Dannihilator

What's with an Air shock doing on a DH bike?

bmadau

Saving some weight!

math2p14

If this is a 5th element then it is super durable for DH as well as the new fox stuff.

KleinMp99

And since its not.......


Maybe the bike is geared more towards a lighter rider, a woman rider or maybe its just more of a mountain cross type bike.

bmadau

It's a manitou with 5th technology licensed from Progressvie...

a2psyklnut

Yep, that's what I was going to add. Intense has a strong working relationship with Manitou, so chances are it's a new SPV type shock!

L8R

slcpunk21

Still doesn't make any sense. It's using air as the spring, so no matter how you do it, the seals still have to be tight enough to hold the air pressure necessary. That is what kills air shocks for DH and FR type riding, the seals cause more stiction because they have to hold the air so not as supple, plus they blow more often because of the bigger hits, the seals can not hold that type of pressure when hit very very hard alot!

Just my 2 cents.

a2psyklnut

As far as current technology dictates.

If someone were to ask you five years ago about a shock that elimates imput from the rider yet remains active from road impacts, what would you have said?

Not dissing you SLC, I agree that air shocks would probably be o.k., for very light weigh DHers, and would work, but just not the right application for the benefits from an air shock. It's just with the new technology comping out in regards to suspension, nothing surprises me these days.

L8R

PeterG1185

finally somebody posts something worth seeing. That is a dam nice ride. I'll bet that that air shock is on there because it saves a enough weight to make it worth it

bmadau

Air seals have come a long way, alone with lubricants. There are plenty of internally lubricated rubbers out there that really reduce sticktion. What you (slcpunk21) are speaking of is mostly due to urethane seals. I don't know what manitou is using though. Also, with the leaverage ratio involved with DH bike, I don't think the sticktion would be that pronounced.

To make another point, with an air can diameter of that size, it probably has a large air piston wich means lower preausre (force = pressure time area) so you can get a high air spring force with low pressure if you have a large piston. Example, fox float shocks take like 200psi to get a given sag, but the 5th air gets there with 120psi. A fox float has something like a 4:1 compression ratio so at the end of its travel you could see like 800 psi, where the 5th has a 2.5:1 ratio, so that makes only 300 psi ending pressure. You can't just make a statement like that w/o knowing the specifics of their design.

That shock probably only saves a pound off the coil shock too, which on a 45 lb bike makes how much of a difference?

slcpunk21

AND my point was that at some point the seals have to be able to take the high pressure of as you say 800psi at the highest or 120psi or less at times... either way the seals have to be tight enough to hold that pressure at some point, it's not as if the seals can get tighter and looser...so no matter what the seals have to be tight enough to hold pressure, so there in it's self it has stiction.

Yes there have been new seals designed that have helped do away with this... but compared to most coil shocks they still stick.

Granted I do not know what exact seals or complete internal specs of the manitou rear shock... but from my many years of experience no matter how anyone has made an air shock it does not compare to a coilover.... just my 2 cents.



edit: also thought about this, the air heats up as it is expanded and contracted being used as a spring... and on a DH course it would get extremely hot! This is not go.. it will change the way the shock acts!

I do want to see how it rides though.. if they can get it feeling like a coilover and take care of the heat issue I'd deffinately try it!

smracing

It's not a production shock. They are not going to be building them for production. They just made a couple to throw on the M3 to generate some gossip about the possibility of new technology comming from manitou. Don't expect to be able to get one. I expect the M3 will be speced with a 5th.

