Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Mountain Biking
Reload this Page >

Trail Etiquette...encounter on first trail ride

Notices
Mountain Biking Mountain biking is one of the fastest growing sports in the world. Check out this forum to discuss the latest tips, tricks, gear and equipment in the world of mountain biking.

Trail Etiquette...encounter on first trail ride

Old 05-22-05, 05:56 PM
  #1  
jc1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Trail Etiquette...encounter on first trail ride

First opportunity for a trail ride. Had my 10 and 6 year olds along with their BMX bikes. Hit the Fullerton loop for a slow paced 1hr or so in and back.

We passed a guy twice, once in and once out who was walking his dog. On the way out we passed him on a wide fire road section. Our pace was slow and we passed with plenty of room.

Our second pass was on a narrower section. We slowed way down and waited for the trail to be wide enough to pass safely. While waiting at a street crossing the guy catches up and begins to rant about animials having the right of way. How my kids are "riding their bikes back and forth on the trail" and how we are in danger of getting bit by a dog.

I explained to him that 1) this a busy trail, especially on the weekends. 2)as far as I know this is a bike trail too 3) we slowed down and passed him very safely.

I actually stopped and read the trail rules to my kids after that and still don't see where this guy is coming from. We actually passed a few other walkers/riders/joggers all who seemed to either be concentrating on their own excercise or otherwise were very friendly.

So the question is....did I just encounter a random A-hole on my first trail ride, or did we miss something.
jc1 is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 06:02 PM
  #2  
hebrew_rider
a badass heeb on wheels
 
hebrew_rider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Santa Cruz, California
Posts: 219

Bikes: Santa Cruz Chameleon

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
yeah, he was a jerk, also, there has been a long and sorted dispute lasting since the birth of mountain biking between hikers and cyclists.
hebrew_rider is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 06:04 PM
  #3  
Devoidarex
Resident Silent Dissident
 
Devoidarex's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Posts: 33

Bikes: 2005 Hardrock Sport

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sounds to me like he was a bit of a jerk, but I don't know.

As a new trail rider myself, I find that I'm having problems with hikers/pedestrians/pets as well, especially when approaching from behind.

Usually, I just slow down and coast, and the clicking sound of the drivetrain makes them look over their shoulder. When they see me, they generally move over. However, a few times I've had to call out, and one time the two women I was calling two both jumped and screeched (I totally startled them, I guess).

I can't figure out a better way to let my presence known. I prefer to ride when the trail traffic is lightest (early morning and dinnertime).
Devoidarex is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 06:18 PM
  #4  
Funkychicken
mmm... chicken!
 
Funkychicken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 668

Bikes: 04 Kona Blast

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
random a-hole who doesn't like kids. where i live they dont allow bikes on the singletrack, but NONE of the trails allow dogs at all, so i've never heard a dog walker complain to me.
Funkychicken is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 06:25 PM
  #5  
jc1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Given the stiuation, the speed, the pass, etc...the only thing we could have done better would have been to get off our bikes and walk past him.

Funny thing about it is that as we approached the guy, I was explaining to my 6 year old how it was our responsibility to slow down and wait for a safe place to pass.

The other thing is that this part of the trail had both a main road trail and a side single track. The guy was walking his two dogs down on the single track and was not keeping to the right as the rules read.

Anyway...we had a blast, my 10 year old and I wanted to keep going, but my 6 year old was holding us back. Other than the one guy, we had a very sucesfull first trail experience.

I am going back next weekend with just my 10 year old so we can cover more ground.
jc1 is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 06:30 PM
  #6  
Maelstrom 
Wood Licker
 
Maelstrom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Whistler,BC
Posts: 16,966

Bikes: Trek Fuel EX 8 27.5 +, 2002 Transition Dirtbag, Kona Roast 2002

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Around here an "on your left" is a requirement to any ride Also on trails here, bikes have the right of way because they are bike trails, if this is multi-use then things may be different.
Maelstrom is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 06:48 PM
  #7  
Killer B
THIS BIKE'S 4 U !!!!
 
