Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Mountain Biking
Reload this Page >

Advocating new Single-tracks in my town ... so much ignorant hate

Mountain Biking Mountain biking is one of the fastest growing sports in the world. Check out this forum to discuss the latest tips, tricks, gear and equipment in the world of mountain biking.

Advocating new Single-tracks in my town ... so much ignorant hate

Reply

Old 12-14-17, 10:41 AM
  #1  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Advocating new Single-tracks in my town ... so much ignorant hate

I found out that this is the vision people have of me as a mountain biker

25348812_10155242836409226_5211224293890707844_n.jpg

Here's a local news story on the project: Proposed mountain bike trails cause controversy in Minnetonka - Story | KMSP

The Hypno Toad is interviewed (not the crazy old coot that talked about corp mountain bike money), and my drop-bar Pugsley is in the cover shot for the story (that's kinda cool).

First, in the intro to the story the anchor says: "Turn one park into a bike trail"??? The correct headline is "include a mountain bike trail in a park" SMH

The room was over full, I think there were 20 or more tables of 8 people each, so I'd estimate it was a crowd of 200 including city staff. We had table discussions about the pros and cons of 3 options: Trails in Big Willow Park; Trails in other city parks; and no trails in Minnetonka. Info was captured and collected by the city.

My table was civil, 3 resident advocates, 1 trail designer, 3 elderly plus one 'younger' concerned residents. The non-bikers at our table were all thinking of mountain bikes as the redbull fueled downhill racers.

The crazy old coot in the new story is not alone, Minnetonka is dominated by an elderly population, they don't understand the purposed trails; they are scared of loud and fast bikes killing the wild life and cutting down the tree and costing a fortune. The city leadership had the opportunity to educate, but did nothing. It was disheartening.

If anybody has interest/time, here's the cities forum *warning* it's a rabbits warren of misinformation, dumb comments, hate, and everything else you'd expect: City of Minnetonka, MN Footnote on the forum, I use my real name (Chris Nelson), somebody searched me on-line and accused me of being an outsider since I have a mailing address for the neighboring city, I shared a link to a map showing that zip code includes a huge section of our city.

This post is really just about crying in my beer. However, if you've advocated in similar proposals, I'd be interested to hear your story.

Last edited by Hypno Toad; 12-15-17 at 08:32 AM.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-17, 12:20 PM
  #2  
FrozenK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,036
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 174 Post(s)
Similar to what I've seen here in Anchorage. Every mountain bike trail sees opposition from people who just don't want bicycles on trails.

Up here the latest argument against them is bear safety. A local biologist -who doesn't want any new trails- has made it his mission to convince people that mountain biking is superduperdangerous in bear habitat. And that the only reason we don't see dozens of mailings every year is luck. He is completely ignoring the data -example: 8 solid years of purpose-buily mountain bike trails in Anchorage without any bear maulings. But between appeal to authority and people not bothering to think, he managed to delay construction of new trails for another season.

One thing I've learned is that, no matter what the project is, if you go to public involvement meetings at least one person hates it. I've seen it at work, when I'm involved on trail advocacy... everywhere. There is at least one person who's only purpose in life becomes to stop that project.
FrozenK is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-17, 12:26 PM
  #3  
JonathanGennick 
Senior Member
 
JonathanGennick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Munising, Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,728

Bikes: Priority 600, Priority Continuum, Devinci Dexter

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
Wow! That TV news segment didn't do cyclists any favors. All I can do is to cry in the beer with you, I"m afraid.
JonathanGennick is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-17, 12:45 PM
  #4  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Originally Posted by JonathanGennick View Post
Wow! That TV news segment didn't do cyclists any favors. All I can do is to cry in the beer with you, I"m afraid.
It was the local Fox station reporting, so fair and balanced wasn't gonna happen. LOL.



The trail designer at my table was a bit floored by the tension in the room. He said he's worked on the planning process with city around our area and this was much more angry than he's seen anywhere else.

