Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Mountain Biking
Reload this Page >

Hydraulic brakes

Notices
Mountain Biking Mountain biking is one of the fastest growing sports in the world. Check out this forum to discuss the latest tips, tricks, gear and equipment in the world of mountain biking.

Hydraulic brakes

Old 06-10-22, 10:04 PM
  #1  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Hydraulic brakes

I recently purchased my first MTB. It's a 2012 Salsa Horsethief. The bike was cheap, rear brakes were very soft on the test ride, I figured bleed, at most caliper kit should work, cheap fix. I got a caliper kit and did the full rebuild on the rear, I bleed the system twice as the fluid was a bit off colored. The 2nd time through, I cannot get the calipers back in and my handle is very soft for the rear brakes. I have elixir (avid) 5 hydraulic disc. I can hear a burping sound when trying to pressurize the system on the handle. Will I need to do a rebuild on the handle as well? Did I find the new weak spot? or am I missing something? TIA
GMoser85 is offline  
Old 06-11-22, 08:18 AM
  #2  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,596

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Turner 5-Spot, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2499 Post(s)
Liked 2,133 Times in 1,192 Posts
Originally Posted by GMoser85 View Post
I recently purchased my first MTB. It's a 2012 Salsa Horsethief. The bike was cheap, rear brakes were very soft on the test ride, I figured bleed, at most caliper kit should work, cheap fix. I got a caliper kit and did the full rebuild on the rear, I bleed the system twice as the fluid was a bit off colored. The 2nd time through, I cannot get the calipers back in and my handle is very soft for the rear brakes. I have elixir (avid) 5 hydraulic disc. I can hear a burping sound when trying to pressurize the system on the handle. Will I need to do a rebuild on the handle as well? Did I find the new weak spot? or am I missing something? TIA
What do you mean by ď canít get the caliper back inď?
Kapusta is offline  
Old 06-11-22, 10:39 AM
  #3  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 10,018

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2908 Post(s)
Liked 2,103 Times in 1,394 Posts
Like cxwrench said in your duplicate thread in Bicycle Mechanics, get some new brakes. The old Avid and SRAM brakes were not so good and there are plenty of relatively low cost brakes on the market today that are so much better than those old brakes. A set of Deore brakes would be an excellent choice, reasonably priced and really excellent quality. Plus Mineral Oil is easy to use and Shimano brakes are easily bleed you could also go with Tektro and still do pretty darn well. I had some Juicy 7s on a bike and I just replaced them with some Shimano brakes I had laying around and they were way better, I think I gave away the Juicys I just didn't want to deal with them at all.
veganbikes is offline  
Likes For veganbikes:
Old 06-11-22, 07:38 PM
  #4  
whydoibike93
Member
 
whydoibike93's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2021
Location: longview,washington
Posts: 36

Bikes: 19 pitch,05 7300fx

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 6 Posts
I just bought sram level brakes and love them
whydoibike93 is offline  
Old 06-11-22, 07:39 PM
  #5  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 795 Times in 480 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
What do you mean by ď canít get the caliper back inď?
Pad.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 06-11-22, 08:38 PM
  #6  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,596

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Turner 5-Spot, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2499 Post(s)
Liked 2,133 Times in 1,192 Posts
Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Pad.
Still clear as mud.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 06-11-22, 09:03 PM
  #7  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 795 Times in 480 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Still clear as mud.
My wife, despite having a PhD from one of the best institutes in the world, can't or doesn't distinguish between tires and wheels.

I ruthlessly exploited this to get an additional wheel-set.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Likes For Polaris OBark:
Old 06-11-22, 09:07 PM
  #8  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 795 Times in 480 Posts
Anyway, the proper fix for Avid brakes is to take them off and put them in the hazardous waste disposal bin, and replace them with Shimano. Even Shimano's worst brakes will be a significant improvement. It took me about 10 years to do this, and my only regret was not having done it 9 or more years previously.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Likes For Polaris OBark:
Old 06-11-22, 09:10 PM
  #9  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 795 Times in 480 Posts
$130 for this pre-bled pair: https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=75189
Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 06-12-22, 08:44 AM
  #10  
Canker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,577
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 267 Post(s)
Liked 120 Times in 73 Posts
Avid Juicys were poop, elixers are fine. Have elixer 7s and XTs both are fine, XTs bleed a bit easier but elixers are way easier than the old juicys. Actually if we want to keep throwing out anecdotal evidence my XT's rear caliper seized when there were only a year old.
Until you figure out the pad/caliper issue it is hard to figure out anything else. Did you bleed with a bleed block in the caliper? If you just pushed the pistons out then no wonder you are having problems.
Canker is offline  
Old 06-12-22, 10:05 AM
  #11  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
What do you mean by ď canít get the caliper back inď?