Killer B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Western, NC .... (Pisgah, Bent Creek, DuPont)
Posts: 1,272

Bikes: HARO Xtreme X2, K2 Lithium 3.0, K2 Beast, K2 Flyin' Monkey, DiamondBack Accent EX, DiamondBack Axis TR

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Pack a sidearm like I do, and that'll usually keep the rude remarks to a minimum.... Even the ones with Rotweiller's and Pit Bull's show respect. I've been bit once by an Austrailian Shepperd. I hope I never have to use my weapon, but I have every right to carry & use it if necessary.... Nuf said. Try to get along if you can. You'll sometimes encounter A$$holes no matter where you go or what you do. It's a part of life I suppose....
Killer B is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 06:54 PM
  #8  
LordOpie
Senior Member
 
LordOpie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Denver
Posts: 3,698

Bikes: 2006 custom Walt Works roadie, 2003 Fuji Finest (road), 2002 Giant Iguana (mtb), 1986 BMW K75 (motor)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jc1
...how we are in danger of getting bit by a dog.

I explained to him that if his dog threatened my kids, I would beat both him and his dog to a bloody pulp.
Fixed.

I've only seen rules where horses have the right of way. I have seen rules where dogs are supposed to be kept on a leash and in control at all times. That guy needs a boot to his head.
LordOpie is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 07:01 PM
  #9  
Speedub.Nate
fanatik
 
Speedub.Nate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posts: 432
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Devoidarex
I'm having problems with hikers/pedestrians/pets as well, especially when approaching from behind....

...I can't figure out a better way to let my presence known.


Seriously.

Yeah, they're dorky, but they serve a purpose. They're pretty incognito, but look closely and you'll see that lots of us have them. On some trails I ride, they're even required (even where helmets may not be!!! Priorities, huh?).

A good ring-a-ding from 100' back or so is a pretty harmless way to let a hiker know you're approaching, without the startling "On you LEFT!" or the clackity-clack-clack of a idling freehub.

Yeah, some hikers can be jackoffs before you ever get near them, but a ding-a-ling, a smile, a friendly greeting and a respectful passing speed can generate a lot of goodwill for the rest of us.
Speedub.Nate is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 07:09 PM
  #10  
phinney
Senior Member
 
phinney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 748

Bikes: Schwinn Rocket 88, Schwinn Fastback, Cannondale Road Tandem, GT Timberline rigid steel mtb

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
ic1: You were too nice to the guy. He suggested his dog was a threat to bite your kids. Reason enough for that dog not to be in public, ever. I don't know about you but if someone threatens my kids, even in an indirect way, they've just stepped way over the line.

Devoidarex: It's good practice to make some noise when you're still far enough away that you don't startle the walkers.

Killer B: Only if your life is at risk and you have no other reasonable option to defend yourself.
phinney is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 07:16 PM
  #11  
jc1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for all the feedback on this... I was a little on edge due to the fact that I had my little kids with me and that It was my first time on a trail, first time in the sport for that matter.

It was a bit discouraging to have to have words with the guy in front of my kids, and discouraging that it is part of their first MTB trail experience as well. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing anything here.

I will just chock it up as an encounter with a random A-hole and go about my business. We did have a lot of fun.
jc1 is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 07:22 PM
  #12  
mtnbiker66
Old School Rad
 
mtnbiker66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The old Mountains
Posts: 8,206

Bikes: Blur LT

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A#1 Jerk!!!! If his dog may bite he should keep it at home.The only people I have ever had trouble with are hikers with dogs.Lots of horses where I ride and no conflicts with them.
__________________
Like a circus monkey on a stolen Harley......
mtnbiker66 is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 07:55 PM
  #13  
dirtbikedude
Gravity Is Yer Friend
 
dirtbikedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Over the Hill" and going down fast in the 805.
Posts: 2,961

Bikes: Scott Gambler, Scott Ransom, Kona Bear, Bianchi 928 Carbon/Chorus, C'Dale Rize4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Around your area you will encounter a lot of hikers that will not like you because you are on a bike. Best to just blow by them with a loud BRAAAAP!!! Just kidding.

