past threshold you can't maintain the effort for more than a few minutes. From a racing perspective it's the kind of effort that you maintain to get a gap or close a gap. It's the kind of effort that you can do and still be able to get back to a sustained Z3 effort. Going into Z5 should kill you and cause you to need to drop down to Z2 or even Z1 to recover.

BTW, I don't have access to my zone breakdowns as a percentage of max HR. I haven't had my max or threshold tests done in several years and I now that I should get tested again soon.

Hi Hermes, I think that's why it makes sense to get tested regularly. Training effect is supposed to allow more power or speed at a lower HR. Your observations mean to me that your training is working. :)

Hi AzTR, thanks for the reference information. I haven't read Allen-Coggan but I will compare it to what I have from Roger Young and Friel. Your definition of your Z4 being where you cross threshold seems comparable to what I wrote above except that it is an effort that you can't hold for a long time because it is above threshold. I'll have to re-read some books that I have.

Hi AJ, I think that PE is also something in which many of us don't have enough faith. Again, since I don't have a power meter you can take this with a grain of salt, but sometimes I think the we, or at least I, put too much into the numbers and not enough into how we feel. I've done good TTs and criteriums without my computer when I've forgotten my HR strap. The computers certainly help us train more effectively but at the same time it comes down to what your willing to do to yourself when it comes to race performances.

Look at Hermes racing on the track without a computer. :)

And that comment by itself may be enough to push me over the edge with respect to power meters. However, I will probably wait for the Garmin pedal solution.

Thanks everyone for all of the information and comments. :thumb:

Cleave, the HR zones I use were created as percentages of LT, and come from the Australia Institute of Science (what the tester uses), which does a lot of research in the area. Compared to these, Friel's zones will push you to a higher HR, which is probably why you experience what you do in z4. From my reading, combining someone elses exercises with Friel zones is a great way to overtrain.

I'm also including what my zones are as a % of my MHR, which is 188. My LT last test was 161:

.....................................%LT.........%Max
1....Recovery.......................0...75......0...64
2....Aerobic Endurance.............76...91.....65...78
3....Intensive Aerobic Endurance...91...96.....78...82
4....Threshold.....................97..102.....83...87
5a...Anaerobic Endurance..........102..107.....88...92
5b...Power/VO2 Development........108..117.....93..100
5c...Neuromuscular Power

I go on and on about this stuff, because that is the best way for me to gain a decent understanding of it, and so Hermes can correct me if I have it wrong.

This one finally has prototypes. Shoe based: gives you power on any bike you ride. http://www.brimbrothers.com/2011/06/announcing-zone/

Cute video on swapping the PM from one bike to another, LOL: http://www.brimbrothers.com/2011/09/how-to-move-a-zone/

Cleave, The miscommunication about heart rate and power zones when using Roger Young's methods is that Roger has 5 zones with z5 being a max power sprint. Since I have used him as a coach, I have his training manual. Essentially, Roger defines tempo or threshold as race pace which is z3 for him. z4 is bridging pace - very hard. So in his workouts at the track, z3 is a hard effort and z4 is very hard and sustained for only a short period of time.

Coggan and Hunter, in Training and Racing with a Power Meter, created more granularity by expanding the the zones and creating ranges. And they defined z4 as the power or heart rate that one can sustain for one hour and assigned a training stress score of 100 to it. So when you did your 40 K 58:xx time trial, you raced it at z4 power - by definition and scored 100. Coggan further breaks Rogers bridging power into z5 and z6. Others have elected to break down the z4, z5 and z6 into an "a" and "b".

Instead of having an "a" and "b" Andy Coggan has ranges. So if your threshold power is 250 watts, the Coggan values range from 228 to 264 watts.

As an engineer, I like the precision of the Coggan system. However, training with Roger is very tough and effective precision be damned. This was also true when I trained with the Russians.

When I talk with successful old school time trialists who have won Worlds and Nationals, they will say one has to train at long duration at race pace, shorter above race pace and a lot at below race pace on the time trail bike. And nothing prepares you better for racing time trials that racing and practicing time trials with the measurement of choice a measured distance and a stop watch.

I like my power meter a lot and think it is much better than heart rate. I am finally beginning to know myself. It is easy for me to work with Roger and adjust my workouts to whatever he wants using my power meter without confusion. The power meter is a precise instrument that provides an ideal communication mechanism between the athlete and the coach when the coach and the athlete are not in personal contact. Now having said that, going to Roger's 4PM session and training with his gang of World and National Champs and plus having Roger watching everything and controlling the workouts from the motorcycle is about a pro as one can get. There is nothing better than that and the power meter and heart rate monitor are at best interesting devices.

And his 7PM session where you and I occasionally train together is excellent. There are 3 levels of effort - pole lane, stayers line and the balustrade. So one gets the benefit of Roger's structured program and the opportunity to measure oneself against peers. Once again, it is very pro and effective and measurement devices are not really that relevant.