The pistons. I didnt leave the bleed blocker in while doing the handle, I put the pads in. After taking pads out, I cannot get pistons to go back down to put pads on and go over rotor. Sorry I wasn't clear. The pistons were much stiffer putting on the new gaskets. I did lube them with the DOT fluid.

This is my first time doing this on a bike. YouTube videos, didn't look to hard, if I only pay attention to what I'm doing.
GMoser85 is offline  
Old 06-12-22, 10:06 AM
  #12  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post

Will these bolt right on and line up? More the mounting to the frame.
GMoser85 is offline  
Old 06-12-22, 10:18 AM
  #13  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 795 Times in 480 Posts
Originally Posted by GMoser85 View Post
Will these bolt right on and line up? More the mounting to the frame.
They attach directly or by adaptor to post-mount and ISO-mount frames and forks.

I'll go take a few pics of mine.





Last edited by Polaris OBark; 06-12-22 at 10:22 AM.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 06-12-22, 10:37 AM
  #14  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,187
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 631 Post(s)
Liked 795 Times in 480 Posts
Originally Posted by GMoser85 View Post
The pistons. I didnt leave the bleed blocker in while doing the handle, I put the pads in. After taking pads out, I cannot get pistons to go back down to put pads on and go over rotor. Sorry I wasn't clear. The pistons were much stiffer putting on the new gaskets. I did lube them with the DOT fluid.

This is my first time doing this on a bike. YouTube videos, didn't look to hard, if I only pay attention to what I'm doing.
Open the bleed plug on the brake lever, put a paper towel or something around it to catch excess fluid, and then press the pistons all the way back into the calipers gently with a plastic tire lever (or something equivalent). Re-close the bleed plug. Don't touch the levers until the pads and wheel with disc are re-positioned.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 06-12-22, 10:53 AM
  #15  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,596

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Turner 5-Spot, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2499 Post(s)
Liked 2,133 Times in 1,192 Posts
Originally Posted by GMoser85 View Post
The pistons. I didnt leave the bleed blocker in while doing the handle, I put the pads in. After taking pads out, I cannot get pistons to go back down to put pads on and go over rotor. Sorry I wasn't clear. The pistons were much stiffer putting on the new gaskets. I did lube them with the DOT fluid.

This is my first time doing this on a bike. YouTube videos, didn't look to hard, if I only pay attention to what I'm doing.
OK, got it.

What I believe happened was that without the bleed block in there, it allowed the pistons too move too far out when you did the bleed. The problem is that allowed the system to be overfilled with fluid.

You need to let the excess fluid out of there. You need to open the port on the lever, then wedge the bleed block in there. That should push some fluid out. That may be all you need to do (and not have to do another bleed).

While is is true that Juicys were not very good, I would try what I mentioned before buying new ones.

Last edited by Kapusta; 06-12-22 at 10:57 AM.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 06-12-22, 12:44 PM
  #16  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
They attach directly or by adaptor to post-mount and ISO-mount frames and forks.

I'll go take a few pics of mine.




thank you. I will try to let out excess oil through bleed port and if that doesn't work I will upgrade to these brakes. The bracket looks like the one on the bike now, just for the elixir.
GMoser85 is offline  
Old 06-12-22, 12:45 PM
  #17  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
OK, got it.

What I believe happened was that without the bleed block in there, it allowed the pistons too move too far out when you did the bleed. The problem is that allowed the system to be overfilled with fluid.

You need to let the excess fluid out of there. You need to open the port on the lever, then wedge the bleed block in there. That should push some fluid out. That may be all you need to do (and not have to do another bleed).

While is is true that Juicys were not very good, I would try what I mentioned before buying new ones.
Thank you. I will give this a try and go from there.
GMoser85 is offline  
Old 06-14-22, 06:01 PM
  #18  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
I let out the excess oil, the handle is still very soft and every time I try to pressurize the system, it sucks all the oil in the syringe and the air doesn't stop when trying to bleed the handle. What causes that?

If I can fix these, I would like to transfer them to my cargo bike and trash the mechanical disc brakes.
GMoser85 is offline  
Old 06-14-22, 09:50 PM
  #19  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 10,018

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2908 Post(s)
Liked 2,103 Times in 1,394 Posts
You want to trash what could be a decent brake (probably not for a cargo bike though) for a brake that people never really liked and had problems as you are having repeatedly when you could just get a set of Shimano brakes that work just fine and don't have the issues? I am baffled. I like vintage components to a point but if they weren't so good in their day or didn't hold up they belong in the trash or in a modern art masterpiece. SRAM/Avid back then didn't know how to do brakes, they sucked so frequently you saw SRAM derailleurs and Shimano brakes.