The trails around there are always being fought over by the cyclists, hikers and equine riders. I always put my cowbell on when I go to places like that and try to extend some courtesy to the non-wheeled type of user. Though I usually do not encouter the a-holes for two reasons 1- they are afraid to say anything to me because, as my wife would put it, I look like a thug 2- I out weigh most trail users by almost 100lbs.


dirtbikedude is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 09:47 PM
  #14  
Sasquatchula
Flowbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: NorCal
Posts: 318
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ahh, welcome to the land of the MUT,where everyone but you has the right to be there.
Ha-ha.
I agree with all, you were perfectly in the right and he was an A-hole.Sadly, all I can say is get used to the fact that you,as the cyclist, will almost always be the villain on an MUT. I accept this, as seeing 200lbs of metal and muscle barreling down on me would make me cr*p my pants So no doubt granny and her precious fluff-ums are going apopleptic Best thing I've done is invest in a plastic referee whistle. Lets people(and those larger people eaters) know that you're heading there way.
Sasquatchula is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 10:34 PM
  #15  
supcom
You need a new bike
 
supcom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Normal rule of thumb is you yield to pedestrians and horses. Dogs are on their own. Slowing down to pass the gentleman with the dog at a wide spot in the trail is the correct thing to do. As far as risking a bite, the owner is liable for any damages his dog causes. He is responsible for keeping his dog under control.
supcom is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 10:40 PM
  #16  
jc1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I guess the thing that kills me is that we were already at such a slow pace, with the kids on the singe track a power walker would have barreled down on him faster than we did. Heck, I think my feet were on the ground when I passed him, I was going so slow.

I was just there with the kids to check out the trail for the first time.

I hate to think how this guy would have reacted if I was actually riding the trail at my pace, certainly I would have passed him much faster and still considered it a safe passing speed/distance.

Apperently he has a personal peave regarding bikers.

Anyway, now I know for sure it was him and not me......we will be back out there next weekend to discover more of the trail.
jc1 is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 11:10 PM
  #17  
CranxOC
Senior Member
 
CranxOC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: OC, California
Posts: 504

Bikes: '04 Specialized Stumpy FSR Pro (Frame and Shock Only)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jc1
First opportunity for a trail ride. Had my 10 and 6 year olds along with their BMX bikes. Hit the Fullerton loop for a slow paced 1hr or so in and back.

We passed a guy twice, once in and once out who was walking his dog. On the way out we passed him on a wide fire road section. Our pace was slow and we passed with plenty of room.

Our second pass was on a narrower section. We slowed way down and waited for the trail to be wide enough to pass safely. While waiting at a street crossing the guy catches up and begins to rant about animials having the right of way. How my kids are "riding their bikes back and forth on the trail" and how we are in danger of getting bit by a dog.

I explained to him that 1) this a busy trail, especially on the weekends. 2)as far as I know this is a bike trail too 3) we slowed down and passed him very safely.

I actually stopped and read the trail rules to my kids after that and still don't see where this guy is coming from. We actually passed a few other walkers/riders/joggers all who seemed to either be concentrating on their own excercise or otherwise were very friendly.

So the question is....did I just encounter a random A-hole on my first trail ride, or did we miss something.
This is funny because the one and only time I was ever bitten by a dog on a trail was on the Fullerton Loop. I was on one of the singletrack portions and a couple with a rottweiler was coming the other way. I pulled over, stopped and stepped off the trail into some trees. As they past me, the dog started sniffing and they said "Don't worry, he doesn't bite." No sooner did they say that when their dog lunged for my throat. Fortunately, I was faster and he was on a leash so he only clipped by side and tore my jersey but, nonetheless, I no longer trust dogs and dog owners on the trails.