Luckily, there is a great set of trails in Theodore Wirth Park in Minneapolis, about 12 miles from my house. I bike over there about once a month for some fun, so that will continue to be my single-track fix for now. I need to consider myself lucky to have trails close enough to bike to.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-17, 11:29 AM
  #5  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Quick update, text from Ben, one of our leaders: This past Saturday morning a group of eighteen MTB trail advocates volunteered at Big Willow Park, removing invasive buckthorn. Our efforts are clearing the way for the growth of native species and making Big Willow a better place for all users! This is just the latest example of the engagement by the local biking community and demonstrates how proposed MTB trails gives more local outdoor enthusiasts a reason to care for our city parks. City of Minnetonka's Natural Resources staff is delighted with this community engagement, which could be transformative in our city’s restoration efforts.

The 'fruits' of our efforts:

IMG_20171216_113641403.jpg

It was great mental therapy to get together with people advocating the new trails, and do something very positive for a park I grew up in.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-17, 12:17 PM
  #6  
GrainBrain
Senior Member
 
GrainBrain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Central Io-way
Posts: 817

Bikes: LeMond Zurich, Giant Talon 29er

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 401 Post(s)


I hope all goes well - kinda wish we could get some of that snow down in central Iowa.

What was up with the mtb corporation comment in the video? I also read the forum posts, laughed when I saw someone very opposed quote bumper stickers. "Mountain bicyclists eat their dead"

The elderly living facility sounds like the greatest challenge - that's like prodding a hornets nest!
GrainBrain is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-17, 03:18 PM
  #7  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Originally Posted by GrainBrain View Post


I hope all goes well - kinda wish we could get some of that snow down in central Iowa.

What was up with the mtb corporation comment in the video? I also read the forum posts, laughed when I saw someone very opposed quote bumper stickers. "Mountain bicyclists eat their dead"

The elderly living facility sounds like the greatest challenge - that's like prodding a hornets nest!


It's kinda funny that the senior apartment is so opposed to change (single-track trails)... 'cause they just built that seniors apartment last year.

To the "outside interests" and "forcing change in our city for their interests" comments ... a large company with many locations around town forced this seniors apartment in as quickly as possible, breaking leases with businesses that were on that site. We had a long relationship with a dog boarding facility that was on that property, they was forced out far ahead of schedule, leaving people scrambling to rebook their dogs - including me with a reservation for Thanksgiving week. It took them nearly two years to get a new building set up for boarding dogs.

I know too much about the history of this area and this current oppositions to bike trails just gets my blood pressure up!
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-17, 10:06 AM
  #8  
UtahRider
Senior Member
 
UtahRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Grand Junction, CO
Posts: 207

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Camber FSR

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
As far as I know, no problems around here in GJ about mountain bikers on trails. **** mountain bikers are building them.
UtahRider is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-17, 08:21 AM
  #9  
DMC707 
Senior Member
 
DMC707's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Oklahoma City
Posts: 3,356

Bikes: Too many to list

Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 683 Post(s)
Originally Posted by UtahRider View Post
As far as I know, no problems around here in GJ about mountain bikers on trails. **** mountain bikers are building them.
Exactly !

Who the heck comes out with saws, axes and shovels to keep things groomed. --- Yes we do it for us but it has a benevolent side effect of keeeping the areas clear for hikers and dog walkers too
DMC707 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-18, 01:03 PM
  #10  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
We had another informational meeting this week and more local news coverage that is the equivillant of going to social media, taking a couple comments and pictures, and call it 'news' - Minnetonka Residents Split Over Mountain Bike Trail In Park « WCCO | CBS Minnesota

" ... there are a bunch of irresponsible, what I call kamikazes,” John Richards said.

I created this for John:

Untitled.jpg

Despite some ill-informed, grumpy old people, this meeting was much better than the December meeting. The city showed leadership, and educated the group about the proposed trails. It sounds like we'll move forward, just need to figure out where the 'not in my backyard' crowd is weakest. We get another meeting with the full park board next month, this will be to decide about moving forward and next steps.