KleinMp99

Didnt you see the integrated air cooling system on the damn thing? For **** sake!!!!!

crashing_sux

So much mis-information here. DH bikes are getting lighter all of the time, most of the top pro's are riding 34-38lb bikes, not 45lb bikes. Manitou is targeting the Evolver at 1lb less than a current 5th element with a Ti spring. Seals can get stronger with air pressure, they can use the additional pressure to strengthen the seal. If this concept confuses you take a plunger and stick it to a window, the harder you pull, the stronger the seal gets because it is using pressure to add sealing force. An air shock will still have more stiction than a coil shock, but if you're running a spv shock then why would you care, spv shocks have stiction inherent in the compression damping anyway, it filters out low frequency input, you need a certain amount of force to get it moving....sounds like...wait for it.....stiction! And yes, heat will affect the air pressure, it can be worked around to some extent though. Heat will always affect shocks, it affects the damping by thinning the oil as it heats. They add external resoivors and cooling on some shocks to combat it, they can do a similar thing with the air shocks by making the air chamber out of aluminum and if things get really bad adding cooling fins to the body of the shock. They probably won't even have to go that far.

slcpunk21

I never said it couldn't be done with enough research, I was just saying by the looks of this one, it is still just an air shock......

I agree with you on the seal thing, all I ment was the seals can not loosen to creat less stiction on their own. But yes, they "can" change slightly depending on air pressure. My whole point was as you have also stated there will be more stiction (as of now) than a coilover. (oh and i'm not running an svp shock.... and again I never said those types of shocks don't have any....

So please point out "all" this mis-information you speak of... I think quite a few people here know what they are talking about. Just the lovely internet may not get things across as it was originally intended.

Oh and making the air chamber out of aluminum... can I please ask what you think it's made of now? Yup aluminum.... aluminum works great on transfering heat off of liquids much better than air, but if they could design some heat fins and an extra air chamber (as you have stated also) to allow the air to expand into that would probably make it work pretty well for a DH race day run... but as an all day shock, I still would be weery of the durabilty of it.

Well lets all see what happens with this shock! It should be very interesting!

a2psyklnut

To further exlaborate.

Regardless, my guess is that this would be a "Race Issue" bike only and intended for fewer runs as opposed to a comercially available option for "all day use". Or, not recommended for riders over a certain weight. I know many rider (who I have a deep seeded envy for) that only weigh 160 lbs MAX. Crap! I weighed more than that as a Junior in High School.

Of all the new products I've seen. It's apparent that most of the focus these last few years has been in suspension design. Specifically the internals of the shocks themselves. I would not be surprised at all that Manitou (and others) and concentrating their efforts on a durable air shock for a broader range of application. I could see the advantage for them to have a Freeride or Downhill air shock available to the masses in 2 or 3 years.

Not saying I would want to give up my coil over, but currently, I've been contemplating upgrading my Vanilla RC to a 5th or a Romic.

L8R

Jim311

I run a forklift at work that can support over 6000 pounds. If they can make seals that strong, I'm sure they can make some for mountain bikes

crashing_sux

The current M-1's are known as "race only" bikes that need to have the frames replaced every season or two or they start cracking and falling apart. People that race them don't mind because they are light. I see no reason they would change things with the M-3 so you're probably right about that.

crashing_sux

I never said that the current air chamber was not made out of aluminum, I only pointed it out to mention that it will help deal with heat buildup, as will having a larger chamber by increasing air volume and surface area.

Regarding the mis-information, it was basically this....

Still doesn't make any sense. It's using air as the spring, so no matter how you do it, the seals still have to be tight enough to hold the air pressure necessary. That is what kills air shocks for DH and FR type riding, the seals cause more stiction because they have to hold the air so not as supple, plus they blow more often because of the bigger hits, the seals can not hold that type of pressure when hit very very hard alot!

AND my point was that at some point the seals have to be able to take the high pressure of as you say 800psi at the highest or 120psi or less at times... either way the seals have to be tight enough to hold that pressure at some point, it's not as if the seals can get tighter and looser...so no matter what the seals have to be tight enough to hold pressure, so there in it's self it has stiction.

edit: also thought about this, the air heats up as it is expanded and contracted being used as a spring... and on a DH course it would get extremely hot! This is not go.. it will change the way the shock acts!

It's not a production shock. They are not going to be building them for production. They just made a couple to throw on the M3 to generate some gossip about the possibility of new technology comming from manitou. Don't expect to be able to get one. I expect the M3 will be speced with a 5th.

None of which is very accurate.