I know you really want to get them working and I am not discouraging that zeal and drive but running up a hill that ends abruptly at a cliff with a big drop to sharp jagged rocks just ain't worth it. There a better places to run that don't end abruptly and will allow you to enjoy the run and find other fun things along the way without issues.
veganbikes is offline  
Old 06-18-22, 07:28 AM
  #20  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
You want to trash what could be a decent brake (probably not for a cargo bike though) for a brake that people never really liked and had problems as you are having repeatedly when you could just get a set of Shimano brakes that work just fine and don't have the issues? I am baffled. I like vintage components to a point but if they weren't so good in their day or didn't hold up they belong in the trash or in a modern art masterpiece. SRAM/Avid back then didn't know how to do brakes, they sucked so frequently you saw SRAM derailleurs and Shimano brakes.

I know you really want to get them working and I am not discouraging that zeal and drive but running up a hill that ends abruptly at a cliff with a big drop to sharp jagged rocks just ain't worth it. There a better places to run that don't end abruptly and will allow you to enjoy the run and find other fun things along the way without issues.

It's a bit engrained. Being around cars and a dad who will fix anything motorized, always something laying around to "upgrade" something else that breaks. I did give up on them as it was going to cost more $$ for a lever rebuild kit than replace them with a Shimano set. Thanks for your input.
GMoser85 is offline  
Old 06-22-22, 09:03 PM
  #21  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 10,018

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2908 Post(s)
Liked 2,103 Times in 1,394 Posts
Originally Posted by GMoser85 View Post
It's a bit engrained. Being around cars and a dad who will fix anything motorized, always something laying around to "upgrade" something else that breaks. I did give up on them as it was going to cost more $$ for a lever rebuild kit than replace them with a Shimano set. Thanks for your input.
Sure fixing stuff is great but sometimes it just isn't worth it. The Shimano's will be a solid pick!
veganbikes is offline  
Old 06-23-22, 04:11 AM
  #22  
Kapusta
Advanced Slacker
 
Kapusta's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 5,596

Bikes: Soma Fog Cutter, Surly Wednesday, Turner 5-Spot, Canfielld Tilt

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2499 Post(s)
Liked 2,133 Times in 1,192 Posts
Originally Posted by GMoser85 View Post
I let out the excess oil, the handle is still very soft and every time I try to pressurize the system, it sucks all the oil in the syringe and the air doesn't stop when trying to bleed the handle. What causes that?

If I can fix these, I would like to transfer them to my cargo bike and trash the mechanical disc brakes.
iím not really following what youíre saying here. I donít know what ďpressurizing the systemĒhere means.

Youíve got some issues with terminology here. Itís understandable for someone who hasnít worked on the stuff very much, but it makes it hard to help you diagnose stuff. is there a video that you have been following to do this procedure that you could link to? or could you post a link to the instructions that youíre following?

Whatever you do, donít spend any more money on these. I would not have bothered with the caliper rebuild kit, but that is done.

Last edited by Kapusta; 06-23-22 at 04:15 AM.
Kapusta is offline  
Old 07-09-22, 09:51 AM
  #23  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
iím not really following what youíre saying here. I donít know what ďpressurizing the systemĒhere means.

Youíve got some issues with terminology here. Itís understandable for someone who hasnít worked on the stuff very much, but it makes it hard to help you diagnose stuff. is there a video that you have been following to do this procedure that you could link to? or could you post a link to the instructions that youíre following?

Whatever you do, donít spend any more money on these. I would not have bothered with the caliper rebuild kit, but that is done.

Pressurizing the system by pulling the plunger out to get the air out and then pushing it back in with the oil. One is syringe is closed either on the caliper or the handle. I was following the video put out by aivd/sram on a brake bleed.
this is the video I was following. I followed their terminology for pressurizing the system. The pressure is what gives you bite as you pull the brake lever in.
GMoser85 is offline  
Old 07-09-22, 09:54 AM
  #24  
GMoser85
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Seattle
Posts: 42

Bikes: Salsa Horsethief, Kona Ute Longtail

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 7 Times in 4 Posts
I did end up buying some shimano brakes and they bolted right on, which was in the end a cheaper solution and much easier. They are working great without any issues. Thank you all for the help.
GMoser85 is offline  
Likes For GMoser85:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.