Last edited by Hypno Toad; 01-11-18 at 01:17 PM.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-18, 12:32 PM
  #11  
Leebo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North of Boston
Posts: 5,221

Bikes: Kona Dawg, Surly 1x1, Karate Monkey, Rockhopper, Crosscheck , Burley Runabout,

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 657 Post(s)
Good job with the weed removals. Keep stirring the pot. MA rider here, long time Nemba trail builder and rider here. So this would be for new trails? Most of what we build are multi purpose trails, hikers and dog walkers too. Did you get that clean up pic to the local paper? Got a mt bike club in the area? Seek them out. Get the whole community involved. One of my local areas was in danger of being developed, just a switch in the town board, it might of happened. 7 years, it is now classed as open space. We built boardwalk, trails, signage, had open houses and guided trail walks. Did some clean ups( 2 dumpsters of tires) Involved bird watcher and historical groups for walks. Had girl scouts sell stuff at the trail head. Dog walkers too are some of the biggest users. In the end, at a town meeting vote, they all realized it is a great reasource for all to use. Please post back here with some updates an info.
Leebo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-18, 01:58 PM
  #12  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
Good job with the weed removals. Keep stirring the pot. MA rider here, long time Nemba trail builder and rider here. So this would be for new trails? Most of what we build are multi purpose trails, hikers and dog walkers too. Did you get that clean up pic to the local paper? Got a mt bike club in the area? Seek them out. Get the whole community involved. One of my local areas was in danger of being developed, just a switch in the town board, it might of happened. 7 years, it is now classed as open space. We built boardwalk, trails, signage, had open houses and guided trail walks. Did some clean ups( 2 dumpsters of tires) Involved bird watcher and historical groups for walks. Had girl scouts sell stuff at the trail head. Dog walkers too are some of the biggest users. In the end, at a town meeting vote, they all realized it is a great reasource for all to use. Please post back here with some updates an info.
We have a strong advocacy group in Minnesota - MORC - they have built and maintained about a dozen trails in our area. It's painful to see the people in my town act like this is a brand new idea; we have so many successful trails in the area.

Over 90% of the MORC designed/maintained trails are designated multi-use. I'm not sure that's helping our local support since they are certain a mountain biker will run them down and kill them. MORC has zero reports of bike-hiker collisions on their 85+ miles of trails and many years. But, you know, facts aren't really a thing when you don't want "it" in your backyard.

We need to do more outreach, I think the local newsletter covered our invasive species... but not huge coverage.

The meeting early next month will be interesting and decisive.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-18, 02:15 PM
  #13  
Leebo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North of Boston
Posts: 5,221

Bikes: Kona Dawg, Surly 1x1, Karate Monkey, Rockhopper, Crosscheck , Burley Runabout,

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 657 Post(s)
One the comments was noise and safety? Hmmm. Build on the successful trails things, any bikes shops for support? Bikers that support area business food/beer etc? Is the trail work up keep covered? Good relationships with the town? Check out the 2 books that IMBA has put out. Not a first step but there are ways to put those safety concerns to rest. Good sight lines and trail signs? Leash dog laws, one way trails for some? Another park I was involved with concerned dogs, they were the biggest user, no one knew until the study. We then made a huge ( 2x football field) an off leash dog area, win, win. Know about stacked loops? Make 1 short loop, say 1/2 to 1 mile or so, closest to the parking lot, walk and dog only. No bikes. Lots of options. HS kids have bike teams? Get the town chamber of commerce on your side? Whole businesses economies are built around the eco tourism of mt bikers. Food, lodging etc.
Leebo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-18, 05:24 PM
  #14  
Salubrious
Senior Member
 
Salubrious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,155
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
I'm here in the Twin Cities also, and MORC does a great job.

What kills me is that everywhere I go, the cycling community is always concerned about how we deal with the public in general, always warning us that we have be polite, respect signage and the environment, yada yada like we have to be told. Sure we're a bunch of nuts, but overall I see a lot of responsible people...

I've ridden on the Tour Divide a lot, here's an interesting story regarding small towns.

What the two-wheeled tourist can offer tiny towns ? High Country News

I think this applies to Crosby, MN, and it should to Minnetonka too.
Salubrious is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-18, 10:06 AM
  #15  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Quick update: The Minnetonka Park Board had their vote this week, the advisory group suggested we do not add single-track trails to Big Willow Park - but that the city study feasibility in Lone Lake Park.

The bummer is that the bike community put a lot of effort into Big Willow; now we are basically back to square one. Plus Big Willow is very close to my house (I'm selfish).

The upside is that Lone Lake will offer more room for longer trails and I think the bike community has done a great job getting the attention of the city and local business, so I feel like this will move forward - hopefully quickly.

My one nagging worry, the "not in my backyard" crowd will start whining around Lone Lake, just like they did with Big Willow. In fact, the first wave of "won't please somebody think the (enter absurd concern)" people made statements during the open-mic time. A bird watcher said that single-track trails will ruin the birds environment...