Air does heat up as it's compressed, but it cools as it's decompressed making it virtually a wash. Try taking a plastic coke bottle, empty it out and screw the lid back on. Now jump up and down on it a thousand times, pick it up and tell me how hot it is. And that's without having the benefit of a frame which will suck the heat out of it like a shock would. Not going to be a problem. I rode my Enduro with a fox air shock at whistler for a month, it doesn't have an external resovoir or a large air chamber. A few times this summer I stopped in the middle of runs and felt the shock, heat was never an issue.

Blowing seals isn't an issue any more either. Ask around at your local bike shop, coil over fox shocks and Romics blow seals 10 times more often than fox air shocks. When most shocks blow seals it's due to the compression circuit, not an air spring.

Racers are going to love the tunability of an adjustable volume air chamber shock as well, it will allow them to tune the spring rate and progressiveness much easier than with a coil over.

Will it add more stiction, yes, it's one more seal. So what, the important part is not if it adds more stiction, but if it's noticable and detrimental to your ride. Every bearing and pivot you add on a bike adds stiction, but it's such a small amount nobody notices. When is the last time you heard someone say "I can't stand my new four bar rear suspension, those extra pivots add so much stiction compared to a single pivot that I don't even want to ride my bike"?

slcpunk21

Ok... sorry, you are right about this... BUT you have to remember that you have friction from the shock itself that keeps the air heated. And like I said it's not that I'm saying i'm 100% on this wont work, just in my 8 years as being a bike mechanic I have seen many air shocks blow out seals and what not do to the friction from the air seals. (they have come along way in the past 2 years though). Also the seals as we have both agreed cause more stiction means there is more friction.. look at me I'm a poet!!... anyways, so this means the seals wear faster. (not saying they will always die early.. just point out things)With your bottle example.. very good! but the body of a shock holds air temp much better than a plastic bottle, also you have a HUGE air chamber on a bottle over a shock body, plus you could never jump on the bottle as fast as in comparision to a shock moving on a DH race course that would be equal in comparision to air volume. And I too have ridden an air shock and have felt it warm up considerably! But yes I have also had a coil over do the same, but it was the oil that was affected and has an expansion chamber for this reason... Not saying... that it still doesn't affect the ride.. just in my opinion has less chance of being affected as much.

Again I point out I have had many air shocks go threw my hands that have needed rebuilding before a years time, some were fox air shocks others werent. Let me see... I have seen more Romics blow up than anything else.. but that was early on, they have greatly improved their setup. A fox coil shock blowing... pffff... can't say I've had one in my shop that has ever blown DON't take this as I'm saying your wrong.. just that I have not seen this in my own hands, and I do not go by hearsay (spelling?)

Yes there is the posibility for there to be greater tunability. But again you do loose some slight small bump sensetivity with the air shock and yes as you stated with the spv or 5th element type shocks to that use air to also tune them. Not saying this is a killing point... just pointing out what I notice

And to this point.. I agree... to me I do notice, not saying everyone will and with the large bikes and different leverage ratio's you probably wont notice as much... just stating my 2 cents.

I agree with all your points... but we could both go back and forth and prove and disprove both our points... all I'm trying to point ot is some "possible" issues.... not ever saying this will never work in a million years... I'm looking forward to it working actually! Make my bike lighter and possibly ride the same... why the h-e- doulbe hockey sticks... not!

slcpunk21

I also wanted to know when you wanted to meet after school so we can fight? ...

crashing_sux

My mom will ground me if I get in any fights after school. Besides my point was not to argue as much as debate (fine line I know) which I think was accomplished. It always brings out the best and after going back and forth a little I think the thread is much more informative than it was after either of us posted alone.

Mission accomplished, thanks for being a good sport about it.

slcpunk21

Hey you too mate! Oh and you better get Mark out to ride more! He's working WAYYYY to much.

(that's assuming you're the guy that hooked him up with the Jr. T, if not.. then nevermind)

crashing_sux

I've been trying to get Mark out more but as you mentioned, he just works too damn much. And don't blame me for the Jr. T, I warned him how bad they are before I let him use it

Maelstrom 

When you move here we can arrange something.