As for your experience, it sounds like you just enountered an idiot. I always yell "coming through" as politely as possible from a distance in order to allow other trail users to react and, thus far, I've never heard a complaint. Common courtesy and lots of warning will go a long way.


KillerB: could you give any more moronic advice? Hmmm, let's see, brandish a firearm in order to utilize it as an attitude adjuster...friggin brilliant. As a former cop I can tell all of you that people like this are dangerous jerks who should not be disgracing our trails with their polluted presence. Sorry, KB, you've really crossed the line with this one.
CranxOC is offline  
Old 05-22-05, 11:27 PM
  #18  
jc1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 52
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Killer B
Pack a sidearm like I do, and that'll usually keep the rude remarks to a minimum.... Even the ones with Rotweiller's and Pit Bull's show respect. I've been bit once by an Austrailian Shepperd. I hope I never have to use my weapon, but I have every right to carry & use it if necessary.... Nuf said. Try to get along if you can. You'll sometimes encounter A$$holes no matter where you go or what you do. It's a part of life I suppose....

I did not really take this seriously.

I don't know of any right to carry a sidearm, what makes you think you have the right to carry a firearm on a public trail?

You must have been kidding, right?
jc1 is offline  
Old 05-23-05, 06:36 AM
  #19  
dirtbikedude
Gravity Is Yer Friend
 
dirtbikedude's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Over the Hill" and going down fast in the 805.
Posts: 2,961

Bikes: Scott Gambler, Scott Ransom, Kona Bear, Bianchi 928 Carbon/Chorus, C'Dale Rize4

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jc1
I did not really take this seriously.

I don't know of any right to carry a sidearm, what makes you think you have the right to carry a firearm on a public trail?

You must have been kidding, right?

I took it seriously because I know riders who do. As for the right to carry, in CA. you can carry it but it can not be loaded (kind of ironic) and you will get stopped if a cop sees you with it. There are some states now that are licensing regular citizens to carry concealed. I cought a quick blurb about it in one of my hunting mags but I am not sure which states as I have not read the entire mag yet.

Hopefully this wont hijack the thread too much

dirtbikedude is offline  
Old 05-23-05, 06:52 AM
  #20  
Dr. Moto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 375

Bikes: Motobecane, Douglas, Trek

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Devoidarex
Usually, I just slow down and coast, and the clicking sound of the drivetrain makes them look over their shoulder. When they see me, they generally move over. However, a few times I've had to call out, and one time the two women I was calling two both jumped and screeched (I totally startled them, I guess).

I can't figure out a better way to let my presence known. I prefer to ride when the trail traffic is lightest (early morning and dinnertime).
The yelling does startle people, especially if you get too close first. What I've done, which seems to work well, is whistle a tune as I approach. It sounds stupid, but it gets attention without startling anyone. This only works if a) you can whistle, b) you're riding slowly enough to be heard.
Dr. Moto is offline  
Old 05-23-05, 06:54 AM
  #21  
Dr. Moto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 375

Bikes: Motobecane, Douglas, Trek

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
ic1 -- ignore all the rant responses, i.e., "pack a weapon." You set a good example for your kids with the way you handled it.
Dr. Moto is offline  
Old 05-23-05, 07:26 AM
  #22  
DonCooper
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hamilton, Ontario,Canada
Posts: 9