That comment section had me biting my lip bloody to avoid laughing out load, the stupid sh... stuff people will say. I couldn't be on that board, I'd be straight up rude.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-18, 06:57 AM
  #16  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
To those that are interested, there was an open house last week. I had nearly no time to attend, it was the day before our daughter's wedding. Luckily I had to drop off our dogs at the boarding house and drove right past the city hall, so I stopped for a couple minutes to add my comment to the record.

Here are two posts about the single-track trails in Lone Lake Park in Minnetonka:

Local paper: Minnetonka debuts Lone Lake Park mountain bike trail drafts

Blog post: https://barbecuediguana.wordpress.co...5/23/home-run/

Trail concept info: https://eminnetonka.com/images/recre...t%20poster.pdf
Funny side story, I just sold my house in Minnetonka, but my new house in neighboring Hopkins is closer to Lone Lake. So it'll be easier to get to the trails and easier to be a part of the trail crew.

Last edited by Hypno Toad; 05-23-18 at 06:59 AM. Reason: added poster
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-18, 04:26 PM
  #17  
csmitty2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
just build a trial without them knowing, it happens all the time where I'm from
csmitty2 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-18, 06:41 AM
  #18  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
It has happened here, in these parks, and that's created hostility/conflict.

Minneapolis (and surrounding areas) has a very strong trail design and maintenance organization along with a strong community of trail volunteers. We really should not be creating rogue trails. Our goal is legitimate trails for high school teams and the community in general.

Failing that, I'll continue to enjoy the rogue trails that have been in these parks since I was a kid in the '70s.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-29-18, 11:03 AM
  #19  
RubenAlonzo
Senior Member
 
RubenAlonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Laredo, Tx
Posts: 78

Bikes: Scott Aspect 970

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Hypno Toad, thank you for all your efforts man. Every little bit helps us all in the long run.
RubenAlonzo is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-18, 02:31 AM
  #20  
tungsten
Senior Member
 
tungsten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 65

Bikes: 1962 Cinelli Mod. "B"/1988 Bailey 531c

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Why you building in parks don't you have any mountains? Small ones even?

Oh wait.......

Last edited by tungsten; 06-03-18 at 12:44 PM.
tungsten is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-18, 07:30 AM
  #21  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Tonight is a big night in Minnetonka, the Park Board will make a recommendation on the Lone Lake single-track trails. The opposition is making a serious effort to stop any single-track trails in Minnetonka. Here's an interesting post about an opposition meeting: https://www.citymtb.org/home/going-t...u-dont-have-to - I've been informed that this post is written by a strong bike advocate, and they may or may not be complete/accurately reporting all the details of this meeting.

I'll post an update tomorrow about tonight park board meeting.
Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-18, 08:50 AM
  #22  
Hypno Toad
meh
Thread Starter
 
Hypno Toad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,352

Bikes: 17 Breezer Radar Pro; 15 Surly Pugsley; 13 Felt Z85; 11 Globe Daily; 09 Kona Dew Drop; 96 Mondonico

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)

Whelp, the haters found another way to whine and throw a fit. I can't see this do anything but delay the trails and add costs to the city.

July 9 Mountain Bike Concept Plan Discussion Delayed

The City of Minnetonka has been informed that a petition has been filed requesting the city to conduct an Environmental Assessment Worksheet (EAW) for the https://eminnetonka.com/current-projects/other-projects/1782-mountain-bike-trails-project?utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_name=&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=]proposed mountain biking trail in Lone Lake Park.Before the council can review the trail concept plan, it must first review the EAW request. As a result, the July 9, 2018 city council review of the concept plan will be delayed.

An email update will be sent when the city council is scheduled to review the EAW petition.

More Information

Visit eminnetonka.com/mountainbiking for more details regarding the EAW process.


Hypno Toad is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 07-10-18, 07:29 AM
  #23  
JonathanGennick 
Senior Member
 
JonathanGennick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Munising, Michigan, USA
Posts: 3,728

Bikes: Priority 600, Priority Continuum, Devinci Dexter

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 508 Post(s)
That's a discouraging outcome to be sure.
JonathanGennick is offline  
Reply With Quote

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service