When I trained with the Russians, they would start us on a climb and drive ahead. I would come around a turn and one would say, the next rider is one minute ahead, pick it up. They were always watching us. They would put us out in teams of similar ability and we would do drills.

It is all good.

+1, :thumb: as long as the athlete knows the program he/she is following and the criteria it is based upon. Consistent over training can waste a season. A 50+ guy on my team thought that by going gonzo for the past month and a half would elevate him up in cross. Instead his fitness is a mess right now.

Great points. Last year, I started racing January 1 and raced until November 5th in the Worlds Track Championships. I peaked in July and every month thereafter got worse. I attended a presentation where the optimum time window for training and peaking is 6 months. After 6 months, there has to be a rest period. And as you mentioned and experienced, there can be over training within a 6 month period.

The Russians were very good on the above. They were worried about over training and anytime I raced they immediately backed off the work load. They liked to race from March to August with September as an easy month and then restart training in the gym in October. This year, I started much later and raced less but through September. Now I am in the gym and doing easier rides with very little z5 and z6.

Yeah, I feel like I feel victim to over-training in June after starting my season in January. I backed it down for a couple of weeks at the end of June and then July was lower intensity with higher volume. I felt like things were coming back together for nationals until I crashed. I should probably do some gym work but it is such a chore for me mentally to do those workouts and it seems like when I've done them in the past the small amount of upper body muscle mass that I've gained has been counter-productive. :p

Anyway, I need to back off a bit again and try to get volume back up in November and December.

I did the practice crit tonight: 40 minutes in the B race, and then an extra 20 minutes getting dropped by the A's a couple of times. I was 2nd or 3rd in the B's. Hit 274w for 30' - NP of 307. Fun stuff, but I spent another 30' above threshold - 17 of it in z6. I continue to be amazed by the speed of Mr. Freaky Fast USA champ (Eric) He pulled us Bs around towards the end, encouraging those of us who had broken away to pull through and keep the momentum up. Nobody did, and we fell apart. A couple of guys got away from me after that happened. I was sure they'd fade, but then Eric went back up again and pulled them. Wups. From what I could see, I think only one guy stayed up there. I may have passed the other guy at the end - just not sure given all the lapped riders in the mix. I stayed top 3 most of the time, doing my share on the front.

Great report ATR. It wasn't that long ago that your goal was to stay in the B race and now you are testing the waters of the A race. You may find racing with the A's will need the same or less ave watts but a whole lot more watts again then again. Looking at some of my training crit race files a big difference is in the "0" watts breakout. In B races I produced 0 watts around 9-12% of the time while in the A races I produced 0 watts 20- 24% of the race. Once you adapt to the high output and recovery you will begin to hang until the break attempts then it really gets hard which will be a whole new challenge to meet. That is the breaking point for most everyone in the pack as the strong riders are trying to get away and everyone else is trying to hold a wheel.

I have not been on a bike since Sunday's mtb race failure. The flu has really hit me hard. Last night was the battle of battles when I tried to sleep. I was freezing then pouring sweat, then repeat again and again. I think I recall having a nightmare while I was awake. Today I stayed home from work, which I do very infrequently, and have been watching mindless TV shows. I am feeling better by the hour and am thinking that I have beaten the kraken and it has retreated back to the lair. Our 8 day steak of perfect postcard days has ended with cold rains beginning today and lasting through the weekend. Time to get out the rain gear and fenders. I hope to get a 2 hr Z2 ride in tomorrow and some 15 minute Z4 intervals on the cross bike on Thursday if I'm feeling up to it. I do have to remind myself that it was 6 weeks ago that I crashed my cross bike in the rain, on the wooden footbridge, and that I just finished up taking the antibiotic for the knee infection.;)

I thought reminders like those were spousal obligations. We're supposed to be able to keep telling ourselves we're fine to ride, and have them chain us to the bed so we don't kill ourselves.

One thing these training crits is helping with is getting rid of my tendency to feather the brakes setting up a turn, often when I could be accelerating. Towards the end I finally stopped letting thoughts of how I clipped a pedal last crit get the best of me, and I powered through more. I also successfully moved up in the As by pushing hard when folks eased off for a few seconds. Second time I tried moving up the line was single file and had a "no cutting" sign up.

Winter Training Camp
 

Okay, let's see if we can make this happen. I'll throw some ideas out there, and you guys can pick them apart, just like when I try to say something intelligent about cycling. :lol:

I'm thinking a long weekend:
..Friday - Long training ride
..Saturday - Track?
..Sunday - Training ride? Group ride?

Plus lots of story swapping and consumption of healthy beverages containing anti-oxidants. Oh, and some food.

Possible weekends: 12/3 or 12/17

I know Sara works every other weekend, and those fit her schedule. If December doesn't work, we can look at early 2012.

Thoughts?