Bikes: Trek Fuel, Giant OCR

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
On the Hamilton - Brantford rail trail ( Ontario, Canada ) I used to often see these three women walking. Usually it appeared that they were picking up rocks or something. Anyways, one always wore a sign on her back -- I mean literally a wooden sign on a rope from her neck -- and written on it in big letters was "ring your bell !".
Certainly there are a lot of psychopathic idiots out there, either on bikes or walking. Ringing your bike bell before passing a walker is a good idea but may also have unexpected results, so always leave as much room as you can while passing. I was out MTBing with my Club and we returned to town along the rail trail : we rang our bells as we approached people, as normal. A man and woman were walking along with children, and as I went past them the man was cursing and swearing at us -- complaining that we were ringing our bells. You have no real idea what the walker will DO when they hear the bell. Will they go left, right, or stop, or what? Speaking of which:
A couple years ago I was riding on a multi-use trail with my daughter, who would have been 8 years old at the time. She does as I've taught her -- rings her bell, then carefully passes walkers. Again, a man and a woman walking with children , but this particular time when the guy hears the bike bell he lashes out to the side with his fist, without even looking ... he wanted to hit a cyclist, and he didn't care who. Just out for a nice family walk, you know. The only reason he missed her was because she was riding as far to the side as possible.
On the other hand I've had walkers thank me for ringing my bell and slowing as I passed them; the other day a fellow called me a "gentleman" for doing so ( hahaha ! ). But in general I consider walkers a sort of unpredictable trail hazard, to be avoided as much as possible.
DonCooper is offline  
Old 05-23-05, 07:41 AM
  #23  
outdoorboy
ODB to those that know me
 
outdoorboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 366

Bikes: Gary Fisher Tasajara (undergoing a total rebuild), Giant NRS, Giant OCR C3

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
We have some nice Urban MUT's in Little Rock. Some with a lot of dog walking (on and off leash) activities. Mountian bikers have trained here for quite a while and I have never had a problem on the trails with dogs. I think a lot of it has to do with everyone who uses them just being used to it. I actually have more porblems on my road bike when I get off on paved walking trails.
outdoorboy is offline  
Old 05-23-05, 07:46 AM
  #24  
hubs
@#$% cars
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 405

Bikes: '02 Schwinn Frontier;'03 Fisher Tiburon; '04 Raleigh Companion; 04 Dahon SpeedPro; 69 Raleigh Sport fixed

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Around here there is no predictable and no norm ... like DonCooper's experience. No matter what you do, you will get a mixed bag response. Even trails with clear rules (walk to the right, for instance) many people will do something else (walk toward oncoming traffic). It's hard to figure out. I generally slow to pass pedestrians. I don't say "on your left" because so many people have moved to their left, straight into my path, when I've done it. I sometimes ring my bell (if that's the bike I'm riding) or try to make some noise. I like to have brakes that squeal for this purpose. That sends just about the right message ... and then I can still look gracious, smiling and slow as I go around and say "good morning". I give dogs a wide berth. For horses I will stop or whatever it takes to make visual contact with the rider. I don't want any of us getting hurt.

If you hadn't had the slower kids with you ... this dog-guy never would have had a chance to say anything. You'd have been gone. As I suppose most of us are, when the slower traffic has a complaint.
hubs is offline  
Old 05-23-05, 07:52 AM
  #25  
GV27
Light Makes Right
 
GV27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Green Mountain, Colorado
Posts: 1,520

Bikes: Gianni Motta Criterium, Dean Hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jc1
I did not really take this seriously.

I don't know of any right to carry a sidearm, what makes you think you have the right to carry a firearm on a public trail?

You must have been kidding, right?
He must live in "The West" Which does not include California, Oregon and Washington but rather Nevada, Wyoming, Utah, Colorado, etc. People in a lot of these places are allowed to carry a sidearm as long as they either display them in plain site or hold an easy-to-get concealed weapon permit. I guess his tone wasn't that soft, but I don't think he was talking about waving it around. You do get respect with a piece strapped to your hip. Don't have to pull it out, gesture to it or anything else - people notice. Of course, this isn't an option for most Americans.

Personally, I'm way too much of a weight weenie to carry my piece on a ride!

C
GV27 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.